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Bikes, Pictures, Stories & more => Chat, Offtopic, Meetings & Everything Else => Topic started by: RichardL on 17.11. 2020 14:24

Title: Mahindra BSA
Post by: RichardL on 17.11. 2020 14:24
This topic has a lot of different opinions, and for good reason. Here's one of the questions to consider.
Title: Re: Mahindra BSA
Post by: Greybeard on 17.11. 2020 14:58
I voted for increase. I feel sure that interest in classic triumphs must have grown since new Trumpets have been available.

Not that this matter will bother me. I don't intend to flog Emily.

PS: Ohbugger, I think I actually clicked on 'No effect'
Title: Re: Mahindra BSA
Post by: muskrat on 17.11. 2020 19:32
G'day Richard.
I haven't heard much about the Mahindra BSA of late. I think originally it should have been here by now.
I voted "no affect" in that down here the older Trihards have increased in $ but so has everything else.
Cheers
Title: Re: Mahindra BSA
Post by: Greybeard on 17.11. 2020 19:34
Affect or effect?
Title: Re: Mahindra BSA
Post by: WozzA on 17.11. 2020 21:42
My 2cents worth... I voted INCREASE because ...  IF they go the same way as the Enfields have they have re-vitalized the name, but every one wants the older Classic, pushing the priced up..   
Title: Re: Mahindra BSA
Post by: RichardL on 17.11. 2020 23:12
Affect or effect?

"Effect." Did you already know?
Title: Re: Mahindra BSA
Post by: Greybeard on 18.11. 2020 09:07
Affect or effect?

"Effect." Did you already know?
We sort of share a very strange language!

I have a fascinating book called The Adventure of English by Melvyn Bragg.

'In this book Melvyn Bragg shows us the remarkable story of the English language; from its beginnings as a minor guttural Germanic dialect to its position today as a truly established global language. THE ADVENTURE OF ENGLISH is not only an enthralling story of power, religion and trade, but also the story of people, and how their day-to-day lives shaped and continue to change the extraordinary language that is English.'
Title: Re: Mahindra BSA
Post by: BSA_54A10 on 19.11. 2020 10:07
There will be no difference.
It is way too long since BSA closed down for the name to mean anything to anyone under 50 and the over 50's are not going to want a new pretend BSA .
Next I seriously doubt that a single bike will leave the factory
particularly now as the UK has just announced a petrol power ban starting in 2035 .
Now they will have a market in South East Asia where there are a lot oof BSA's still in daily use and probably will sell a few in India for the same reason.
But the UK, USA or Aust market is just not there.
Enfields sell for the same reason as Cossacks & Urinals sell. novilty value for urban "look at me's " and that is not a big enough market.
Title: Re: Mahindra BSA
Post by: Greybeard on 19.11. 2020 10:15
I don't get the negativity. Why shouldn't a new BSA do what Triumph have done? I see many modern Triumphs on UK roads.

The proposal to ban petrol vehicles in the UK does not, (at the moment) include motorcycles.
Title: Re: Mahindra BSA
Post by: bsa-bill on 19.11. 2020 10:26
Quote
The proposal to ban petrol vehicles in the UK does not, (at the moment) include motorcycles.

I didn't know that GB, keep your eyes peeled for the resurgence of the Watsonian brand (maybe we should crowdfund the purchase of it) ;)
Title: Re: Mahindra BSA
Post by: metalflake11 on 19.11. 2020 17:52
Quote
The proposal to ban petrol vehicles in the UK does not, (at the moment) include motorcycles.

I didn't know that GB, keep your eyes peeled for the resurgence of the Watsonian brand (maybe we should crowdfund the purchase of it) ;)

Yes, GB is right... I wonder if sidecars will become popular again? Funny if it did, those without the capability of plugging their car in at night are a bit snookered.
Title: Re: Mahindra BSA
Post by: sean on 19.11. 2020 17:59
from what pics I have seen of prototypes look nothing like a BSA more like a japanese bike
had a young fellow at my shop the other day he saw my a10 and siad what is that I said a bsa super rocket he said never heard of BSA he was in his 20s I would guess .
I said well it older than you he said its older than my mother !  ;)
Title: Re: Mahindra BSA
Post by: Greybeard on 19.11. 2020 18:17
from what pics I have seen of prototypes look nothing like a BSA more like a japanese bike
had a young fellow at my shop the other day he saw my a10 and siad what is that I said a bsa super rocket he said never heard of BSA he was in his 20s I would guess .
I said well it older than you he said its older than my mother !  ;)
This is really not relevant. The BSA brand means something to people of a certain age and a few eccentric younger people. A modern motorbike that just happens to have a badge that says BSA will have to stand on its own two wheels in the same way that Triumph, Royal Enfield, Brough and Norton have either succeeded or failed.
Title: Re: Mahindra BSA
Post by: RichardL on 19.11. 2020 18:57
Affect or effect?

"Effect." Did you already know?
We sort of share a very strange language!

I have a fascinating book called The Adventure of English by Melvyn Bragg.


I'm going to look for it.

Richard L.
Title: Re: Mahindra BSA
Post by: RichardL on 19.11. 2020 19:10
As I previously mentioned, I don't see the reason Mahindra needs to make a petrol bike. I think they have the money to run a fairly effective ad campaign along the lines of, "Once the world's most popular motorcycle, BSA is back with a flair. Come in and test ride the Phoenix." The imaging is a continuous morphing from the earliest bikes through the Rocket 3 ascending upward to the rising Phoenix. (They can leave out the scooters.)

Richard L.


Title: Re: Mahindra BSA
Post by: bsa-bill on 19.11. 2020 19:19
Quote
Affect or effect?

those two trip me up often, my old English Miss Joice usually had her eyes pointing to the heavens when she spoke to me, too many damn contradictions in English for my young brain to grasp I guess.
A bloke on FB informed me my post contained a triple negative, I had not a clue what he was talking about, I just replied that I hadn't been counting
Title: Re: Mahindra BSA
Post by: BSA_54A10 on 20.11. 2020 11:56
I don't get the negativity. Why shouldn't a new BSA do what Triumph have done? I see many modern Triumphs on UK roads.

The proposal to ban petrol vehicles in the UK does not, (at the moment) include motorcycles.

The reports I have heard used the terms domestic vehicles which would include motorcycles but exclude trucks.
The only reason not to ban motorcycles would be if the police & ambos can;t find a suitable electric bike.

Because Triumph did it 20 years ago when people at least still remembered the name .
Because Triumphs are made in Tailand not in the UK where you either have to make a Rolls Royce class of bike ( priced accordingly ) or 10,000 a week to cover costs .
Enfield have been on the verge of going under to 20 of the last 30 years and they have the advantage of a large home market.

A modern BSA will have to be tier IV compliant so will need to be fuel injected so will idle at 1200 rpm and run like a sewing machine which is basically the same as every other motorcycle  and not what the few who do remember what the old BSA's were will be expecting.

BEcause the market for motor vehicles is declining particularly in the youth group because they "hang out" on their phones & not at the "Ace " on their motorcycle .

If you were going to revive a name from the past the one to pick would be Nimbus for no other reason than 3 billion people have read all the Harry Potter books and will at least recognise the the name Nimbus and associate it with a moving object .

Remember all the Whoo har about the "new Ariel " a few years back ?
and how many times have we seen the revival of Norton ?


Motorcycling is dieing weather we like it or not.

Much like cars, computer designs have lead to aerodynamically efficient, quiet cars   that really all look the same, all go the same .
Title: Re: Mahindra BSA
Post by: Rex on 20.11. 2020 16:19
As I previously mentioned, I don't see the reason Mahindra needs to make a petrol bike.
Richard L.

if they're intending that at least some of this supposed output is destined for the "Third World" then the petrol option is essential. A couple of jerry cans of petrol is a more reliable and a better method of powering your vehicle in those countries than either a hit-and-miss (or totally missing!) mains supply or a silly little portable wind-mill powered charger.
This is what makes a mockery of Johnson's prediction re Green power; the UK is one small country, and his statement (if it ever came to pass, and I seriously doubt that it would/will) would cause major upheaval in the UK economy and have next-to-no effect on the ever-increasing global use of IC engines.
Title: Re: Mahindra BSA
Post by: RDfella on 20.11. 2020 17:10
We are forgetting the UN's green agenda details, folks. The banning of coal, petrol etc only applies to western economies. According to their agenda (Paris Accord etc ) China, India and all 3rd world countries will be allowed to continue using fossil fuel (China intends to massively increase its usage) whilst the fines we pay for continuing to use these fuels will be payable to those countries. So there will always be a market for petrol / diesel vehicles. The UN has admitted their climate change agenda has nothing to do with the environment, but is about introducing socialism. Don't believe me? Look up what the IPCC's Ottomar Edenhofer said in Nov 2010.
Title: Re: Mahindra BSA
Post by: RichardL on 20.11. 2020 19:48
If you were going to revive a name from the past the one to pick would be Nimbus for no other reason than 3 billion people have read all the Harry Potter books and will at least recognise the the name Nimbus and associate it with a moving object .

I may be just be playin' now. OK, so the Mahindra electric bike should be called the Nimbus. Makes sense. Name recognition and also flies.

Richard L.

Title: Re: Mahindra BSA
Post by: RichardL on 20.11. 2020 19:50
As I previously mentioned, I don't see the reason Mahindra needs to make a petrol bike.
Richard L.

if they're intending that at least some of this supposed output is destined for the "Third World" then the petrol option is essential. A couple of jerry cans of petrol is a more reliable and a better method of powering your vehicle in those countries than either a hit-and-miss (or totally missing!) mains supply or a silly little portable wind-mill powered charger.
This is what makes a mockery of Johnson's prediction re Green power; the UK is one small country, and his statement (if it ever came to pass, and I seriously doubt that it would/will) would cause major upheaval in the UK economy and have next-to-no effect on the ever-increasing global use of IC engines.

If you get a chance to see "Long Way Up", you will see electric motorcycles getting charged-up in the some of the most remote regions of South America. To be sure, it was a big challenge.

Richard L.
Title: Re: Mahindra BSA
Post by: Rex on 20.11. 2020 21:12
But they were doing it to film and show as a programme.
Some subsistence farmer  (among the millions of others) in one of those extremely poor countries would just take the easier option of a couple of gallons of diesel.
Nimbus would be a poor choice of make too. The only 750 which I could nail the throttle for several miles it was so generally gutless. Truly a bike for the delivery postie.
Title: Re: Mahindra BSA
Post by: edboy on 20.11. 2020 22:36
i hope they dont make an e scooter.
that a fundamentally flawed and dangerous design due to the wheel size and weight distribution with a rider is being lorded as a 21st future saviour shows how thick these lefties are. anyone with an o level in physics will know why a 19" wheel will turn more safely due to gravity than a 3-4" one. unfortunately i failed my o level so cant explain why without resorting to google.
already one e scooter lady died in battersea under a lorry this year and they are not legal yet.
Title: Re: Mahindra BSA
Post by: Greybeard on 21.11. 2020 11:06
i hope they dont make an e scooter.
that a fundamentally flawed and dangerous design due to the wheel size and weight distribution with a rider is being lorded as a 21st future saviour shows how thick these lefties are. anyone with an o level in physics will know why a 19" wheel will turn more safely due to gravity than a 3-4" one. unfortunately i failed my o level so cant explain why without resorting to google.
already one e scooter lady died in battersea under a lorry this year and they are not legal yet.
Electric scooters, sound like a really bad idea to me. Apart from the issue of a powered vehicle being used on footways, (which is going to happen because, well who is going to prevent it?). Third party insurance will not be required, (how will a rider pay compensation to an injured third party?) Registration plates will not be required. Helmets will not be required.
I'm already seeing these things being raced through areas where children are around.

If dedicated traffic lanes could be set up for electric bicycles and scooters and riding elsewhere could be prevented then maybe these things would be OK.
Title: Re: Mahindra BSA
Post by: bikerbob on 21.11. 2020 13:18
I fully agree with what you say, my wife and I were were walking in a local country park some couple of weeks  and a youth on an electric scooter passed very close to us. I was amazed at the speed he was going, he came up behind us and we never heard him coming nor did he sound any warning if either of us had stepped to one side an accident would certainly have happened he was that close.
Title: Re: Mahindra BSA
Post by: Greybeard on 21.11. 2020 13:49
I fully agree with what you say, my wife and I were were walking in a local country park some couple of weeks  and a youth on an electric scooter passed very close to us. I was amazed at the speed he was going, he came up behind us and we never heard him coming nor did he sound any warning if either of us had stepped to one side an accident would certainly have happened he was that close.
Cyclists do this all the time. Having a bell, (other audible warning methods are available ) seems to be not the done thing. Fast moving bicycle's have killed people.
Cyclists are mostly younger people who must still have that totally self-centered attitude of the child. They just cannot empathise with other people. These are going to be the electric scooter riders.
Title: Re: Mahindra BSA
Post by: Butch (cb) on 21.11. 2020 19:20
Cyclists are mostly younger people who must still have that totally self-centered attitude of the child. They just cannot empathise with other people. These are going to be the electric scooter riders.

No GB. that's a generalisation too far for me.
Title: Re: Mahindra BSA
Post by: Greybeard on 21.11. 2020 19:29
Cyclists are mostly younger people who must still have that totally self-centered attitude of the child. They just cannot empathise with other people. These are going to be the electric scooter riders.

No GB. that's a generalisation too far for me.
I made four generalisations. Which one do you not like?  *smile*

By the way, I cycled 100 miles a week for many years before I retired.
Title: Re: Mahindra BSA
Post by: Angus on 22.11. 2020 10:56
just thought i would add this in case people were interested https://www.visordown.com/features/top-10s/legends-feature-top-ten-most-iconic-bsas-all-time (https://www.visordown.com/features/top-10s/legends-feature-top-ten-most-iconic-bsas-all-time) something to live up to  *smile*
ps I cycle regularly into town and local country side (not in lycra), and am very aware that I need to ensure pedestrians know I am there, as far as I am concerned they always have the right of way.
Title: Re: Mahindra BSA
Post by: BSA_54A10 on 22.11. 2020 14:15
just thought i would add this in case people were interested https://www.visordown.com/features/top-10s/legends-feature-top-ten-most-iconic-bsas-all-time (https://www.visordown.com/features/top-10s/legends-feature-top-ten-most-iconic-bsas-all-time) something to live up to  *smile*
ps I cycle regularly into town and local country side (not in lycra), and am very aware that I need to ensure pedestrians know I am there, as far as I am concerned they always have the right of way.
\
A bit of click bait form a moron who would not know a bantam from a bultaco.
Top 10 really ?
or was it the first 10 images he saw on Google
A bike that never went into production ( Bandit ) that was riddled with problems & unrideable in the form that it would have rolled of the production line,
Ask one of the few owners of them how mush work went into getting the bike to move under it's own power without  blowing up. Top 10 not in any ones books .
Probably run by Roy Bacon's grandson .
What a load of tosh .
Title: Re: Mahindra BSA
Post by: RDfella on 22.11. 2020 16:49
Thanks for the link, Angus. Interesting article that tickles a few memories.
Title: Re: Mahindra BSA
Post by: RichardL on 23.11. 2020 19:25
Regardless of the practicality or real significance, I think it would be pretty cool if Mahindra bought this building (and adjacent nearby property, if necessary) to set up shop in the Midlands.

Richard L.
Title: Re: Mahindra BSA
Post by: BSA_54A10 on 24.11. 2020 21:24
Regardless of the practicality or real significance, I think it would be pretty cool if Mahindra bought this building (and adjacent nearby property, if necessary) to set up shop in the Midlands.

Richard L.

But cool does not cut the mustard or pay the bills .
One of the contributing factors to the demise of BSA and the entire British motor industry for that matter, was working from inappropriate buildings which pushed the unit price of every bike way higher than it needed to be .
Allister Cave knew this which is why he was behind the push to shift all assembly from Small Heath to the new factory at Coventry and use the Small Heath solely as a parts manufacturing facility.
The buildings at Small Heath were all purpose built for making guns using natural light.
Rifles are small things so shoveling them all around the factory is no where near as expensive as shifting motorcycles around.
Finding appropriate land in the Midlands for expansion was ( and still is ) a major problem .
Jaguar bought Daimler from BSA purely & simply to acquire the land . They had no plans for the marque, they just needed the space.

There was an interesting video cross posted on the WM20 web page which outlined the movement of the motorcycles at the Plumsted works during assembly.
No wonder they made so few bikes, there would have been more workers shuffleing them within and from building to building than here was assembling bikes.
Up one floor  then down a ramp into another lift ,up to the roof to get clean access to another lift to take the bike to the basement to do a simple job then through a tunnel to the building across the road, up 3 floors, down two,  etc , etc then the finished bikes had to sit on the street .
Brad Jones makes it very clear that Slumberglades was totally inappropriate for use as a R & D headquarters due to restrictions on building new structures on the site or even modifing the existing structures due to it being a registered historical site , apparently Hesketh sufferred the same restrictions .

So no wonder all of the attempts to revive the British Motorcycle industry have failed dismally if you have to shoe horn your production facility into a building that can't accommodate it efficiently .

If Mahindra is going to make a go of it starting off with a compromised production line modified to fit within an inappropriate building already had one hand tied behind their backs.
SO if Mahindra are going to make a go of things they will need a green field site or at least one where a purpose building can be constructed .
Title: Re: Mahindra BSA
Post by: Rex on 24.11. 2020 21:30
I think Richard was just being fanciful.....at least, I thought he was... ;)
Title: Re: Mahindra BSA
Post by: metalflake11 on 24.11. 2020 21:36
Slumberglade was a nice place to be chauffeur driven to though, and the works canteen had first class chefs, and a fine wine list Trevor!

I despise what Sangster did to the company!
Title: Re: Mahindra BSA
Post by: BSA_54A10 on 24.11. 2020 22:06
People like to find a "monster to blame " but it was not what Sangster did .
It was what successive boards of money shufflers full of management theory and no engineering knowledge did .
Then in panic they brought out a hero to save them without realizing their hero ( Turner ) was a bufoon with a dangerous ego to boot .

It is a problem inherit to the consolidated capital method of company ownership & management .
The original board had a clear mission - To make rifles by mechanical means .
Then when there was no market for rifles,  - To use the existing skills & equipment to raise sufficient profits to pay the debts .
SO if they needed to raise more money for new equipment they would pay no ( or reduced ) dividend which they saw as an investment in future profits .
Every business they acquired in the early days , and to a lesser extent in latter days was geared towards making armaments or supplying the War Office .
Pre WWI BSA only paid 4 dividends .
As any business gets bigger the amount of funds required grows & BSA was no exception so eventually they became too big for The Midlands Bank to carry so Barclays Bank became the major financier and that meant Barclays got a seat on the board.
Because Barclays got a seat, Midlands got one as well , the money men started to replace the founders & visionaries at board level and for them, protecting the bank was more important than protecting BSA . This is common place in consolidated capital and is a clear conflict of interest .
Now the banks demanded dividends every year which is where all of the illinformed ideas about the board bleeding off all the profits for the "fat cats '' to squander came from .
Then Coopers got a seat on the board so now you have 3 money men at the helm and the course towards the rocky reef was set .

Money people are very conservative , this is why there was a stock market in the first place, because banks would not risk enough of their investors money in "risky" things like manufacturing or even farming so the risk was shifted towards the investors and away from the depositers .
Now money people work on assumptions which are usually wrong and based on history.
SO if we sold 100% last year we will sell 100% again this year and each & every year into the future .
To them all costs must be recouped so the idea of scrapping the production tooling for the C series singles in favour of the A 7 based 250 before it was paid off, was abhorrent to them as was to loss of income from supplying C series bikes for a year while they tooled up for the new model, even if the new model will cost 60% of the current model to make & sell for a higher price  while cutting the cost of the A series , to a money man, this is RISK and they are risk adverse.
Title: Re: Mahindra BSA
Post by: metalflake11 on 24.11. 2020 22:34
Yes Trevor, but apart from that it was all Sangsters fault! *smile* *smile*

You obviously know more about the latter stages of the company than I do. Suffice to say, they made a right Horlicks of it!