The BSA A7-A10 Forum

Technical => A7 & A10 Engine => Topic started by: rico95993 on 09.09. 2009 06:56

Title: 1961 super rocket vin id
Post by: rico95993 on 09.09. 2009 06:56
I have what I think is a 61 super rocket but where the vin should be on the steering neck there is a steel plate or gusset and it kinda looks stock. Is the frame vin somewhere else on a 61 super rocket
Title: Re: 1961 super rocket vin id
Post by: Richard on 09.09. 2009 09:15
I have just looked at my 61 S/R and the frame number (vin) is on the left hand side on the edge of the gussett plate where it meets the down tube at the head stock. You may find it is under a load of paint as they are not stamped very deep.
Hope you find it
Richard
Title: Re: 1961 super rocket vin id
Post by: bsa-bill on 09.09. 2009 11:36
Another thing to remember is frames without numbers are not bound to be dodgy in fact probably the reverse, replacement frames from BSA came without numbers stamped on them.
Speaking from personal experience here having been struck at a tangent by an AJ many moons ago.
Needed frame, tank, wheel rebuild and forks - cost 65 UK pounds, back then that was probably six weeks wages

All the best - Bill
Title: Re: 1961 super rocket vin id
Post by: LJ. on 09.09. 2009 22:19
But is it okay to have a number stamped just under the rear brake crossover? I have an A10 frame that I'm currently applying for UK registration and its looking like its not going to be accepted by the BSA owners club. Still waiting to hear more about this. The headstock shows no sign of ground off numbers, I rather think it was a brand new replacement frame to replace an accident write off. Who knows? *dunno*
Title: Re: 1961 super rocket vin id
Post by: rico95993 on 10.09. 2009 03:41
I am new to the forum and am going to have learn how to attach a pic. The steering neck looks different than all the others I have seen because the welded strap that only goes up to about where the vin number is, goes all the way to the top covering where it should be. I am tempted to cut it down to where my 59 frame is.
Title: Re: 1961 super rocket vin id
Post by: rico95993 on 10.09. 2009 03:43
And I also am looking for an A10 tank and I have an A50 A65 tank for at least a partial trade
Title: Re: 1961 super rocket vin id
Post by: trevinoz on 10.09. 2009 03:46
Rico,
       the full gusset was introduced in 1960 so is correct for your frame.
As pointed out by Richard, the number should be stamped on the left side of the gusset plate over the frame tube.
Trev.
Title: Re: 1961 super rocket vin id
Post by: rico95993 on 10.09. 2009 03:50
Thanks for the reply on the gusset. All the books I have didn't show a very good pic of the 61. I am beggining to think maybe it is a replacement frame because there isn't a number where it's supposed to be. I wish I had joined this forum a long time ago.
Title: Re: 1961 super rocket vin id
Post by: RichardL on 10.09. 2009 03:59
LJ,

Trev's comment should be very god news for you. Maybe Trev can reference his source of information, even though I think it might just be years and years with lots of A10s, so that you can present it to the BSAOC.  I was on the verge of suggesting forensic comparison of the stamps between those on the neck and those on the gusset. After all, they were stamped by hand and probabaly at a limited number of final stations on the assembly line.


Richard L.
 
Title: Re: 1961 super rocket vin id
Post by: trevinoz on 10.09. 2009 04:14
Richard L,
                 you are correct in surmising my source is many years and many machines, my own and others.
 Trev.
Title: Re: 1961 super rocket vin id
Post by: rico95993 on 10.09. 2009 05:20
Would it be possible that a US replacement frame could have escaped getting a vin#
Title: Re: 1961 super rocket vin id
Post by: trevinoz on 10.09. 2009 07:41
Over 40 odd years, anything is possible!
Trev.
Title: Re: 1961 super rocket vin id
Post by: Richard on 12.09. 2009 22:04
Have you stripped the paint off and got that area down to bare metal?
Richard
Title: Re: 1961 super rocket vin id
Post by: dynodave on 15.09. 2009 00:22
I posess a 61+ A-10 replacement frame that was without any stamped #.
I concur that all the A-10 frames I have seen have the VIN running in line with the LH down tubes but stamped on the gusset plate. the # start at the top and run down the frame and the # are read from in front of the bike.
;)

cheers
Title: Re: 1961 super rocket vin id
Post by: rico95993 on 15.09. 2009 01:14
I have a dilema. I just scraped off all the paint on the gusset and no numbers. Looked everywhere for one and discovered something I should have seen before. The frame has no tubes for passenger pegs and the forks look more like earlier forks. Only thing I can think of is that it is a 1957 Rocket Scrambler with a1961 Super Rocket engine. If anyone wants pics of the bike, I can email them.  The Bacon guide shows the Rocket/Spitfre Scrambler as an even more valuable bike. It has 19 inch wheels with full width alloy hubs and screw in axle front forks.
Title: Re: 1961 super rocket vin id
Post by: trevinoz on 15.09. 2009 07:41
Rico,
          Post some pictures of your frame and let the resident experts have a go at identifying it.
Trev.
Title: Re: 1961 super rocket vin id
Post by: alanp on 15.09. 2009 13:58
This an interesting thread for me since I am trying to make a reasonably good replica of a '62 Rocket Gold Star from an A10 with a '55 frame, which of course has the 50's front engine lugs and half height gusset plate over the steering head. If I modify these to 60's spec I will have to restamp the same frame number on the left side of the new shape gusset as described by 'dynodave'. The V5C will still show the  '55 frame number so I'm not trying to con anyone, just want to make a good replica and make it difficult for my critical bunch of classic bike mates, who are dying to crawl all over it, to spot the differences. This conversion is much more difficult/expensive to do a good job than people might have you believe. Snippets like the position of the frame number are helpful.
Thanks.
Title: Re: 1961 super rocket vin id
Post by: trevinoz on 15.09. 2009 22:52
Alan,
          To make your frame like a 60's type, you will have to grind out every weld and reweld it with an electric welder.
The early frames were gas welded.
You will also have to fabricate and fit new centre stand mounts.
Sounds like too much work to me.
Trev.
Title: Re: 1961 super rocket vin id
Post by: rico95993 on 16.09. 2009 06:16
I will post some pics of the frame, forks and rear swing arm, but I tried and the files were too big. I'm gonna have to take some lower resolution pics or learn how to shrink the files
Title: Re: 1961 super rocket vin id
Post by: rico95993 on 16.09. 2009 07:10
I think I got it. I have many more if anyone wants to see more
Title: Re: 1961 super rocket vin id
Post by: muskrat on 16.09. 2009 10:35
Rico, those are '56-'57 Ariel hubs so you might be right about '57 scrambler with later motor and mods.
Cheers
Title: Re: 1961 super rocket vin id
Post by: rico95993 on 16.09. 2009 15:50
More pics of wheels
Title: Re: 1961 super rocket vin id
Post by: trevinoz on 16.09. 2009 23:08
My guess is a 60s spitfire scrambler frame with '56 - '57 wheels and forks.
The '57 spitfires had 1/2 width brake drums.
What year or model is your engine?
Trev.
Title: Re: 1961 super rocket vin id
Post by: rico95993 on 17.09. 2009 03:41
The engine is # DA10 R 3335 which should be 61 Super Rocket. It gets so confusing researching the Scrambler because there is so much conflicting info in both literature and on various websites. I've done a few unit bikes and a 441 VS and those were simple compared to this. One website says that 57 was the only year without the passenger pillion tubes yet I see many other years without them and since my steering neck has the full gusset that would say 60 or 61. The area where the tool box goes only has the one bolt boss also. Did any years of the Scrambler have full width alloy hubs? I just sold a 57 Road Rocket engine when I thought this bike was a 61 Super Rocket. I think here in the states this bike might be a nightmare to restore to some sembelence of stock considering no vin#
Title: Re: 1961 super rocket vin id
Post by: trevinoz on 17.09. 2009 22:27
The scramblers had full width iron hubs post about 1958.
Apparently the Spitfire engine in 1960 - 61 was a DA10SR prefix.
I still feel you have a hybrid of Spitfire frame with Rocket engine and 1956-7 wheels, forks and swinging arm.
After 40+ years, anything is possible. It could be the result of a major accident or just put together out of someone's shed.
It doesn't matter, it's all BSA, so enjoy.
Trev.
Title: Re: 1961 super rocket vin id
Post by: rico95993 on 18.09. 2009 04:34
I think I share your opinion of what year most the parts are for. It just gets confusing with some of the books and websites that have so many different opinions.
Title: Re: 1961 super rocket vin id
Post by: rocket man on 18.09. 2009 23:02
i heard bsa used a lot of different  parts when items ran out
when they were putting them together
Title: Re: 1961 super rocket vin id
Post by: rico95993 on 19.09. 2009 04:22
I sent a bunch of pics to a guy with a lot of scramblers and he agreed with muskrat that I have Ariel hubs. So that with 61 Super Rocket engine, and post 60 replacement frame, and 56/57 maybe BSA forks means I have a mutt. I wish it were closer to one orginal bike including a tank and I might have restored it.  I've posted this one and a numbers matching frame and engine 59 Super Rocket turned semi chopper on Craigs list.
Title: Re: 1961 super rocket vin id
Post by: Goldy on 19.09. 2009 09:00
Rocket man is quite correct. I was talking to someone recently who's father worked in the BSA factory and he said if they ran out of parts they used whatever they could find.
Title: Re: 1961 super rocket vin id
Post by: rocket man on 19.09. 2009 10:24
and at the end of the day what does it matter its still a bsa
and if it wernt for people like us there wouldn't be eany  on the
road what does it matter if its not original a lot of our bikes havint
got original parts on them a lot of them are new parts which id say
are better than original  *smile*
Title: Re: 1961 super rocket vin id
Post by: olev on 19.09. 2009 11:53
Rico, you lucky dog,
Look at this as an opportunity. You have lots of great bits.
Treat it as a blank canvas and build 'Rico's beeza'
Have a look at Beeza Bills purple piece of art.
http://www.geocities.com/beezabill/
or goffy's BSA with teeth.
personally I like Tombeau's yellow beastie with the VW pipes. They are all BSA's.
The place is awash with replica RGS that all look the same, run like hairy goats and keep the physios rich.
There is also a herd of Golden Flash, Super Rockets etc that you can't tell apart.
Just build something you are proud of that runs good, and ride it.
Start off by sticking the A50 tank on it.
cheers
Title: Re: 1961 super rocket vin id
Post by: rico95993 on 19.09. 2009 13:07
I know it would be cool to build something different it's just that without so many parts I have a tendency to way overspend money I don't have. Done it before on unit twins. You know those guys that advertise something,have  invested $10,000 and will sell for $2500. I are one. LOL I think a few people from British Only sent their kids to college off of me. We'll see. I might do something with my 2 bikes or sell them and get another one.
Title: Re: 1961 super rocket vin id
Post by: minibsa on 22.09. 2009 11:20
Very interesting topic.  Just to throw a spanner in the works I notice from the photo that there are no chain guard mounts on the swing arm, so does this add crecibility to the scrambler theory?
Just a thought to keep you guessing.
Bob .
Title: Re: 1961 super rocket vin id
Post by: trevinoz on 23.09. 2009 04:36
Scramblers had chain guards.
Probably the mounts have been chopped off.
Trev.
Title: Re: 1961 super rocket vin id
Post by: minibsa on 23.09. 2009 08:31
Hi Trev,I agree maybe the mounts have been cut off BUT I have an identical swing arm (56/57) without mounts and no sign of ever having any cut off so I was looking to see if anybody had the answer. Does this bike show signs of the chain guard mounts having been removed?
Cheers,    Bob, (also in oz)
Title: Re: 1961 super rocket vin id
Post by: rico95993 on 23.09. 2009 16:18
No it doesn't look like it ever had them. The forks are 56/57 along with the wheels, so maybe the swing arm is too
Title: Re: 1961 super rocket vin id
Post by: minibsa on 24.09. 2009 11:29
Hi Rico, it must be a 56/57 swing arm to fit those alloy hubs, they have a larger axle lug on the brake side than the 58 on models (of course you could machine a later swing arm lug out to fit the axle), but for my guess you seem to have a 57 scrambler (front and rear) with possibly a frame replacement at some time. Anyway that's the way I would build it!
Cheers,    Bob .
Title: Re: 1961 super rocket vin id
Post by: trevinoz on 24.09. 2009 22:52
Bob,
          The 1957 scrambler didn't use Ariel hubs.
  Trev.
Title: Re: 1961 super rocket vin id
Post by: rico95993 on 25.09. 2009 02:33
But this is the new and improved model! LOL   Actually it's a mystery bike. A fellow who is going to purchase them says the engine number, which shows as being a 61 Super Rocket, is not a number the official guys in the UK recognize. The bikes I have were puchased from a guy who bought about 10 bikes in single purchase and none of them were Ariels and there were no Ariel parts that were included in a bunch of spares.
Title: Re: 1961 super rocket vin id
Post by: Brian on 25.09. 2009 02:45
I wonder if there might be a small amount of confusion here as regards "Ariel" hubs. These hubs that were fitted to the 56 and 57 models are referred to Ariel hubs which they are but they are the correct fitment for BSA's of these two years.

56 and 57 models BSA's came from the factory with these hubs Rico, they are not from a Ariel motorbike.

Hope that makes sense, probably not !
Title: Re: 1961 super rocket vin id
Post by: rocket man on 25.09. 2009 22:04
GO ON RICO BUILD IT YOU KNOW YOU WANT TO
Title: Re: 1961 super rocket vin id
Post by: rico95993 on 28.09. 2009 05:25
The Ariel hubs do make sense. If the sale does not go thru, I am going to put together at least one of them. Maybe both and have a retro chopper too! Well, maybe not with the struts. I remember my old hardtail Paughco framed slab side shovel. My back couldn't take that anymore. Hell! It couldn't take it way back then. Different is cool, but I really like the classic look of the Super Rocket or an RGS. I have a friend with a bunch of Triumphs including some TTs but I like the way the BSA's sound better. Just something about the BSA's stand out for me. And if I need a fix on a fast and modern bike I'm the sales mgr for a Honda Yamaha dealership.