The BSA A7-A10 Forum

Technical => A7 & A10 Engine => Topic started by: lawnmowerman on 30.12. 2009 17:30

Title: Super rocket exhaust
Post by: lawnmowerman on 30.12. 2009 17:30
Hi All

Hope everybody on the Forum had a good Christmas.

I have just bought a 1959 A10 Super Rocket which has been totally rebuilt. It has not been registered but came with a BSAOC dating certificate so I hired a van and took it for an MOT and it passed with no problems. I then went through the dreaded application with DVLA for an age related plate and they decided they wanted to view it so I hired a van again and took it to the local office so that DVLA could confirm that the bike actually existed. (Despite the fact that it had been MOTd the week before).
Christmas came and went and still no registration number when, joy of joys, I had a call from DVLA saying that they had found the original registration and it was still available so they were allocating that number and would send it shortly.
 
Now to the point of this question. As a celebration I decided to treat the bike to a pair of Goldie silencers. I researched what was available and decided on Britura made in England silencers. When they arrived, I thought ah - five minutes with a spanner and I can crank up and hear that superb exhaust note. No such luck - the silencers would not push on the pipes far enough without hitting the start of the internal baffle tube. The silencer bracket was about 1.5 inches rearwards of the footrest bracket. My immediate thought was to cut a piece off the end of the exhaust pipe but then the old standard style silencers would not have fitted if I wanted to put them back. The second solution would have been making a pair of brackets to extend the rear footrest mounting but that would have looked messy.
I eventually decided to buy a second set of pipes made by Britura in the mistaken assumption that if everything was made by the same manufacturer, there would be a good chance of it all fitting together OK.
The pipes were not even close - they were too big for the exhaust ports (alloy head) and I noticed that there were some thin steel shims bonded around the inside of the exhaust ports so I removed them and the pipes slid into the ports - not all the way but far enough. (Should I have removed these?)
When the pipes were in the exhaust ports the pipes were still too long and fitted worse than the originals.
I am wating for the distributer to return from their Christmas holidays on 4th Jan but I thought I would see if anybody had similar problems with Britura and could recommend a manufacturer and distributer of a goldie exhaust system for a Super Rocket that fits and has reasonable sound and chrome.

Thanks

Jim







Title: Re: Super rocket exhaust
Post by: MG on 30.12. 2009 18:24
Hello Jim!

I've been searching for new exhaust pipes for my A10 for some time, and like you I also got a lot of crap (pipes that don't fit into the head, brackets off by an inch, not clear of primary case, and so on). A few weeks ago I received a set of exhaust pipes from Armours Ltd. in Bournemouth (http://web.mac.com/Armours/Armours/Home.html).
I must say the pipes are the best repros I have seen so far. The chrome is beautiful and they fitted almost perfectly. Thy are a snug fit in the head, I just had to bend the bracket on the left hand side for 2 or 3mm (unlike others, the chrome did NOT break and flake off!), and I think the price of 90 GBP for the pair is ok, too. The only downside is, that like all repros I have seen so far, they don't have the nice continuous bend with the two different radii of the original (and the Toga-made) pipes. There is a short straight segment between the smaller bend near the head and the larger one underneath. But I can live with that.
Unfortunately I don't know their silencers, but if the quality is the same, they should be ok. They also were very helpful and competent when I called them, and they told me I could send the pipes back for a refund, in case I weren't satisfied with them.

Cheers, Markus
Title: Re: Super rocket exhaust
Post by: lawnmowerman on 30.12. 2009 18:58
Hi Markus

Thanks for the info. I have checked out Armours website and they do stainless too. Their range costs a little more than the Britura range but if they fit properly it is a small price to pay.
I will give them a call tomorrow as my only concern is that I am trying to fit goldie silencers istead of the standard shape and they are a bit longer than the standard silencers towards the front end - normally on the RGS there would be a single goldie fitted to a siamese system which I believe runs down the timing side. The timing side pipe is straight at the silencer end so it is possible to cut a bit off if necessary, however on the drive side there is a kink in the last bit of my existing pipe and the Britura pipe I have just bought. If I cut a section off that side then the exhaust clamp will fit over a curved section of pipe and it is difficult to tell how it will clamp up or leak by which time it is too late as you have cut the pipe.

It sounds as though you are having the same problems as me in finding pipes which fit - I wonder how these companies manage to stay in business selling stuff which does not even fit, let alone the crap plating.

Thanks again

Jim
Title: Re: Super rocket exhaust
Post by: MG on 30.12. 2009 19:09
Jim - You are right, the crap they are selling us seems to be a never ending source of frustration. Its not only exhaust systems, the story continues with sprockets, lights, badges, footrest rubbers, virtually every part. The best story I had were a set of cam followers, where one was made from stainless! Fortunately I had the set nitrogen hardened and saw that one of them didn't turn greyish, but had a shiny blue colour. With the help of a magnet I found out rather quickly what was the point. I don't want to imagine what would have happened if I had fitted them to the freshly rebuilt engine.  *eek*

If nothing else helps, you could drill the baffle tube in the silencer out  ;)
Title: Re: Super rocket exhaust
Post by: lawnmowerman on 31.12. 2009 12:53
Hi Markus
I think that Armours are now closed until the end of the "silly season" so I will try them on Monday. I have looked at previous posts on the forum and it seems that apart from yourself, nobody has actually had exhaust parts from any manufacturer that they are totally pleased with. Some have had to resort to heating up the pipes to bend them to the correct shape and blueing the chrome in the process. Is it too much to expect that we should part with our hard earned cash and get parts which are useless or need to be adapted to fit, when they are sold as direct replacements. Please wake up all you manufacturers and realise that we would probably pay a premium for quality parts that fit straight from the box.
It would be a good idea to create a new section on the forum topics to give feedback from users about parts purchased, quality, service and ease of fitting etc. similar to the feedback arrangement on ebay. Only then would manufacturers be shamed into getting their act together. Every time a member buys a part then feedback could be posted on the forum - it would certainly save a lot of wasted time and money.
I have decided to fab some triangular metal brackets and adapt the Britura goldie silencers to my existing pipes so that I do not have to cut the pipes and clamp the exhaust to the curved section of pipe under the footrest (why is that double curve there at all - it does not seem necessary). It means that the silencers will project a bit further to the rear but it will allow me to slightly upsweep the silencers which looks nice. I can also refit the old silencers if I want to without any problems. The Britura pipes can go back if they will take them.
Off to the garage now to find some ally sheet to make a pair of templates and do a test fit. The final articles will be made from one eighth steel and sprayed black so they do not stand out too much - they will be partly hidden by the pillion footrests anyway.
Regards
Jim
Title: Re: Super rocket exhaust
Post by: bsa-bill on 31.12. 2009 13:11
Just read an article that reckons 15% of British firms are returning to UK for manufacturing their products due to quality issues and transport costs with goods made elsewhere ( China springs to mind )
No idea how accurate this is as our media is sadly lacking on the quality front these days also, I have noticed a lot of call centres returning home these days though ( is that a good thing ?).
Getting back on subject sort of, I bought a new gearbox sprocket from someone on Ebay, it wasn't until I fitted it revealed it's faults, kept throwing the chain off, one tooth was machined a long way out of position, not easily seen with the naked eye.
Don't know if I can retrieve who I bought it off ( it was a while ago ), looks like Iit's scrap now though, I couldn't sell it on knowing it is wrong.

All the best - Bill
Title: Re: Super rocket exhaust
Post by: MG on 31.12. 2009 14:27
I think we should pick up Jim's idea and create a database for parts, the manufacturer/supplier and the forum member's experience concerning the quality of the parts. There are a few suppliers that offer parts of decent quality, and I think they should be mentioned as well. We as the customers have the power to initiate a change, but therefore collecting information is vital.

Usually any kind of advertisement is not allowed in forums, but in fact this is just some kind of exchange of experiences.
Maybe the administrators can give a statement on this?
IMHO its definitely worth thinking about.
Title: Re: Super rocket exhaust
Post by: groily on 31.12. 2009 14:49
Have to say I also like Jim's idea for a Recommendations spot. A popular feature on one or two other forums/club sites/user groups, just have to be careful with negative remarks.

I was one guy who couldn't get a set of Armours' pipes to fit correctly on my A, although I've still got a twenty-plus yr old siamese set of theirs on another bike of another marque, which fitted perfectly, and a similar newer set on another, ditto. I don't know what the double kink in the left hand pipe is all about either, but it's presumably there for a good clearance-related reason which didn't seem to apply to mine! I've junked the twin-pipe set-up now and gone back to a siamese (whose?) using one pattern goldie (which liberated the other one for another bike and made the primary side a lot easier to get at again). Part of the parts hassle may be that a bike isn't really, in all respects, what it says on the tin. Hardly surprising after half a century odd, with probably a dubious 'restoration' thrown in somewhere down the line (before (of course!) it reached its current owner).


Title: Re: Super rocket exhaust
Post by: bsa-bill on 31.12. 2009 17:53
I got into a bit of trouble a few months back with a recommendation, totally my fault though, but shows a need to be care


All the best - Bill
Title: Re: Super rocket exhaust
Post by: a101960 on 31.12. 2009 20:51
The problem associated with recommendation is that not all experiences are the same. I had poor service and pipes that would not fit due to incorrect radius on the bends. It makes me mad as hell every time this company gets an editorial plug in the classic magazine road tests. I know from reading about other peoples experiences I am not alone in my dissatisfaction with the quality of the product. Equally there are those that share this companies bosses belief that he and his exhaust pipe company are God's gift to classic motorcycling. And therein lies the problem. One person can say supplier "X" is great. Then another person might have had a different experience but due to liable laws is not allowed to say so.
Title: Re: Super rocket exhaust
Post by: MG on 01.01. 2010 00:11
I guess it shouldn't be a matter of recommending a specific firm or maligning another. It shouldn't be a problem to tell other people where you bought an item and how you in your personal opinion judge the quality and how easy or not fitting it was on your specific bike. Then everyone reading these field reports can make himself a picture, especially if the majority of them shows a certain direction.
What about freedom of expression, when you can't tell other people about your experience and your opinion on a specific product?
But maybe I'm wrong here and some people with more legal knowledge could judge this as defamation already?

I don't know, but actually imho individual and personal opinion always has to take priority over economic interests.
Title: Re: Super rocket exhaust
Post by: rocket man on 01.01. 2010 00:48
i also think if a bike has been modified and they haven't told you then when you get
parts for a specific bike they wont fit because your bike has been altered in some way say its a gold flash and someone
has made it into a super rocket or a b31 into a gold star the mounting points may be different



dave
Title: Re: Super rocket exhaust
Post by: LJ. on 01.01. 2010 10:38
What we need to bear in mind here Gents is that when making a public complaint on the forum about a company, the owner of the forum may be held responsible, and if he has to shut the forum down we could loose a great association with one another here, I don't think I could be happy anywhere else. By all means praise up the good companies but the bad ones... well I don't think there is a lot we can do?
Title: Re: Super rocket exhaust
Post by: lawnmowerman on 01.01. 2010 11:35
Hi everybody. Hope you had a good new year and not too many sore heads!

Thanks for all the advice and comments.

I still feel that it would be a useful addition to the forum if we could have a ?manufacturers showcase? section where we can share experiences regarding quality, ease of fitment etc. I realise that there could be issues with libel if defamatory remarks are made. This may depend on what country this forum is registered in as different laws will apply in different countries. This type of feedback is common on sites such as Amazon, ebay and product tests and reviews are common in car and bike mags where various products are lined up against each other and scored in various areas. In fact, ebay have recently introduced a new feedback system where I understand that Power Sellers are penalised in their advertising rates if their average feedback scores are too low. Any comments we give should relate to our personal experience and the particular part we are fitting with no generalisations. Comments should be specific and positive, ie suggestions on how the part could be improved.

Sometimes with lower priced faulty products it is easier to bin them and put it down to experience as life is too short, but it would be beneficial to fellow enthusiasts if we could share that experience so that others do not waste their hard earned money.

I know that if I ran a company I would be proud of that company and be committed to continual improvement and customer satisfaction as that is how a company grows ? through reputation and by recommendation. If I find a company which does not have that commitment I will not use them again.

In the UK all goods sold must be ?of merchantable quality? and ?fit for purpose?. The first criterion is sometimes subjective and could pertain to the styling, cosmetics, finish etc. which are difficult to quantify but could also apply to BS standards for safety. The second one is quite specific ? the goods should be fit for purpose. If an exhaust system is sold to fit a certain bike then it should fit straight from the box ? no bending, grinding or cutting. I would think that if that item was also paid for by credit card then more protection is given under the consumer credit act.

Is there anybody on the forum who has expert knowledge in libel and consumer law?

I know that we all run old bikes and that modifications may have been carried out by previous owners that we may be unaware of which may affect the fit of new parts. In this particular instance I am fairly sure that my bike is original as I have checked the frame and engine number through the BSAOC. I have also applied for a new age related plate but DVLA has found the original registration number from the frame and engine number and it all ties in to a 1959 bike.

It may be that as all manufacturers produce pipes in batches, there are variations. It is probably stored as a set of dimensions and bending radii which are used on a pipe bending machine and it may depend on who set up the machine that day and their skill in using it. Small variations in bend angles and springback of pipe after bending, differing thickness of pipe wall and type of material used will all probably have an effect on the finished article. I would doubt that a sample from each batch is actually tested on a bike to check the fit. This is where we, the end user come in. Any manufacturer worth their salt should value our feedback and not treat it as an irritation.

I will try and sum up the situation as I see it. An A10 RGS exhaust is siamese and runs down the timing side of the bike where there is plenty of room and has a single goldie silencer.
A10 SR models have twin pipes with the Burgess style silencers. The driveside pipe has an, it would appear, unnecessary double kink under the footrest.
Using standard silencers the double kink is not an issue but if twin goldies are fitted the it is, as the driveside pipe needs to be shortened as the kinks prevent the goldie being slid on the pipe enough to line up the rear mounting as the pipe ends up fouling the baffle. If the pipe is shortened then the clamp ends up on one of the kinks and will probably not seal correctly. The timing side pipe is ok as it is straight and slides in the goldie enough to line up with the rear mounting.

Purists may say that the SR should have the standard silencers and then there would not be a problem and they may have a point. I think that the goldie looks nicer but the manufacturers have not thought it through when they manufactured a left hand silencer for a twin pipe system. It seems that they have used the right hand goldie for a Siamese system and then made a left hand version assuming that it would all fit ok. What is needed is to weld the mounting bracket about 1.5 inches further forward to allow twin goldies on stock pipes. I will try to contact Britura and suggest that to them and update this post with any news.

In the meantime I will go ahead and make a couple of triangular brackets so that I can fit the goldies further towards the rear using my old stock pipes.

Ride safely

Jim

Title: Re: Super rocket exhaust
Post by: lawnmowerman on 01.01. 2010 12:29
Hi LJ

What we need to bear in mind here Gents is that when making a public complaint on the forum about a company, the owner of the forum may be held responsible, and if he has to shut the forum down we could loose a great association with one another here, I don't think I could be happy anywhere else. By all means praise up the good companies but the bad ones... well I don't think there is a lot we can do?

Good point - we would not want to lose the forum. Perhaps we could have a new area on the forum called "Recommended Manufacturers" based on our own personal POSTIVE experiences. If anyone wants to know about manuafacturers not listed then a question could be posted and replies could come via private email.

I sent you a mail via your website but it may have ended up in your SPAM folder. I noticed that you have Goldies fitted on your red A10 and I was wondering whether you had any problems fitting them and where you bought them. Also whether you have the dreaded "double kink" in the driveside pipe down by the footrest mounting.

Regards

Jim

Title: Re: Super rocket exhaust
Post by: G/F DAVE on 01.01. 2010 12:55
I can recommend these guys for exhausts & silencers https://www.feked.com/shop/index.php. I bought a pair pipes & silencers for my 1952 plunger A10 this was three years ago the fit was good with only slight bend on one bracket and a tight fit into exhaust port but better than a loose fit & no nasty creases where they bend the pipe ! also very good chrome that is still good today and I,m not just a fine day rider also bike doesnt get cleaned that often but when I do clean it it shines. Also have one of their silencers on one of my M20,s. Both silencers are made from heavy guage steel. I have no affiliation with this company but only as a satisfied customer.This is my experiance yours may be different though. Dave....
Title: Re: Super rocket exhaust
Post by: lawnmowerman on 01.01. 2010 13:28
Thanks Dave
I must admit I had never heard of Feked before. I have just looked at their website and they carry the complete range for BSAs and their feedback from customers looks good. I will give them a call on Monday to see who actually manufactures their systems.

Regards

Jim
Title: Re: Super rocket exhaust
Post by: a10gf on 01.01. 2010 13:48
Welcome to continue the parts supplier discussion here (http://www.a7a10.net/forum/index.php/topic,2169.msg).
Title: Re: Super rocket exhaust
Post by: LJ. on 01.01. 2010 17:10
Hello Jim...

Yes indeed I did get your email yesterday, been too bunged up with a cold to make any sort of intelligible reply, although I did wrap up well to go out and take some more photos. Thanks for your kind comments on my website by the way.

I was rather fortunate with my down pipes in that they were already on the bike when I came to take on ownership of bike. The drive/nearside pipe does not have any really noticeable kink side to side as such but does have a slight kink in a top to bottom sort of manner. The pipe just clears the bottom underside of the primary cover by just a quarter of an inch. I purchased my Goldie pipes from Armours and have been very happy with them although I feel now after three or four years the chrome could have been a little better, rust is fighting to get through now. I must admit though I could have looked after them a bit better than I have done, using fine steel wool to remove baked on oil is not the way to go!

There has not been any mention that there is two lengths of Goldie pipes, mine I believe to be the longer types measuring 27 & 1/4 inches long. I also had to make up some triangular brackets which were easy enough to do. In all I've not had any sort of problem you yourself is experiencing, hope you manage to sort it out soon.

Title: Re: Super rocket exhaust
Post by: lawnmowerman on 01.01. 2010 18:15
Hi LJ

Sorry to hear about your cold - hope you feel better soon. Thanks for braving the cold for the pic.

You have done exactly what I propose to do - some triangular brackets to fit the goldie bracket to the footrest mounting, probably with an extra bolt drilled through the goldie bracket to stop the bracket swivelling downwards with the weight of the silencer. I would imagine that, like me, you could not slide the driveside goldie on the pipe far enough to reach the footrest mounting.

I will fit the Brituro goldies to my existing pipes as the goldies appear to be quite good quality - strong brackets and thick material with a short straight through baffle. The chrome looks pretty good, even around the welds although only time will tell regarding the durability of the plating.

Regards

Jim

Title: Re: Super rocket exhaust
Post by: MG on 01.01. 2010 19:22
LJ
First of all: Sorry to hear you are ill - not a good way to start a new year  ;). Get well soon!
Secondly I have a short question: What's that fitting behind the swing arm pivot pin for (the one that is mounted on the bracket where you would usually expect a rear-set footrest to be mounted)?
I'm aware that this bracket is welded to all of the later A10 frames, but I actually never could imagine what this was good for. Maybe you have a clue?

Cheers, Markus

Title: Re: Super rocket exhaust
Post by: trevinoz on 01.01. 2010 19:33
That would be the sidecar attachment lug.
Trev.
Title: Re: Super rocket exhaust
Post by: trevinoz on 01.01. 2010 19:59
Just a little bit about exhaust systems not related to fit.
There seems to be a bit of a myth about the system fitted to the RGS.
True it had a siamese system but the standard muffler was a long cigar shaped Burgess. The Goldie type was a track muffler and was an option.
Mine was delivered with the cigar type. The road test published in 1962 also showed a cigar muffler fitted.
The American equivalent had twin pipes and again Burgess mufflers.
The siamese system was not exclusive to the RGS.
My friend bought a new Big Valve Super Rocket in 1962.
It was an American market type with bobbed rear guard, lots of chrome, gaitered front forks and twin instruments.
It also had a siamese system with the Burgess muffler.
I ran a Goldie muffler on my RGS for years but now that it requires restoration [again] I am going to fit the original type muffler. I also have a new siamese system which was made here in Australia. Fits like a glove.
I have fitted the same system to my Big Valve.
Trev.
Title: Re: Super rocket exhaust
Post by: LJ. on 01.01. 2010 20:10
Yes as Trev says.... Its part of the sidecar lug... Its one half of a ball joint effort which really could do with removing now as I've decided to fit a sidecar to the A7 Star Twin. I'll be posting up some photos of that in a few weeks. Cheers.

Thanks for the cold commiserations...sniff sniff. A good ride out will clear it tomorrow!
Title: Re: Super rocket exhaust
Post by: MG on 01.01. 2010 20:30
 *idea*
Ah, thanks Gents! That makes sense. I couldn't see it, because here on the continent sidecars are naturally fitted to the right hand side of the bike.
Title: Re: Super rocket exhaust
Post by: lawnmowerman on 02.01. 2010 08:58
As Micheal Caine said in the Italian Job "Remember, here they drive on the wrong side of the road."  *smile*
Title: Re: Super rocket exhaust
Post by: MG on 02.01. 2010 10:44
I've visited GB by car last September (Beaulieu Autojumble and Goodwood Revival), and having covered some 1000 miles in your beautiful country, I got the impression that it was your fellow countrymen that were continuously using the wrong side of the road.  ;)

But its funny to have passengers on board when you take the first roundabout rather rapidly in clockwise direction with all of them screaming "wrong way, wrong way!. *eek*  They all are so used to passing it in CCW-direction, this works each and every time!
Title: Re: Super rocket exhaust
Post by: bsa-bill on 02.01. 2010 12:15
Next time your in our country MG could you visit Berwick upon Tweed and instruct the drivers there how to use roundabouts, 50% of them don't know when they have right of way and just stop, the other 50% know where they are going but refuse to let anybody else know via their indicators.

All the best - Bill  ( who has decided in 2010 to take an Open University degree in grumpiness - got a few credits already) ???
Title: Re: Super rocket exhaust
Post by: MG on 02.01. 2010 12:44
Bill - Seems to be the same problem almost everywhere. Once I had to stop in the middle of a roundabout here, because an indeed VERY old man in a car was using the roundabout "the UK-way", i.e. the wrong way 'round.  *eek*

Well, guess you have found a topic for your PhD-thesis in grumpiness already. *smiley4*

Cheers, Markus
Title: Re: Super rocket exhaust
Post by: Chrisf1 on 02.01. 2010 17:01
Hello Jim and everyone else I have been off site for about 6 months as I sold my pride and joy for a variety of reasons, health, finances and the main reason my absolute disgust at the quality of parts supplied today. Jim emailed me and complimented me on the build of my bike and stirred up the lust that is obviously still there or I would not be posting again. I would like to say the exhaust problems I experienced were an example although slightly different from Jim I was fitting swept backs and goldies I first ordered them from Armours and the left pipe was at such an angle if I could have fitted the goldie it would have broken spokes in the wheel after much argy bargy on the phone I trailered the bike to them they had to agree they were wrong after marking and cutting them they said I would have a new set within a couple of weeks when I got them they were unusable as well so I returned them for money back I kept the goldies they were excellent (fixed mounting bracket not the adjustable type) meanwhile I ordered a set from bantam john whose reputation I was well aware of, I collected and paid for them from him at Kempton and prepared myself for another nightmare  when I got home I unwrapped them and had them fitted in about 30 minutes perfect as can be seen in pic attached.  I will also add any pipes I have bought I have had to cut to length I think this is probably the norm because of the amount of different silencers available better to long than short. All the best everyone Chris
Title: Re: Super rocket exhaust
Post by: LJ. on 02.01. 2010 19:48
Hey good to hear from you Chris! Some good A10s on ebay currently!  ;) So who had your superb A10? I bet you are missing it badly.
Title: Re: Super rocket exhaust
Post by: Chrisf1 on 02.01. 2010 21:02
Very badly but you only seem to remember the good times the bad were awful Chris
Title: Re: Super rocket exhaust
Post by: Rocket Racer on 12.02. 2010 03:27
I recently bought a siamese setup for my A10 from Draganfly, while it fitted well and looked good, within minutes of start up the short LH pipe chrome was blistering and blowing off in the breeze. The RH pipe is better although close inspection shows cracks in the chrome. Apparently all caused by the inappropriate use of copper in the plating process. I have advised Draganfly but being on the wrong side of the world a bit difficult to return...
Good news from Draganfly, they will replace the defective parts *beer* *beer*