The BSA A7-A10 Forum

Technical => A7 & A10 Engine => Topic started by: Stephen Arsenal on 20.02. 2010 13:32

Title: Quick question, exhaust bracket + cable shortening
Post by: Stephen Arsenal on 20.02. 2010 13:32
Hi guys I´m in the garage and its freezing,I´m trying to fit the exhaust on the chain side ,but the bracket does´nt line up,here is a picture of how it was before I took it apart,not sure if even this was correctly fitted,or should the bracket fit on the outer side of the hole ??cheers.steve
Title: Re: Quick question,exhaust bracket
Post by: MG on 20.02. 2010 13:34
The bracket should fit on the outer side.
Depending on the exhaust pipes and the silencers it might also be necessary to add one or more washers (or spacers of differnet thickness) to align the silencers correctly (so that both have about the same angle in relation to the frame/swing arm).
Title: Re: Quick question,exhaust bracket
Post by: Stephen Arsenal on 20.02. 2010 13:34
oophs
Title: Re: Quick question,exhaust bracket
Post by: Stephen Arsenal on 20.02. 2010 13:36
Thanks Mg,any time you want to take a weeks holiday up here,just say( bring your spanners mit) danke-steve
Title: Re: Quick question,exhaust bracket
Post by: MG on 20.02. 2010 13:41
Don't say that twice, I might really come!  *smile*
When's the Techno-Classica in Essen this year?  ;)
Title: Re: Quick question,exhaust bracket
Post by: Stephen Arsenal on 20.02. 2010 13:41
Hi Mg,the other side,the clutch lever side,the bracket must go on the inside yes ?(because the the kickstar lever would hit the silencer when pushed downwards,?)
Title: Re: Quick question,exhaust bracket
Post by: MG on 20.02. 2010 13:43
Hm, actually not. You could try and swap the two silencers, as the bracket is not in the middle of the silencer usually.
Title: Re: Quick question,exhaust bracket + cable shortening
Post by: Stephen Arsenal on 20.02. 2010 13:56
Hi Mg,I guess its march,you are more than welcome to drop by (without spanners).Since you are on line,a couple of more questions.I must shorten the brake cable by about 3.2 cm,should I tie a knot in it,and then weld it into a ball or onto the end fastner,my welder guy will not cut the wire and reweld the nipple,he sayes its too dangerous.Also I have excess brake cable,does it just hang(photo 1) or does it follow the fork arm upwards (p2) cheers
Title: Re: Quick question,exhaust bracket + cable shortening
Post by: MG on 20.02. 2010 14:11
Hi Steve!

As for the cable: For shortening you would have to use silver solder. Here in Austria I got a set with flux and a solder with a low melting point (350°C) at a local hardware store (but I'm sure it is available at many places). You can work with the normal blow torch here and it works for steel, brass, stainless and copper. This is the problem with the ready-made cables, because they often use some kind of zinc alloy or something like that for the nipples, so if you shorten it, you need a new nipple (from brass or steel).
This is how you do it: You apply the solder to the point where you plan to cut the cable. Outherwise it will fan out when you cut it. Cut it and then put it through the bore of the fitting and use a centre punch or pin of some kind and a hammer to fan it out. Then you pull it back into the nipple, apply the flux and solder. File away any excess solder or overlaying cable when cooled down.

If you were nearby, I'd say drop by and I'll show you, but unfortunately its quite a piece to Münster from here.  *smile*

The cable usually hangs loose, I bent a small loop from welding wire and attached it to the middle front mudguard bracket to fix the cable a bit, so that it doesn't rub against the mudguard and fork legs all the time.
Title: Re: Quick question,exhaust bracket + cable shortening
Post by: MG on 20.02. 2010 14:13
Just remembered: In case you have the Haynes manual, I think the process of cable manufacturing is explained in there as well (incl. some pics).

If you shorten the cable, you could as well shorten the outer cover. There has to be enough excess so that it can move freely with the front wheel when you turn the handlebars, on the second pic it looks like its simply too long.

And just to make it clear once more (I think I might not have explained it clearly before): I have the cable run along the fork leg like your third photo shows, but I havent attached it ot the leg somewhere, so it runs freely down through the wire loop at the mudguard stay.

kind like that *smile*:
Title: Re: Quick question,exhaust bracket
Post by: MG on 20.02. 2010 14:49
one more thing Steve:

ALWAYS cover openings at the engine with a rag or something (cylinder bores, intake manifolds, pushrod casing, etc.). If something falls in there unnoticed you will be in serious trouble when starting here up!
Title: Re: Quick question,exhaust bracket
Post by: MG on 20.02. 2010 15:25
Steve,

I just had a flash of genius  *idea*: Your bike is a '59, isn't it? 58 and 59 had the bellied silencers with a welded-on bracket. Nowadays usually only the later version (60-62) is available. These have threads and a bolt-on bracket like in the picture.
So maybe herein lies the reason for your problem. I suppose you might be able to mount the brackets on the silencers either way round and change the distance to the frame by that (they have that double-kink and turning them round will make a difference, albeit much a smaller one than changing their position on the frame lug).

Title: Re: Quick question,exhaust bracket
Post by: Stephen Arsenal on 20.02. 2010 15:52
Hi,yes its those brackets I have,but the chain side is either off or way off,will see,will be heading back into garage as soon as the sleet clears,will cover the middle bit,cheers-steve
Title: Re: Quick question,exhaust bracket + cable shortening
Post by: jimmy on 20.02. 2010 21:30
G`day Stephen
                     a word of warning, if you are using a blowtorch don`t heat the cable red hot or you will destroy the tensile strength and put a potential failure point in it.  Also splay the cable out well in the recessed hole as this is what does most of the holding when you grab the lever, the solder is packing that stops the wire folding back.

regards JIm
Title: Re: Quick question, exhaust bracket + cable shortening
Post by: a10gf on 20.02. 2010 22:10
Adding to this double topic (too late to split, good to make a new topic when leaving the initial subject...), a few pics from one of my old books. Agree with jimmy, too much heat and it could snap when you most need it. Have used normal tin solder with correct decapant flux and got lasting results.
Title: Re: Quick question, exhaust bracket + cable shortening
Post by: chaterlea25 on 20.02. 2010 23:19
HI Stephen,
Cable soldering is a skill I was taught by an older motorcyclist when I was a teenager!

Use tinmans solder, a good flux (Bakers fluid) and the advice given about splaying the cable is very important.
DO NOT USE ELECTRICAL SOLDER
I melt some solder using an old soup ladle as a solder pot, alternate dipping the cable end in the flux and then the solder until the solder has penetrated all the strands. Wear eye protection!!!!!

I always make up my own cables as you have found they seldom fit!!!!!

I would NOT use silver solder as the temp involved will damage the cable

HTH
John  O R
Title: Re: Quick question, exhaust bracket + cable shortening
Post by: MG on 21.02. 2010 08:39
John,

Just to make it clear and to avoid misunderstandings:
I wrote about a special silver solder with a working temp. of 350°C (662°F), which is about the same temp. as with normal tin solder. This is not the one used for silver brazing which uses far higher temperatures! It has the advantage of a significantly higher tensile strength than normal tin solder, which gives me additional peace of mind for this critical application.

Another thing I forgot to mention: After the cable has cooled down after soldering, I put the nipple in the vice and give the cable a good pull to check the work. You would rather want it to come off in the vice than on the bike.

Regards, Markus
Title: Re: Quick question, exhaust bracket + cable shortening
Post by: bsa-bill on 21.02. 2010 10:37
Hi John and Marcus - a question for you

I am having problems with font TLS brake cable, can't seem to get the correct length in a cable of quality ( got one almost correct length but looked about the correct gauge for a pushbike).
I do have one good cable with a brake switch incorporated (handy, I could use it) but I had to shorten the outer and now need to shorten the inner  *red*, these cables are around twenty pounds plus.
I'm thinking of investing in a solder pot http://www.mrtechservices.co.uk/product.php/501/248/quick_100_4c_solder_pot (http://www.mrtechservices.co.uk/product.php/501/248/quick_100_4c_solder_pot)
What's your opinion
it can be bundled with lead free pellets - is lead free OK or is it significantly different from tinmans

All the best - Bill
Title: Re: Quick question, exhaust bracket + cable shortening
Post by: MG on 21.02. 2010 10:53
Bill,

I only know the lead-free stuff from electronics. The working temperature is a bit higher (around 50°C), and it is a bit more difficult to solder, yet not really a problem. But I have to say that I'm not overly impressed by that lead-free solder concerning the wetting and flow characteristics. And there are some problems associated with it (google for "tin whisker lead free", if you are interested), furthermore there's not much long-time experience available yet. So whenever I have the choice, I use the good old tin-lead alloys. I guess there is a reason why they are still using it in aerospace and medical industry.

Just my two pence worth.
Title: Re: Quick question, exhaust bracket + cable shortening
Post by: a10gf on 21.02. 2010 11:05
afaik, only use pure tin solder as used by plumbers, with a separate decapant.
Title: Re: Quick question, exhaust bracket + cable shortening
Post by: BSA_54A10 on 21.02. 2010 11:53
Lead free solder is a wank, forced upon industry by wankers with absolutely no idea what they are doing because in their infantile minds any person that comes within 1 meter of any form of lead will turn into a pillar of salt ( and be added to a big mac ).
Tin based solders are horribly complex alloys and usually contain Antimony, Bismuth. Cadminium, even Arsenic.
Soft silver solders are even worse, however a tiny amount of silver 0.005 to 0.01 % added to a lead based solder will add considerably to its' strength.
A lot of lead based solders containing silver are marketed as "silver solder", such is the impact of the multi million dollar snow job foistered upon the public by the oil companies to turn lead into Satin itself.

None of the "new" solders have the mechanical strength and wide range of applications as good old perfectly safe lead tin solder, very few are recycleable and all of them will not tollerate the tiniest amount of surface contamination.

Tinmans solder is the same as plumbers solder except that it usually contains a little iron which extends the freezing temperature range ( mushy period ) and substantially reduces dissolution of copper soldering tips oft erroniously called errosion. So is not the best for cables.
Hard plumbers solder is the way to go ( 70% Sn + 30 % Pb) and what I use on my cables applied with either a big electric iron ( and  mean big ) or better still a 4oz copper bit heated with a blow lamp.
I am not a fan of directly heating the cable with a torch for several reasons all of which revolve around the lack of proper temperature control and the fact that steel starts to form tough surface oxides from around 200 deg C ( we call them temper colours and a good example is blueing of your exhausts). You want the joint to be just hot enough to melt the solder and no more.
And yes, Bakers flux, liquid of paste is a must, as is washing it off in boiling water after you have finished as it is corrosive in nature.


And finally if you are going to buy & fit new drums to your cables the get the free floating type, not the directly soldered on type. Free floating drums will last just about forever as they allow the cable to rotate inside the drum which prevents the cable from fracturing just where the cable exits the drum and actaually transmits more of your applied force to whatever is on the other end of the cable.

If you do not know what a free floating drum looks like have a look at those universal cables that are supplied with 1/2 dozen different sized drums that slip over the cable and bear against a pear ( or ball ) on the end of the cable. Well they are the same thing but without the slot (although you can use the slotted ones ) 
Title: Re: Quick question, exhaust bracket + cable shortening
Post by: Stephen Arsenal on 21.02. 2010 12:55
OK ,fitted the exhaust,but they do´nt seem to be in harmony,the chain side sticks out much further than the right hand side.I had to put the bracket on the outside of the hole,otherwise the exhaust(even bent in the right position) cannot move far enough into the middle-the nut tightning the front footrest blocks this. er on the subject of soldier the wire,I´m going to keep on searching for a correct length one,or instead of putting a new nipple on,I´ll just measure the correct length,and tie tha cable into a neat ball and then give it the the welder to make it into a proper sphere,so that the MOT do´nt complain(must be more secure than cutting the cable and re soldering ?)granted not cricket,but patience is wearing thin,just need to get through MOT and then can get the correct cable when it turns up on evil bay.
Title: Re: Quick question, exhaust bracket + cable shortening
Post by: Stephen Arsenal on 21.02. 2010 13:00
oophs,Hi guys,the soldering issue is way over my head,but I ´ll show it to my german welder.Other pics
Title: Re: Quick question, exhaust bracket + cable shortening
Post by: Stephen Arsenal on 21.02. 2010 13:01
,
Title: Re: Quick question, exhaust bracket + cable shortening
Post by: MG on 21.02. 2010 13:09
Hi Steve!

First of all: I think welding the cable is not a good idea, because the cable will be heated far too much delivering unpredictable results in tensile strength and ductility. Soldering a new nipple on is absolutely okay when done properly. You can ask in any shop that sell and repair bicycles and/or mopeds, they usually have some in stock. If you have one and don't dare to do it yourself, I can offer you that you send me your cable, let me know the length you need and I do it for you, if you want to.
There's also a firm in Germany that makes any cable you want. I'm sure they can also change the length of yours. If you want their address, I can look it up for you.

Ref the exhausts: I think the end of the exhaust pipe should be lower. Then you can move the silencers further in and it should be okay. Usually, if you push the pipe into the exhaust port of the head, it naturally goes down on the other end. So either the bend is not correct or you just have to push it further back on top. Hard to tell without the head. I would wait for the head to return, fit everything and try again. If it still doesn't work then, there's something wrong with the pipe.
Title: Re: Quick question, exhaust bracket + cable shortening
Post by: G/F DAVE on 21.02. 2010 13:20
Hi, Stephen having looked at your photos I would say the silencer bracket is out of shape.The whole silencer looks like it needs twisting clockwise (looking from rear ) and the bracket needs to be on inside of frame mount. Also the foot rest mount looks to long.Personally I would remove the bracket from silencer then get  both silencers matching each other level wise you can hold the silencer where you want it with masking tape/wire, then either bend the bracket to fit or make a new one.I dont think there is anything wrong with the exhaust system only the mounting brackets.These thing can take a while to get right but are worth the effort. I think also I would have the cylinder head fitted before I done the bracket.Stick with it you,ll get there in the end *smiley4* Dave..
Title: Re: Quick question, exhaust bracket + cable shortening
Post by: bsa-bill on 21.02. 2010 13:32
Steve - I have similar problem with the silencers, partly due to the crank on the kickstart lever not being enough to clear the silencer on the timing side.
I got them pretty near even by using washers and a bit of lateral thinking re the brackets - there are options such as put one on the inside of the holder on one side and one on the outside on the otherside also you can turn turn the bracket to get the crank in it to put the silencer further in or out.
Thanks guys for the advice re solder pots and so forth ( apologies Steve for  hijacking your post to some degree)

All the best - Bill
Title: Re: Quick question, exhaust bracket + cable shortening
Post by: MG on 21.02. 2010 13:40
Forgot to mention: www.louis.de (http://www.louis.de) also sells various cables and nipples.
Title: Re: Quick question, exhaust bracket + cable shortening
Post by: Stephen Arsenal on 21.02. 2010 15:01
Hallo MG,thank you for your offer,I´d be be more than happy to send you both cables to shorten if you have the time.Naturally I´d pay the post both ways,if you could send me your @ then I could contact you direct.I do´nt really want to go to the local welders or bike shops,this wire shortening is too specialized (still not sure why all the firms in internet have´nt been able to produce the correct length,the front wheel doe´snt move,the rear one OK).cheers steve.       Stephen.Smith@gmx.de
Title: Re: Quick question, exhaust bracket + cable shortening
Post by: lawnmowerman on 21.02. 2010 16:27
Hi Steve

I have recently had loads of problems with pipe and silencer fit. I put twin goldies and new pipes on my 59 Super Rocket (see my previous posts). A very small movement at the head end has quite a dramatic effect at the tail end and, for what it is worth, I would wait until the head is on before fitting the pipes and silencers.
The distributer who supplied the system said "well you have always got to "fit" these systems to old bikes - they never bolt straight on." In the end I had to take an angle grinder to the pipes and take about 25-30mm off each end to get them to line up. I also had to make brackets to rear-set the goldies.

Good luck with the bike - looking forward to seeing photos when it is finished.

Jim
Title: Re: Quick question, exhaust bracket + cable shortening
Post by: PartTrader on 27.07. 2010 19:45
Hi All,

I'm going through the same silencer issues on my 61 SuperRocket.  I have had to place the bracket on the outside of the frame mounting on the chain side to accommodate the center stand and the gear lever side is just a nightmare as the kickstart hits whatever I do.  I'm looking for a kickstart with a greater offset as originally my bike had a siamese system and was ok.   
Title: Re: Quick question, exhaust bracket + cable shortening
Post by: bsa-bill on 17.08. 2011 16:02
Hi parTrader
hope you got your kickstart sorted, in the course of my projects prolonged metamorph I've got a few kickstart quadrants and noticed there is some (if little ) difference in the length of the kickstart side of the shaft, also the gearbox cover bearing for the kickstart tends to walk out on mine so I cut an old timing side bush and slipped it over the shaft between kickstart lever and gearbox cover, keeps the bearing in and gets full length of the shaft outwards for lever clearing the silencer.

On the subject of cable soldering I have at last got a solder pot (17.50 UK pounds plus 7.50 postage from China where else however two or three cables and it's paid for itself)  goes upto 400 (probably to hot) also it's a pretty big pot but possible not a bad thing for dipping an inch or cable into it.

Now just got to get some tinmans solder - thanks again for the advise 
Title: Re: Quick question, exhaust bracket + cable shortening
Post by: BSA_54A10 on 18.08. 2011 11:02
1) Markus is talking about the 0.5% to 1.5% Au/Pb solders when he says "silver solder"
2) always shorten the drum end of the cable, not the ball end.
Buy a "solderless" drum and keep it in your tool kit.
If the cable pulls through at the handlebar end ( the drum ) you can always slip the cable into the solderless drum ( clamp on ) and carry on.
If the cable pulls through the ball end it is much more difficult to bodge on the side of the road.
The ball end needs to rotate when you apply pressure so keep it clean & oiled.
Even better is to fit a free floating drum on the handlebar end so both ends of the cable can rotate.
Your cable will last a lot longer and your brakes will work better.

Title: Re: Quick question, exhaust bracket + cable shortening
Post by: bsa-bill on 18.08. 2011 16:20
taken on board Trevor - thanks
Title: Re: Quick question, exhaust bracket + cable shortening
Post by: RichardL on 18.08. 2011 19:42
This is a real late comment, but further to what Trevor said about lead in solder (back in February of last year), I covet closely my thousand-year-old spool of tin/lead electronic solder. If it was really bad, I would be a lot worse than people think I am  ;) , having used my mouth as a third hand to hold solder for about 30 years (not continuously, of course).

Richard L.
Title: Re: Quick question, exhaust bracket + cable shortening
Post by: muskrat on 18.08. 2011 21:44
And if you chewed hard enough it would act as fillings for your teeth.  *eek* *eek*
Cheers