The BSA A7-A10 Forum

Technical => A7 & A10 Engine => Topic started by: Stephen Arsenal on 23.03. 2010 18:21

Title: Help,initial MOT tomorrow,2 panic questions
Post by: Stephen Arsenal on 23.03. 2010 18:21
1.What is this hole under the alu housing,what goes in it,(any chance of a picture of the missing part (engine drain plug ??)
2.The speedo cable moves far too much when the steering goes left,should it go inside the steering colum and then down the frame ?? cheers-steve
333  er, tried to fit the air filter but there was no space anymore (took off the toolbox to try and fit it,no luck,the only way would be to take the middle carb cooling section out,not going down that street tonight)...do you guys think the MOT tester will notice its missing(pic 3)
Title: Re: Help,initial MOT tomorrow,2 panic questions
Post by: Richard on 23.03. 2010 18:52
steve that looks like the under side of the primary chaincase, if it is then it is more than likley the drain/level plug, which means there can be no oil in the chaincase, find a whitworth short bolt and fibre washer and blank it of for now, put in about a third of a pint of oil. not sure of exact amount but that will be along soon.
The speedo cable will move, if it was myself I would fasten it a bit higher up towards the head stock, do not worry about the air filter it is not an MOT requirement
Good luck
Richard
Title: Re: Help,initial MOT tomorrow,2 panic questions
Post by: alanp on 23.03. 2010 19:06
I agree with Richard and make sure you don't trap the cable on full right lock with no tight cable bends.
Alan
Title: Re: Help,initial MOT tomorrow,2 panic questions
Post by: tombeau on 24.03. 2010 07:24
And well done for all your hardwork!
It's been a joy to watch the project unfold. It's been surprisingly quick too.
Iain
Title: Re: Help,initial MOT tomorrow,2 panic questions
Post by: LJ. on 24.03. 2010 08:12
Good luck with your MOT I'm sure you'll pass it without any problem. The hole under the primary is for a small tube that allows excess oil to overflow and to determine correct level in the case, It's an important part that you'll need to order from one of the BSA suppliers I bought a new one myself not so long ago.

It's the cable that you need to get right for your MOT as you dont want the bike revving if you turn hard to one side. It doe's not matter how slack the cable is so long as it works correctly.

No wonder your air filter wont go on... There is an unnecessary large spacer between the carb and head. I would remove this and just have a quarter inch tufnel spacer there instead.

Let us know your MOT result... Good Luck!

P.S. I notice your tappet cover breather pipes... Are you having engine breathing problems top end?
Title: Re: Help,initial MOT tomorrow,2 panic questions
Post by: Stephen Arsenal on 24.03. 2010 17:37
Hi guys,I just thought I´d make the breathing pipes more secure,I habe the missing part for under the engine,but believe there should not be any oil there,is it not a screw with a small pipe,so that there is ventilation ?.The MOT guy has already warned me that I´ll be back more than once,which was´nt very comforting,but they are ultra strict.My headlight bulb blew this afternoon and cannot get a replacement,so there is the light test failed straight away.As I told Markus (forum member MG who has been fantastic giving me info that I considered too dumb to ask the open forum)on Sunday I started the bike for just 15 seconds and was staight away warned in no uncertain terms the neighbours were going to call the Ordungsampt Basically noise control police.15 seconds !!! Ok it was loud and I refrained from starting her up Sunday Morning.Münster is ultra ultra Catholic and conservative...anyway.Tomorrow is going to take about 2 hours,1.5 hours of writing documents.Took me about 6 months from a basket case to as it is now.I actually wanted it to look really beaten up and used,but had zero chance with mot,so it now looks used and not perfect (unlike the forum photo contest which were amazing bikes).Truth be told,I wish I had had the money to give it to someone and say,there,fix it,I´ll call in 6 months time,however,I´d of never had the pleasure of trying to untighten rusted together nut and bolts,or spending 2 days searching for a small part that I´d put down somewhere and forgot where 2 monthes later when needed in a -12° garage.cheers-steve (kick off is at 1530 ),I´ll be happy if they only pick up 10-15 points.
Title: Re: Help,initial MOT tomorrow,2 panic questions
Post by: LJ. on 24.03. 2010 18:25
Blimey this is painful just to read let alone going for the MOT itself... You have my fullest admiration Steve! Get the MOT done and out the way and then get riding the thing! I dont think you'll be disappointed.
Title: Re: Help,initial MOT tomorrow,2 panic questions
Post by: scotty on 24.03. 2010 20:06
Stephen

nice work on your rebuild !

A box of fresh baked lebkuchen for the MOT guys (and possibly the noise police) will go a long way.

Hope you're riding her soon

scotty
Title: Re: Help,initial MOT tomorrow,2 panic questions
Post by: chaterlea25 on 24.03. 2010 22:12
HI Stephen,
Best of Luck with the MOT
The bolt with the tube attached is a level checking and drainplug in one item!!
Remove the big part to drain the oil
Refit the bolt with the tube and fill the case until oil drips out, leave till all the drips stop. (Bike level on its wheels)
Then a 1/4 BSF (or Cycle thread) short threaded plug is screwed into the tapped hole in the bigger hex to plug the hole

As such there is no breather in the chain case, only the "iffy" fit of the scrool behind the clutch!!!

HTH
John O R
Title: Re: Help,initial MOT tomorrow,2 panic questions
Post by: LJ. on 25.03. 2010 00:21
Quote
As such there is no breather in the chain case, only the "iffy" fit of the scrool behind the clutch!!!

Actually the clutch adjusting screw plug has a very small hole, hardly a breather though.
Title: Re: Help,initial MOT tomorrow,2 panic questions
Post by: Stephen Arsenal on 25.03. 2010 03:43
Hallo chaterlea25,thanks for the info,is the oil only the suplus oil that drips off the chain,if the other oil lays in the bottom what does it lubricate ? there are no moving working parts down there and the bike is´nt going to be shaken around enough for the oil to fly onto the chain and chain parts ?Is it quite a lot f oil or just a teacup full ? thanks as always-steve
Title: Re: Help,initial MOT tomorrow,2 panic questions
Post by: tombeau on 25.03. 2010 14:17
We don't have MOTS for bikes here  *smile*
What a forward minded liberal thinking bunch the Finns are.
Cheers,
Iain
Title: Re: Help,initial MOT tomorrow,2 panic questions
Post by: chaterlea25 on 25.03. 2010 17:01
Hi Stephen,
I went and found an old plug/level thingy today
It measures 1.250in from the upper face of the big hexagon to the top of the tube
the tube itself is 0.83in (protruding)
This will give you approx 1in. of oil depth in the case, this is enough for the bottom run to dip into and lube itself
The Haynes Book gives contradicting amounts on the same page 95cc and 225cc?????
Just pourit in till is drips out!!
I use 10/40 Motorcycle oil suitable for wet clutches (NOT car oil) some people favour ATF
HTH
John
Title: Re: Help,initial MOT tomorrow,2 panic questions
Post by: Stephen Arsenal on 25.03. 2010 20:57
Hi Lads,got away with only 4 points,3 easy ones,one so so,report to follow (inspector half broke his leg pushing down far too hard to kick start...seemed to lose intrest after that,still Ok bloke)
Title: Re: Help,initial MOT tomorrow,2 panic questions
Post by: Stephen Arsenal on 26.03. 2010 14:53
Hi,no 1 headlight did´nt function(there was no bulb in-blew beforehand.2.Tacho had to also have kilometer points,drawn,painted,transfered on.He did´nt like the brake stop switch,he said it looked like his children had fixed the wires onto it(will take it off completely for next re-inspection.And last and not least the rear brake spring has to be at a vertical,180° angle,not sure how to do this(picture 1)I can get either 4 or 8 o clock but not 6....any ideas  anyone  (the brake shoes are in good nick,someone said I should make the turning pin larger by wrapping meta around it so makes thecylinder element larger ?)cheers-steve..very happy with yesterday
Title: Re: Help,initial MOT tomorrow,2 panic questions
Post by: A10Boy on 26.03. 2010 16:50
I have sympathy for you, but to be brutally honest I am tempted to say that you seem to have very little mechanical understanding and that you should get someone with knowledge and experience to have a look at it before you ride it - for your own safety.

The breather pipes shouldn't be there, a properly built engine doesnt need them.

The hole in the "engine" is a level drain plug hole in the chaincase just as people have already advised.

The rear brake shoes are obviously worn and need replacing. You took it for mot when you knew it wasnt ready, why ?? The tester would take one look at it and be concerned over its safety.

I would be worried about what other unseen things could be wrong - I would seriously suggest you get someone who understands mechanicals to take a look before you ride it.

Good luck
Title: Re: Help,initial MOT tomorrow,2 panic questions
Post by: Stephen Arsenal on 26.03. 2010 17:04
Wow thats quite heavy mate (if not elitist )
Title: Re: Help,initial MOT tomorrow,2 panic questions
Post by: Stephen Arsenal on 26.03. 2010 17:12
Sorry A10 ignore that,I thought you said I should sell it to someone with more understand of technical knowledge.I knew I would´nt get it through without a bulb,but at least I know now what I have to do.
Title: Re: Help,initial MOT tomorrow,2 panic questions
Post by: LJ. on 26.03. 2010 17:28
Relax Steve I'm sure Andy doesn't mean to sound harsh, if anything it is good of him to show concern for you...

The rear brake effort does look bad and does not surprise me that it is a failure point. The angle of brake arm is too far forward and should be more 8 or 7 o'clock angle, 6pm the minimum. The brake shoes could well be okay and not worn down but, has the brake drum been skimmed too much? and is the cam a smaller of fatter one? (see my picture for explanation of what I mean here) The fatter cam helps to compensate for worn shoes and skimmed drum. I don't think there should be an external spring wrapped around the base of lever like shown, this seems to suggest to me that there are no springs on the brake shoes.

It's good that your having a go with the mechanical aspects as we all have to learn at sometime, I've indeed learnt such a lot with my own machines. Good Luck!  *smile*
Title: Re: Help,initial MOT tomorrow,2 panic questions
Post by: Stephen Arsenal on 26.03. 2010 17:42
Yes sorry Andy,bit too fast off the cuff,with the fantastic help from the forum members (on and off the forum) its been nut for nut rebuild by asking others . Sorry again-steve
Title: Re: Help,initial MOT tomorrow,2 panic questions
Post by: RichardL on 26.03. 2010 19:19
Stephen,

Though it requires disagreeing with my friend LJ, I think I must add that the spring wrapped around the base seems quite necessary in order to return the brake pedal to the up position. Of couse. LJ is correct with regard to the position of the arm. It needs to be pulled off and rotated clockwise one or two points with respect to the internal star of the arm hole. Now, what is going to happen to the spring when you do this? If the spring is wound too tight where is sits in the picture, it may be just right once the arm is in the correct position. If it gets too loose when the arm is in the correct position, then the stop end of the sping might be deformed or stopped against the incorrect point.

In writing this, I'm asking myself if the arm position is just the result of worn shoes. I could be, but it almost doesn't matter (unless the shoes are dangerously worn). If the shoes are worn such that the arm is in the position shown, by adjustment of the cable, then the arm still needs to be repositioned to compensate for the wear in the shoes. Once the arm is back at the correct angle, work it to see how far the cam must turn to engage the brake. If it is a long way, you may need to go one more point clockwise on the star and preload the cam with the cable. At some point, this would become a clear indication of very worn shoes, maybe not making noise, but probabaly pretty close to it. In any case, they might be good enough to pass your dread MOT, so you can postpone replacing the shoes (just a very short time, please) .

Richard L.

P.S. As just a tiny tease, maybe change your topic to "MOT pending, just 50 more questions". They will be answered, even if, maybe, you should ask a mechanic to peek at your work.
Title: Re: Help,initial MOT tomorrow,2 panic questions
Post by: Stephen Arsenal on 26.03. 2010 20:22
Thanks Richard for the tip.I have one mechanic who deals with english bikes,however he did´nt really want to take on this work/restoration because he deals mainly with trial bikes and has´nt worked on a oldie Brit bike for years.I am also not really cost effective for him against other rich semi profi trial riders.I could´nt find anyone,one guy wanted about 120 pounds an hour.There were two profi guys in germany,but they were only for very very rich customers.Fact was/is,after trying a couple of guys who talked the talk .....I ended up with nobody.So my mechanic said he would check the engine as a favour (we were both in the music business years ago),and that was it,he helped out when he could,I dreaded calling him up to ask something because that was´nt the deal.However he did what he could,and was very fair with his prices.There will be no more questions I guess as I´m 98% there,and want to thank everyone for tolerating basic questions (and very boring)for the past 5 monthes,if it had´nt been for this forum,and the helpfullness,I would of sold her on.Still there is one more BSA saved.I´ve seen the Youtube video from BSA Bills ride across Australia and thats what I want to do on this bike within the next 10 years.cheers-steve
Title: Re: Help,initial MOT tomorrow,2 panic questions
Post by: a10gf on 26.03. 2010 20:27
You do a great job. Learning as one goes along, always think safety first, and sort out problems as they come. I started in the blind, and picked up some meager basic skills over time, and my own mistakes were great teachers :O)
'we were both in the music business years ago' me too, btw.

erling
Title: Re: Help,initial MOT tomorrow,2 panic questions
Post by: A10Boy on 26.03. 2010 20:34
LJ
Sorry mate but I have to disagree with your comment that a fatter cam compensates for worn shoes and or skimmed drum. It might help make the shoes touch the drum giving the sense that its adjusted ok, but in reality, the two would have different radii, and the shoes would only contact the drum at the ends leading to a poor brake with fast wear.
Any skimmed drum needs over sized shoes fitted to have the same radius as the drum.

PS off to Vale Onslow's tomorrow for an mot on the black flash.

PPS Stephen,
I don't worry about "ists" or "isms" mate, I don't do political correctness here, its another unwanted modern invention that I can do without. Anyway, like I said, good luck with your MOT and keep asking the questions, we all had to learn.
Title: Re: Help,initial MOT tomorrow,2 panic questions
Post by: RichardL on 26.03. 2010 20:57
Stephen,

Absolutely agree with Erling. You've done a great job getting your bike to this point and you will (consider that an order) have a great time riding it. Also, don't say you're at the end of the questions, the most knowledgeable people here (which excludes me) still have the occasional question (I have far more than the "occasional").

Richard L.

Title: Re: Help,initial MOT tomorrow,2 panic questions
Post by: Richard on 26.03. 2010 21:24
forgive me for taking this long to reply to your posting of the rear brake, and well done so far.
To me gentlemen the position of the brake plate seems incorrect possibly due to the anchor arm being a tad short, look at the photo and note the position of the cable , it seems to be coming at a downward angle, is this correct?, imagine if you can the position of the brake arm if the drum was rotated clockwise to bring the cable entry on a more level keel this would then require a longer anchor arm, but would almost put the brake arm in the correct plane, without altering the return spring tension
. ignore all this as incorrect, see my next post
I have taken a picture of mine to compare, hope this helps
Richard
Title: Re: Help,initial MOT tomorrow,2 panic questions
Post by: Richard on 26.03. 2010 21:29
having just posted and compared the pictures I can now see I am incorrect, the cable is at that angle due to the incorrect position of the brake arm.
I could have removed the post but at least it shows one to compare to, also note that I have not got a spring on the brake arm but a long coil spring on the cable , which is doing the same thing, which is correct?
Richard it may be LJ is correct about the spring as I also have a spring on the brake arm which i believe is standard, it may be a year thing mine is 1961
Richard
Title: Re: Help,initial MOT tomorrow,2 panic questions
Post by: RichardL on 26.03. 2010 22:26
Richard,

Having seen yours, now I'm not so sure about the spring any more (sorry LJ). My '55, with rod pull, uses a spring similar to Stephen's, so I thought the operation on the right would be similar to the operation on the left. I can't quite tell from the picures, but it seems Stephen might have a longer boss sticking out from the brake plate, around which the spring wraps, whereas, the boss  can't be seen very well in your photos (and neither can Bruce Springsteen).

Richard L.
Title: Re: Help,initial MOT tomorrow,2 panic questions
Post by: LJ. on 27.03. 2010 10:38
Well here are my back brakes... No evidence of any external springs at any time, I've even looked at the base plate to if there has been any wear and there is none.

Interesting comment from Andy, thanks for that, I can understand your explanation having given further thought to this.
Title: Re: Help,initial MOT tomorrow,2 panic questions
Post by: tombeau on 27.03. 2010 11:08
Hi Stephen,
Does your brake operating arm have a square hole or a star shaped one?
When I got my bike it had a square hole limiting the number of positions it could be fitted by. I don't know if these are differnt part numbers, or if mine was off a different bike entirely.
Cheers,
Iain
Title: Re: Help,initial MOT tomorrow,2 panic questions
Post by: Stephen Arsenal on 27.03. 2010 12:03
Hi LJ took everything apart this morning,shoes are in good shape,I´ve turned the bracket to your suggested 8,0 clock and actually its perfect,the rear footbrake lever has the perfect pressure and toe tap distance.However my mot guy wants it vertical, at 6 o clock. I will print your rear brakedrum picture with  your comments about the 8 o clock and see if he will accept it.He did have right with the 4 o clock position (in my defence your honour it was´nt I who adjusted it there).
Hi Tom it has a square hole,so its either 4 or 8 o clock.Some told me that the 3 stars next to the 3 faults were only strongly recomendations and not reason to fail the MOT because those things still functioned.So the only thing it really failed on(if true) was the headlight test which the bulb was broken (have ordered 2 new ones).
Title: Re: Help,initial MOT tomorrow,2 panic questions
Post by: RichardL on 27.03. 2010 13:34
Having embroiled myself in this discussion and unable (or unwilling) to extract myself, I have a couple more observations and my own questions. I see Stephen has left the spring in place, LJ has no spring at that location and Andy has yet another approach. My parts book, covering '54-'56, shows "rear brake pedal retun spring" (42-4355). This appears to be on the end of the cross-shaft. I'm assuming LJ's bikes (and, maybe, Andy's) have this spring out of view of the pictures, while Stephen's might have this spring at the cross-shaft plus an orphan spring at the brake lever (shown in my book as a cast part with a star hole). Stephen, dost thou haveth said springy thing at the end of thy cross-shaft  EDIT: on the left side?

On another point, it appears that Stephen's after-market brake cable has the wrong diameter lock nut that is not contacting the brake cable abuttment (I love those terms straight from the book). I wonder why the MOT officer didn't mention this.

Richard L.
Title: Re: Help,initial MOT tomorrow,2 panic questions
Post by: LJ. on 27.03. 2010 18:59
I was going to mention this spring on the end of the brake pedal cross-shaft, all three of my A10s have this (see picture) Bear in mind Richard that all three of my bikes mentioned here are 1960 models.

Steve... I'd be very happy with that angle, in fact you'll see in my last  post the three pics, one has this angle and is the better brake of the three. The one with the six O' clock angle is okay and still a good working brake.

Before someone asks why are the angles both different, the answer is... I don't know! and while all are functioning satisfactorily I'm leaving well alone.  *smile*
Title: Re: Help,initial MOT tomorrow,2 panic questions
Post by: A10Boy on 27.03. 2010 19:52
Stephen
I cant believe that a competent MOT tester [presumably at a MC dealer/garage] would fail a bike due to a blown headlight bulb. Any tester worth his salt would just change the bulb while he tested the bike so you could leave with an MOT, not fail the bike then leave you to go away and order one. Don't they sell bulbs there ? If you are on 6v which some places don't stock, maybe you should keep a few "consumables" in your garage.

I also think hes being really pedantic about your rear brake, why not take it somewhere else and tell him to go away?
Title: Re: Help,initial MOT tomorrow,2 panic questions
Post by: MG on 27.03. 2010 20:11
Quote
I also think hes being really pedantic

No, he's just being really German.  *smile*

I think it is hard to imagine for any Englishman how fussy German (as well as Austrian) authorities are when it comes to vehicle inspections.
Legislation here just is like that, these guys are simply doing their work. If one of them wants to, he can make your life a misery, so it probably isn't a good idea to tell him to go to hell. Especially as the things this guy criticised are bothersome without question, but relatively easy to put right. Just imagine what happens when they start arguing about things like noise or emission.

And being an official, changing bulbs not being part of his decided field of responsibility, you might just as well expect him to jump on his left foot whilst singing "The Irish Rover". No way!
Title: Re: Help,initial MOT tomorrow,2 panic questions
Post by: Stephen Arsenal on 27.03. 2010 20:49
things over here are very strict and its better to say yes sir you are the boss (and swallow your tongue and really want to give him an right uppercut,and he knows this too) ,I could of left with a far bloodier nose.The bulb blew about 5 hours before the test( I called around for a spare,no luck),if I had cancelled,I´d of still had to pay for this test,or my name would of registerted next time and I´d of started off -2 points.The guy did´nt check many things,but I spent today cutting out stupid white sticks with arrows to put onto the speedo which indicate kilometers instead of mile per hour-.He knows as soon as the test is over I´m going to take them off as well as refit the brake light switch,but thats the game.In germany there is no grey,its black or its white.I take my oldtimer cars over 700 miles to france to get them MOT´  d so sparing myself the ordeal of the german inspection.Thing is most of the tester guys are only doing their job which is filling out a fault sheet,they can make you or break you.All said and done,the guy was fair,but he kept me waiting over 30 minutes whilst he called a fellow member on the telephone talking about the world and its problems,letting me know he was the big man.Thank god for Karma
Title: Re: Help,initial MOT tomorrow,2 panic questions
Post by: trevinoz on 27.03. 2010 23:06
Stephen,
                   I think you will find your rear brake plate started life on an A65.
They had the spring wrapped around the lever.
The A10 only had the spring around the pedal plus the springs on the shoes.
   Trev.
Title: Re: Help,initial MOT tomorrow,2 panic questions
Post by: Stephen Arsenal on 28.03. 2010 05:39
Thanks Trev,Now I know what I´m doing next month.Thanks A10 boy,I only fitted the rocker cover with the breather outlets because they were on there,I know what I´m doing next weekend.cheers-steve