The BSA A7-A10 Forum

Technical => A7 & A10 Engine => Topic started by: lawnmowerman on 30.03. 2010 10:31

Title: Anti wet sumping valve with combined kill switch
Post by: lawnmowerman on 30.03. 2010 10:31
Hi All

While looking at the bikes for sale on ebay on a wet afternoon last week I saw a Norton Commando for sale and the owner had fitted a valve in the oil line to prevent wet sumping but here is the clever bit - it had a combined electrical switch in to cut off power to the ignition to prevent starting with the oil shut off.
I know that the Commando is coil ignition but it could be possible to connect the switch to earth the magneto on an A10 when the valve is off so that the sparks from the mag are killed, thus preventing start up.
Has anybody done this before and does anybody know where I could get an oil valve with a combined 3 pole changeover switch?
I know that it will not be fail safe like the Commando where even if the wires fall off or the switch fails the bike will still not start but if there is an electrical open circuit using the kill switch method the bike could potentially be allowed to start with the valve still switched off.
I also saw a bike in the past which had a long red lever on the valve which when closed was in the way of the kickstart lever preventing operation.

Any thoughts?

Jim
Title: Re: Anti wet sumping valve with combined kill switch
Post by: muskrat on 30.03. 2010 12:29
G'day Jim,
             I have been thinking about a AWSV for my '51 as it only takes 2 weeks to empty the tank into the sump then seeps into primary and then all over the floor !!! But like you, would want a safe system.
I was thinking along the lines of a solenoid activated valve wired into the ign switch (I use Boyer ign). So when power (sparks, electricky) is on the valve is open. The switch could also un-earth the magy on yours.
I'm not that up on whats available in switches or valves, but if I thought of it I'm sure someone else has and made it. Just got to find the right one.
I like the big red lever blocking the kick start.
Cheers.
Title: Re: Anti wet sumping valve with combined kill switch
Post by: lawnmowerman on 30.03. 2010 12:48
G'day Muskrat

Solenoid would be a good idea but not sure if I would want to trust it staying open or a wire dropping off or a fuse blowing at high speed - wouldn't take long to seize if you were too slow in whipping in the clutch (and you would not know it had closed until the engine seized). I have had bad experiences with the reliability of solenoids in cars.
If an oil valve with a three pole changeover switch were available it would suit all eventualities and if you were to power your leccie ignition via the "make" set of contacts it would truly be fail safe as the engine would stop both in the event of the oil valve being manually closed or an open circuit through the switch and wiring. Mag A10s would use the "break" set of contacts and earth one side although it would not be fail safe.
I am also thinking of fitting an oil pressure gauge - seems quite straightforward having read a few items on the forum.
There are people on the forum from all trades and professions so perhaps someone may know where we can source a valve.

Jim
Title: Re: Anti wet sumping valve with combined kill switch
Post by: alanp on 30.03. 2010 13:03
Jim, I've fitted an oil pressure gauge to mine with the gauge in my line of sight between the two clocks on my RGS. This gives me a comfort factor but doesn't prevent wet sumping. However, if combined with an ASV a quick look at the gauge after starting will confirm that the ASV hasn't stuck closed and also at high revs another quick look at the pressure will confirm the oil pump inlet isn't being starved. As you said the fitment of pressure gauges is on the forum. There isn't any electrickery involved.
Alan
(http://)
Title: Re: Anti wet sumping valve with combined kill switch
Post by: muskrat on 30.03. 2010 13:08
Yes I see what you mean. My oil pressure gauge would tell me, I ride with one eye on it. (hang on I only got one that works)LOL. It's quite easy to install a OPG and a good feeling to know you have some. Mine runs 50psi hot at 1500 rpm and 20 psi at idle. It will be quite some time before I get into the guts of it to fix the problem as it's only done 20 thousand since last freshen up.
cheers
PS Alan,
           Please no electrickery, watts that, ohm is where the heart is, no bad joints just bad trips.
Title: Re: Anti wet sumping valve with combined kill switch
Post by: groily on 30.03. 2010 16:28
Jim,
You could try calling A W Dove, 322 Skip Lane, Walsall, WS5 3RA on 01922 623571.
He sells taps with a magneto earth built in for AMC twins and singles. I think he sells lots of them as AMCs are notorious! I don't have his taps on my own AJS/Matchless twins as I made my own, so I don't know what the dimensions are - but he might be able to give you enough data to tell you whether the thing would fit or what level of plumbing would be needed to make one fit. I've seen his installed on Nortons as well, but that's as far as my knowledge goes. A mag earth is easier than most things to rig up - as long as the earth is reliable.
Some people fit taps with levers which the kickstart forces open just in case! Not elegant - but could save an engine if no other fail-safe were included. For there are a few people out there who rued the day they ever thought of fitting a tap, I've met a couple!
Like others, I'd avoid solenoids like the plague . .

Title: Re: Anti wet sumping valve with combined kill switch
Post by: Goldy on 30.03. 2010 17:45
I have had problems with wet sumping on my A10. I removed the oil sump plate and drilled a hole in the centre. I got a local engineering company to make a boss fitted with a hex plug which I then welded into the sump plate. If the bike has been standing for a few days I remove the plug and allow the oil to drain out, refit the plug and I am away, only takes a couple of minutes, no problem simple as that. I filter the oil and use it again. The simple ideas are the best.
Title: Re: Anti wet sumping valve with combined kill switch
Post by: A10Boy on 30.03. 2010 20:34
You can buy proper finned alloy ones for about £20, ebay has them and they are delivered to your door.

 *smile*
Title: Re: Anti wet sumping valve with combined kill switch
Post by: BSA_54A10 on 31.03. 2010 11:54
And when you do, get one that has the drain plug in the side, not the middle.
instal it with the drain plug on the left side then you can drain it with the bike on the side stand.
More important if it falls out then you lubricate your left boot and get lots of smoke off the left pipe to warn you what has happened.
Put it in the middle and the first time you notice that it has fallen out will be as you slide down the road getting oil splattered on your face off the rear tyre.
Title: Re: Anti wet sumping valve with combined kill switch
Post by: muskrat on 31.03. 2010 19:44
Those finned sump plates are neat, just don't be too ham fisted with the spanner. I've had to helicoil both of mine. I aslo drilled the plug for lock wire.
Most of us here know that wet sumping is due to the little ball and spring hiding inside the cases behind that little screw. In future anytime I split the cases it will be replaced. But in the meantime a valve would be good.
Cheers
Title: Re: Anti wet sumping valve with combined kill switch
Post by: lawnmowerman on 31.03. 2010 20:55
Hi All

Thanks for the ideas. I like the look of the OPG on your RGS Alan - I will probably fit one in the same place. What flexible oil line did you use? My tacho drive is on the side of the timing case so there is plenty of room to fit a union by the OPR valve on the flat surface to the side. Is it possible to do it without dismantling the covers or is the risk of swarf in the oil too great (even if I changed the oil aterwards)?
The PO has fitted one of the finned sump jobbies with a drain plug but I am getting too lazy to drop the plug out before rides - I will certainly drill it for a lock wire. He also fitted a one way valve so removing that is my first job.
Thanks for the contact for the AMC oil tap Groily - I will give him a call tomorrow.

Jim
Title: Re: Anti wet sumping valve with combined kill switch
Post by: cus on 31.03. 2010 21:19
G'day All,
Thought this article might be interesting for some.
There are quite a few reasons why a bike will wet sump.
http://bunnbreather.bigblog.com.au/post.do?id=219490

regards, Cus
Title: Re: Anti wet sumping valve with combined kill switch
Post by: alanp on 31.03. 2010 22:14
Jim, the pipework from the engine to the gauge is small bore copper up the an adaptor under the tank and then clear/white flexible up to the gauge to cope with steering movement. All components came from Speedograph Richfield (check out their web site). You can specify the pipe lengths to them so that they can correctly fit the pipe end fittings for you. Tim is the phone guy and is very helpful but know what you want from their listing to suit your needs before you phone and he'll make sure things will fit together.
It is possible to drill and tap for the case fitting without a major tear down, but take care you know precisely where to drill relative to the oil galleries near the end of the PRV. Don't drill too far out towards the PRV or you'll end up only seeing the oil pressure when the PRV opens. Check PRV insertion length into the case to work this out.
Try to block off if you can and I used a vacuum cleaner to help extract any small alum. bits during the work which needs to be carried out in small steps to reduce the quantity of bits produced at any moment.
Others on this forum have done this and may add some extra words of wisdom.
Alan
Title: Re: Anti wet sumping valve with combined kill switch
Post by: muskrat on 01.04. 2010 11:30
G'day Cus,
              just put a bunn on the cafe. Seems to work, less oil leaks, revs a little quicker.
Cheers
Title: Re: Anti wet sumping valve with combined kill switch
Post by: BSA_54A10 on 01.04. 2010 22:41
Quote
Thought this article might be interesting for some.
There are quite a few reasons why a bike will wet sump.
http://bunnbreather.bigblog.com.au/post.do?id=219490

A very good move Musky.
Rex, who designed the "improved" breather because he was too lazy to pull the barrel of his B40 and do the traditional fix to stop oil running up the stud and leaking from under the head nut washer, has now become a world authority on crank case breathing.
Seems that no one in the past actually did much in the way of research into crankcase breathing each designer just followed the theories of the previous generations ( make a vaccuum in there and it won't leak ). The idea of pulling fresh air into the cases then expelling the old air had just not been done.

Auckland uni ( I think ) has just made a research grant available so they should be some substantial improvements in the next few years.
Most of the ones fitted to members bikes have gone onto singles but a BSA twin is in effect a 2 cylinder single due to the 360 deg crank.
Apparently the historic racers have taken to them big time and get significantly more power & better acceleration from the breathing system.

Talk about giant elms from little acorns.
Best still is that he now has access to better materials consultants that myself so he should be able to find or have made better valves. At present he still cuts them by hand from scrap rather than buying them in prepunched from virgin material which effectivly halves the price. The stuff ( which I will not reveal) is more expensive than carbon fiber impregnated kevlar.
Title: Re: Anti wet sumping valve with combined kill switch
Post by: muskrat on 02.04. 2010 04:19
Yes Trevor, it all sounded like good sense. With my old race motor I did away with the timed breather and vented through the oil tank to atmosphere. Now what I've done is cut off the end of the timed breather to expose the hole. From where it exits the cases i have fitted a hose, valve and filter. This is now the inlet. The exhaust is from the rocker box to the oil tank then out to atmosphere via valve.
Cheers
Title: Re: Anti wet sumping valve with combined kill switch
Post by: Tom23 on 07.04. 2010 16:55
I fitted a BriTie anti-wetsumping valve, its simple to fit and as its a ball and spring you don't need to turn it on and off.
See ebay uk shop bsa unlimited, or email britie.motorcycle@virgin.net
Title: Re: Anti wet sumping valve with combined kill switch
Post by: olev on 08.04. 2010 06:45
Muskrat,
With your Bunn breather, I see you vent through the rockers.
I would have thought there isn't much of a path from the crankcase to the rockers for relief.
Do you get much air coming out?
I've been interested in these for a while. (even posted the OBA article somewhere on this forum)
I was thinking of boring out the hole in the timing cover for extra relief.
Your trick of cutting the end off the timed breather sounds good as it shouldn't be needed with his valve. Can you post a pic showing how you set up the intake?
Interesting stuff, this
cheers
Title: Re: Anti wet sumping valve with combined kill switch
Post by: muskrat on 08.04. 2010 07:43
G'day Olev,
                the two oil return holes in the ex valve wells seem to cope but would probably retard oil returning a little. I can hear the valve working. I didn't want to drill any holes in the cases, like the one on Rex's web page. So thought of using the original breather hole. I opened it up a tad and inserted a hose fitting and plumbed it to the filter and valve sitting near the genny. By cutting the timed breather thingy I am able to still use the cork to stop cam end float. All works well, I might re-position the filter higher up to get away from front wheel spray.
I knew I should have taken pictures. Doh !
Cheers
Title: Re: Anti wet sumping valve with combined kill switch
Post by: lawnmowerman on 09.04. 2010 16:38
Thanks Groily. I have called AW Dove and he does a tap complete with a mag kill switch combined for £38 inc hose adapter for the engine side and a tail for the tank side which can be fitted to the solid pipe tail from the tank with a hose clamp or a compression adapter which I will probably go for. Price includes UK postage. I will order one and post some pics when it is fitted.
Thanks for the suggestion re the non return valve Tom. The PO has fitted one but having read a few previous threads about these valves there seems to be mixed opinion about their safety. I seem to remember reading somewhere that fitting one with a SRM pump invalidates warranty although I may be wrong - memory is not so good nowadays! I have decided to remove the one way valve for safety's sake and go for a manual tap.
G'day Muskrat. Like the sound of the Bunn breather kit - not quite sure how the crankcase breathes at present without spending some time looking at the engine books but it seems that there can be intermittent pressure build up with the timed breather from what I have read here and also build up of exhaust blowby. Probably a job for next winter though.
Thanks everybody else for the advice - this forum is absolutely superb.
Jim
Title: Re: Anti wet sumping valve with combined kill switch
Post by: BSA_54A10 on 10.04. 2010 07:58
The Bri-Tie anti wet sumping valve is just a larger version of what BSA fitted as standard.
So you are just duplicating what is already there.
Lesser marques do not have the spring valve fitted so either just trusted things to luck ( Notrun) or fitted a trust to memory tap ( Velo ).
Title: Re: Anti wet sumping valve with combined kill switch
Post by: Triton Thrasher on 10.04. 2010 15:45
The Bri-Tie anti wet sumping valve is just a larger version of what BSA fitted as standard.

Are you sure? Don't BSAs have a valve downstream of the feed pump?  I've been wrong before, though.

Quote
a trust to memory tap ( Velo ).

Are you sure?  At least some velos have a ball valve on the tank outlet.
Title: Re: Anti wet sumping valve with combined kill switch
Post by: BSA_54A10 on 10.04. 2010 23:10
To the oil it is the same.
Ball bearing spring loaded on a seat in oil line or in crankcase behind pump.
Only real difference is the aftermarket item uses a bigger ball & the actual position.

And no I am not sure exactly which models of the lessser marques had what fitted or not fitted.
An associate with a Vello removed his factory fitted tap under the oil tank after he forgot to turn it on .
Not sure which model, if it is not a BSA then it is just "some other motorcycle " to me.

I do know that Commandos do not have any sort of valve as we used to run with the NOC for many years and I have seen many of them drain the sump before trying to start their bikes and got the whole sob story.
If you think a sump 1/2 full of oil makes an A10 hard to kick, try the same thing with a Commando !
Title: Re: Anti wet sumping valve with combined kill switch
Post by: trevinoz on 10.04. 2010 23:17
Late Commandos have a check valve in the timing cover to stop wet sumping.
I can kick my Atlas with a full sump except in Winter when the oil gets a bit viscous!
  Trev.
Title: Re: Anti wet sumping valve with combined kill switch
Post by: Triton Thrasher on 11.04. 2010 00:42
To the oil it is the same.
Ball bearing spring loaded on a seat in oil line or in crankcase behind pump.
Quote

There's a big difference between a valve before the pump and a valve after the pump.


Quote
And no I am not sure exactly which models of the lessser[sic] marques had what fitted or not fitted.

Fair enough.
Title: Re: Anti wet sumping valve with combined kill switch
Post by: olev on 20.05. 2010 13:36
I've heard of a modification where the oil non return valve (spring & ball) is moved so it can be got at behind the pump, instead of from inside the cases. Does anyone know how its done?
I think the A65s did it this way.
cheers
Title: Re: Anti wet sumping valve with combined kill switch
Post by: trevinoz on 20.05. 2010 22:08
Olev,
            This is possibly a SRM mod.
I gather the hole behind the pump is drilled through and a new spring and ball fitted.
Sounds easy enough if the engine is pulled down/
  Trev.
Title: Re: Anti wet sumping valve with combined kill switch
Post by: bsa-bill on 20.05. 2010 22:41
Ah a mystery solved, I read an article in Real Classic where the guy remarked about the fitting the spring and ball behind the pump before fitting the pump and there was a picture as well that confirmed it, mind you the engine had an end feed conversion also.
Title: Re: Anti wet sumping valve with combined kill switch
Post by: chaterlea25 on 20.05. 2010 23:34
Hi All
I have an engine on the bench with this mod caried out I will take some pics tomorrow
and post them, its simple enough looking, I will measure how deep the hole is or how far the plug inside is away from the pump face,
My SR has this mod done since the end fed job was done, you have to be especially careful that fibres from the gasket do not interfere with the ball seating against the pump body, my SR was wet sumping away even with a new oilpump until I figured that out *ex* *ex* *ex*
No probs since though *smile* *smile*
Cheers
John O R
Title: Re: Anti wet sumping valve with combined kill switch
Post by: chaterlea25 on 22.05. 2010 23:11
Hi All
Some photos of the modified ball valve assembly *ex*
I am not sure if the same ball and spring are used or are they from an A65 ???? ????
The hole is drilled out to 8mm and the grub screw fitted from the inside is faced flat
The grub screw end face is just under 25mm from the oilpump face
hopefully the photos will explain!!
Cheers
John O R
Title: Re: Anti wet sumping valve with combined kill switch
Post by: trevinoz on 23.05. 2010 00:05
John,
            What size ball is used? 5/16"?
            Trev.
Title: Re: Anti wet sumping valve with combined kill switch
Post by: olev on 23.05. 2010 04:30
Thanks JohnO,
I'll be assembling my A7 bottom end shortly (been saying that for 6 months).
After reading all the grief experienced with wet sumping I thought it would be nice to be able to get at the valve without ripping the cases apart.
This mod looks like a good thing but I'm not sure how well it will work without other mods added during the roller conversion.
I notice Beeza Bill's (rip) page shows how he did it on 'oil gallery parts drawing' and 'oil gallery dimension drawing' but I'm too thick to understand it.
http://bsa-a10.hailwood.com/mybsaa10rollerconversion.html
Is it as simple as drilling it out and dropping in a spring and ball bearing?
Title: Re: Anti wet sumping valve with combined kill switch
Post by: chaterlea25 on 23.05. 2010 19:13
Hi Olev and Trev,
The ball bearing is 1/4in. and the hole 5/16in (8mm)
Remember that the oil must flow past it on the way to the vitals *ex* *ex*
the ball seats against the back face of the pump, a very very light tap may be used to seat it if necessary,
as the pump body is very soft,
Make sure the gasket doesnt foul the spring or the face of the pump where it will sit against
I make my own close fitting gaskets so as they will not move while assembling the pump
The bottom of the hole is flat due to the end of the grubscrew being faced off
HTH
John O R
Title: Re: Anti wet sumping valve with combined kill switch
Post by: Big Nick on 23.05. 2010 20:42
i have a srm sump plate with a drain nut on it with a magnet, very easy just undo the nut , wipe crud of nut, put back more oil and off we go. best is to use the bike every day then no problems.
Title: Re: Anti wet sumping valve with combined kill switch
Post by: Rocket Racer on 05.10. 2010 05:31
By cutting the timed breather thingy I am able to still use the cork to stop cam end float.

On the topic of the timed breather, I note that an article in classic bike referring to Cake Street Classic's "How to fettle BSA twins" (pre unit) talks about extending the hole elongated to the right to a total length of 12mm.

I also have an article from the NZBSAOC that refers to a letter by David Munro from BSA's technical department to a NZ A10 racer in the fifties, that refers to drilling a new location hole to give the mechanical breather give a 30 degree retard for racing (??)

I'm currently considering what to do to my stock breather timing which is now routed to a catch bottle.
Title: Re: Anti wet sumping valve with combined kill switch
Post by: muskrat on 05.10. 2010 05:55
G'day RR,
                 for your needs I recommend the Bunn and my setup. With it you have no pressure or vacuum in the cases to slow the pistons down.
Cheers
Title: Re: Anti wet sumping valve with combined kill switch
Post by: shabashow on 05.10. 2010 21:52
Rocket Racer - do you still have that article about extending the holes in the timed breather? It would be very interesting to find out the reasoning behind it.

My bike leaks out the back of the head, at the pushrod tunnel, occasionally the base of the cylinders, and I've noticed more oil, black in colour in the primary drive case than I put in, indicating engine oil is being pushed out, where it shouldn't. This is most prevalent if I get the speed up, and if I stick to below 50, there's hardly anything. Engine's ony got about 2500 miles on it since a rebuild. I'm coming to the conclusion that the little hole in the breather won't let much air out, and toyed with the idea of extending the hole. Sounds like a low cost experiment, which, if doesn't work, can't do much harm. I can always get a replacement, or fill the holes in.

John
Title: Re: Anti wet sumping valve with combined kill switch
Post by: Rocket Racer on 05.10. 2010 22:38
Rocket Racer - do you still have that article about extending the holes in the timed breather? It would be very interesting to find out the reasoning behind it.

John

John,
 yes I do, but its in a 4mb pdf. would you like me to mail it to you? I think I can do that as a PM. I'll try... Its quite an interesting article on a period racing A10 in NZ -plunger frame,small jnl,thin flange... 8000rpm!

Tim
Title: Re: Anti wet sumping valve with combined kill switch
Post by: Rocket Racer on 05.10. 2010 22:56
My bike leaks out the back of the head, at the pushrod tunnel, occasionally the base of the cylinders, and I've noticed more oil, black in colour in the primary drive case than I put in, indicating engine oil is being pushed out, where it shouldn't. This is most prevalent if I get the speed up, and if I stick to below 50, there's hardly anything. Engine's ony got about 2500 miles on it since a rebuild.
John
John,
 I'd be thinking about resealing the cyl head gasket and torquing it down a bit more. The 1st time I put an A10 head on (Jan this year) I couldnt find torque settings so used atlas/commando settings of 25lbs and it blew oil out the pushrod joint as soon as we started pushing it hard on the track. Cake Street suggest 28/30lbs and I've seen this forum talk about 40lbs!
Tim
Title: Re: Anti wet sumping valve with combined kill switch
Post by: Rocket Racer on 13.10. 2010 07:43
Quote
http://bunnbreather.bigblog.com.au/post.do?id=219490

A very good move Musky.
Rex, who designed the "improved" breather because he was too lazy to pull the barrel of his B40 and do the traditional fix to stop oil running up the stud and leaking from under the head nut washer, has now become a world authority on crank case breathing.
Seems that no one in the past actually did much in the way of research into crankcase breathing each designer just followed the theories of the previous generations ( make a vaccuum in there and it won't leak ). The idea of pulling fresh air into the cases then expelling the old air had just not been done.

Auckland uni ( I think ) has just made a research grant available so they should be some substantial improvements in the next few years.
Most of the ones fitted to members bikes have gone onto singles but a BSA twin is in effect a 2 cylinder single due to the 360 deg crank.
Apparently the historic racers have taken to them big time and get significantly more power & better acceleration from the breathing system.

I caught up with a good mate who happens to be doing the studies at the AUT that are referred to above. For a race engine, particularly one running methanol, running two breathers as Muskrat recommends; removing the timed breather but running that breather with a valved inlet only setup and running a second outlet on the topend with an outlet only will not only liberate power  *yeah* but also help remove the highly corrosive methanol vapour *problem*.
I'm hoping to remove my timed breather next week and trial a set of Rex's valves before the rig hits the track on the 23rd and 24th