The BSA A7-A10 Forum
Technical (Descriptive Topic Titles - Stay on Topic) => Lucas, Ignition, Charging, Electrical => Topic started by: Hubie on 03.04. 2010 09:41
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Hi all,
As electrics are my biggest weakness, I'll pose a question here. yesterday while riding to work my lights stopped working, or so I thought, they were just very very dim. As I returned to the bike at the end of my shift I had full power to the lights again, but only for a short time. I cannot find an earthing problem so far but am wondering if something is responding poorly to heat or it's that the battery is no good. The generator seems to be working fine and the batter will operate the horn or the lights only for a short time without the bike running before losing power. If I leave the bike again for a while and come back to it, same thing happens.
Any ideas?
Cheers,
Hubie.
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Gday Hubie,
Do the lights brighten with revs ? If yes gen OK battery sus. Often a flat battery when let sit for a few hours will give a bit more for a short while.
Cheers
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Thanks mate,
That's what seems to be happening. I'm on the hunt for a new 6V battery now!
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Hubie,
Does seem like a crook battery but why did your lights dim while you were riding?
Did this happen when your revs dropped when you stopped or did it happen at speed?
Trev.
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Hubie,
Do you own a multimeter / voltmeter ? ( check the voltage level of the battery with the engine off then again with it on, both with and without light turned on, tell us what voltage you see on the meter ).
Which regulator do you have ?, the original coil type or the far superior digital type ( Manortec for me ) ?.
Do not rush out and buy a battery, more info is needed to give you the help you need.
Do you have fuses ?.
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What's your ammeter telling you? I.ve found no matter how stuffed your battery is the dyno will still put something out.
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Further to Josh's comments, I agree, don't just install a new battery without knowing to a certainty that your regulator is in good repair and good adjustment. Very possibly, your regulator is not in good repair or adjustment and that is what took out your battery. Putting in a new battery, in that case, just means killing another battery. After going through three batteries I changed to a Manortec DVR2 and haven't destroyed another battery since.
Richard L.
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Thanks for the help chums,
I have tested the output of the regulator and seems to be working fine. The lights go brighter when the engine is revved but they lose any potency within about 10 seconds whether the engine is running or not. Give it a while and I get another ten seconds of life out of them. It seems the battery is not holding charge. I will check the output with the engine off and then running and report back.
Cheers,
Dave.
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Have done all the checking I can. The output of the generator through the reg is fine, right up to 11 volts when revved. Low at idle like any item of this type but above that and it's going very nicely. Battery recieves charge under revvs but does not hold it and the voltage with the lights on drops down to 0 in a hurry with the generator output still fine. I think the battery is the problem folks. It is on trickle charge at the moment to see how it goes but I am not hopeful it will help.
Cheers,
Dave.
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Hubie,
Suggest you take your old battery or plastic battery box with you to the battery shop when you go and get yourself a new age maintenance free battery, it does not need to be a motorcycle battery unless you have one of Steves "old man" *smile* electric starters, get the highest capacity battery you can, you'll be pleasantly suprised what new batteries can provide.
Good luck.
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Battery out of the circuit, no lights at all.
Still have power coming out of the regulator but no lights.
Dave.
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What regulator do you have ?, pop the cover off and have a look,
If it is an old coil and contact type it should work at revs without the battery in the circuit.
If it is a new solid state microchip type, it will need the battery power to get it started, you should be able to remove/disconnect the battery once its going at revs (to do this suggest just disconnecting the + wire), when you stop reving the generator stops producing power out and as the battery is no longer in the circuit the regulator will have no power and turn off, like this one:
(https://www.a7a10.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi113.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fn229%2FJoshuacox_2006%2F22JUN09075.jpg&hash=8af05b705bc1f3d1d2074677dcb87e67e461cc91)
(https://www.a7a10.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi113.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fn229%2FJoshuacox_2006%2F22JUN09084.jpg&hash=44c8989f94ee7c670600a4c23fccc817470d2e9e)
(https://www.a7a10.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi113.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fn229%2FJoshuacox_2006%2F22JUN09088.jpg&hash=107817e0323fd613a6604d7861855cb6a3d1bf0c)
No offence to the die hards, if it is an old coil type, replace it with a manortec or similar, second what manosound said.
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It is a much more modern type regulator but I can't see the brand on it. Has a computer chip styled heat sink on it. After a battery charge, lights seem to be okay. Will go for a ride tonight and see what happens...
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I charged the battery last night and rode to work and back. Had no dramas at all, so I will have to check the voltage at the battery to see if it is holding, holding steady at 6.4 volts last night and tonight.
Cheers,
Dave
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G'day Dave,
is most of your riding at night (shift worker) ? If so and most of the time your head light, tail light and break light are on the genny may be struggling to keep up. Starting with a fully charged battery, after 1 trip it's say 5% down, after 20 trips it's flat.
It may be worth converting to 12 volt with a dvr2 reg.
Cheers
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Hi Muskrat,
I am on night shift at the moment but I also do morning and afternoon shift. I have a feeling that the battery may have been flattened by the stop lamp staying on. I've noticed a couple of times the stop lamp staying on after I have lifted my foot off the lever. Give the lever a little nudge and the lamp goes out again. Perhaps I forgot to do this on one occaision and flattened the battery this way.
Cheers,
Hubie.
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Hmmmm,
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Checked the volatages today. Once the revs are up enough and the reg kicks in, voltage on the battery is 7.4 volts and will go up or down with revs, switch lights on and I still have at least 6.5 volts. I think I may have flatenned the battery with my stop lamp issue.
Cheers,
Dave.
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I did some more testing today and I now think the generator is the problem. It will run fine with normal voltage output and after a short time will cut out, giving nothing more than one or 1.5 volts. I am not sure what the cause of this is or how to test it. As previously stated, electrics are my weakness.
Cheers,
Hubie.
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G'day again Hubie,
I'm no wiz on electrics either. I think that if you have a battery that is down a bit the reg tells the gen to work and charge the battery. Once it's full the reg tells the gen to take a break and there is little or no output.
Try the same test with the lights on. Remember the motor needs to be reving at about 1500 for the gen to work ( about double idle speed). The gen should put out enough to keep up with the lights.
Cheers
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Hi again Muskrat,
I did just that, no dice with lights at all. Gen will only come on intermittently even at revs.
Cheers,
Dave.
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Hubie,
Go trawling through previous posts and you will find plenty of info to test your generator.
Generators usually work or don't work, possibly your regulator is failing intermittently.
If you can't find the test procedures, I or someone else will surely re post them.
Trev.
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More testing today. Bike charged up again for short while, disconnected the regulator for a short time and then reconnected it, charged again for a short time. Maybe the reg has had it?
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Hubie,
First things first.
Test generator then go for regulator.
Trev.
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Sticky brushes.
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Just a question (haven't had the chance to get the gen out owing to a death in the family),
Will a 12v reg work with my setup, or a reg/rectifier?
Thanks,
Dave
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G'day Dave,
not 100% sure but I don't think so. A reg/rec is for an alternator type system where the rec converts AC to DC. Generator systems use a reg only.
Cheers
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They've been making 12v reggys for 30 years for 6volt gennys. I believe the Podronics are the best. You just change your brush and field wire configuration.
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The generator is putting out 1.2 to 1.7 volts. According to the test data, this means there is a fault in the armature winding......
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Hubie,
That 1.2 volts, is that whilst reving the engine or at idle ?.
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Hubie,
It seems like a crook armature to me, check brushes are OK though.
Measure field resistance between "F" terminal and earth. Should be around 3 ohms.
The armature is not so easy to test.
Some use a "growler". I "drop test" them. Both methods need the equipment to do the test.
Trev.
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Which kind of generator is it? Will need to order a new armature and brushes for it. Doesn't look like it will be cheap either! I am considering a 12v conversion too, apparently you just have to change the wiring setup and have the proper regulator and then it's just globes. I have the vreg II which you can just cut the green wire to change it to 12 volt. And a battery of course!
Cheers,
Dave
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I just rebuilt my dynamo with one of these http://www.hawkerelectrical.co.uk/items/17-1_13-lucas-e3l-ac-dynamo-rebuild-kit.htm All fitted right and works a treat. I use a similar reg a dvr2 for 12 volt.
cheers.
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Dave,
Check out Empire Spares in the UK for an armature.
They have them listed at something like A$58.00.
All of their parts are a steal!
Trev.
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Thanks Trev,
I'll take a look at it. I have been recommended by a large number of people here to go to COD rewinds in Chiltern, Vic, I have it out now which was very easy (If only My Royal Enfield twin was as easy to pull things apart!). All of my classic bike contacts reccomend him.
Time for a descision.
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Have you checked the brushes yet?
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Hi all,
The problem has been diagnosed as a failed armature. I have ordered one through empire spares so thanks to all for the help and suggestion. Have also ordered a 24 tooth engine sprocket too.
Cheers,
Hubie
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Hubie,
If you fit a 24 tooth engine sprocket and you have the standard 19 tooth gearbox and 42 tooth rear sprocket, you will seriously over gear your bike with a final ratio of 3.76:1 compared to the standard 4.53:1.
Trev.
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With those sprockets you will get 60 mph at about 3000 rpm, so could do 140 mph if the motor will pull it !!!
Cheers
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Hi guys,
It will be an interesting experiment. I'm led to believe the RGS had a 24 tooth engine sprocket but I am not sure of the size on the box or the rear wheel.
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Hubie,
The RGS has 23 engine, 43 clutch, 19 gearbox and 46 rear which gives the same overall ratio as other A10s.
I don't know that the RGS ever used a 24 sprocket but a 22 was used, probably to help starting off with the close ratio box.
Trev.
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I had a 21 tooth sprocket on my RE bullet up from a 17 on the gearbox and it worked a treat. I'll have to see how it goes. Sounds like I might have to lengthen the primary chain too.
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You will definitely have to lengthen the primary chain.
Trev.
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Chain has been lengthened, now just waiting for the dynamo to come back from the sparky. Can't wait to get her back on the road!
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Hi all,
I've re installed the generator and polarized it. Can only get .2 volts out of it. Getting frustrated. Hooked up the test light as described in another post and no light at all (and yes, I've tested the light!).
Cheers,
Hubie.
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Just walk away and go back to it later! That's how lots of my gennys start working.Have you motored it to see which way the field wires are connected? The sparkie might have wired them for running in the opposite direction.
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Hubie,
As Wilko said, it may be connected incorrectly internally.
Take it out and motor it.
If you don't know , connect D & F together and connect hot wire to them with earth to body.
The generator should run in the driven rotation, in your case anti-clock or left hand if you will, viewed from the drive end.
If this is the problem, just swap the field wires around and test again.
Trev.
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Have swapped the wires around and back again with no difference in the result. Getting .2 to .24 volts at idle. Might have to take it back where it came from. Brushes are rather worn but still making contact so I'm not sure where to go from here.
Out on the road the 24 tooth engine sprocket seems fine, struggles a bit at 60mph which it did before the change. Might have to get it looked at.
Cheers,
Dave.
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Dave,
Have you gone through the test procedures, i.e. disconnecting generator and bridging D & F and seeing what you get?
The first thing is to ensure that it motors in the correct direction with the correct polarity.
Did you flash the field after you swapped the connections?
If the generator is still in the bike, you have to flash the field if you change the field connections.
Regarding the 24 tooth sprocket, you are over geared to buggery.
I am one of those strange blokes who believes that the designers of the bike knew what they were doing regarding gearing.
Trev.
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Okay,
I removed the timing cover and disconnected the dynamo chain tonight and connected the f and d terminals, put some voltage across it and earthed the body. The dynamo runs, so now where do I go????
Cheers,
Hubie.
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a friend had this trouble, turned out was polarised wrong way by repairer.
might help the dynamo experts here ( not me ) if you could say which way it ran - clockwise or anti.
Reading your post again I can't see anywhere that you have the bike wired positive earth as it probably should be, sorry if this is an obvious point but pays sometimes to get all the boxes ticked before giving advise ( boxes ticked - not bad vernacular for n old F*** eh )
All the best _ Bill
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I take it this gen is off the bike in your profile photo Hubie, if that is the case then it is most likely positive earth. That being the case you need to connect the battery negative to the wire bridging the F and D terminals of the gen and then connect the positive of the battery to the body of the gen. This should make the gen spin in the correct direction, anti clockwise looking at the drive end. If not reverse the wires that are inside the gen and go to the F and D terminals and try again. Once you have got the gen to spin the correct way then either put the chain back on and check it for output again or spin it the correct way with a electric drill and check it.
Make sure your bike is positive earth before trying this, trace the wire from the positive terminal of your battery to make sure it goes to the frame (earth).
If by any chance your bike has been wired with a negative earth then you need to do exactly the opposite of what I have said.
Hope this makes sense.
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It's a positive earth machine for sure. Nice and original!
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So does it spin in the right direction then?
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Have re flashed the dyno as per Brian's description and I get 0.2 to 0.4 volts coming out of it.
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Dave, did you take the chain off to see the dyno motor? This is important as you can flash it till the cows come home but if it doesn't motor it wont charge.
cheers
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Okay,
I removed the timing cover and disconnected the dynamo chain tonight and connected the f and d terminals, put some voltage across it and earthed the body. The dynamo runs, so now where do I go?
Cheers,
Hubie.
I assume he did so, muskrat.
Still Dave doesn't want to tell us which way 'round it ran. *smile*
Maybe the dynamo guy got the field coil connections wrong, who knows.
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Sorry Dave, I didn't read back far enough. You got me baffled. I recently had electrical problems. The brush plate broke and melted the armature. Rebuilt dynamo and then cooked 2 batteries.Turned out it cooked the DVR2 as well.
Not much fun is it?
Cheers
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I did take the chain off. I assume that the dyno would not have near enough power in it to turn the motor over!
I am wondering since the dyno ran that the brushes may be stuffed...
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it needs the brushes to motor Dave, so they must be OK, you still need to let us know in which direction it rotated when you had it motoring?
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Frustrating! To avoid forking out dosh for a reco you must be systematic with these tests.A motoring dyno is not necessarily the only test of course but it's a good sign. You might have to have a growler test if it refuses to comply.
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Its not looking good Hubie but just a quick run through to be sure.
1. You have confirmed the bike is positive earth.
2. You connected the positive terminal of a battery to the body of the gen and the negative terminal to the wire bridging the F and D terminals on the gen and it spun in the correct direction, anti clockwise looking at the drive end.
3. You connected a voltmeter to the gen, the positive lead (red) to the body and the negative lead to the wire bridging the F and D terminals and spun the gen in the correct direction with a drill or you put the chain on and started the bike and gave it a rev and it did not show any output. You had your voltmeter set on DC volts.
The fact that it motored would indicate that although the brushes are worn they are making contact with the commutater, it appears you have a faulty gen. It looks like you will need to get it profesionally tested and repaired. You can buy rebuild kits for these from the UK which gives you a new armature, field winding, brushes and bearings. I have just ordered one myself and they cost just under $200 landed here in Aus. You can of course get them rewound. It comes down to how confident you are at working on them as to wether you want to have a go at repairing it yourself or send it somewhere to get done.
Remember, a politician once told us "life wasnt meant to be easy"
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Thanks Brian,
Have done all that and I thought I had just had the thing rebuilt. I am going down to Seaford tomorrow and a mate there is going to check it out for me. Will see how it goes. On the sprocket front, my speedo was somewhat innacurate, does 60mph quite easily and is not revving hard at all.
Cheers,
Dave.
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Okay,
the dynamo is off the bike, it runs as a motor when power is put to it, and it does not matter which way you connect it it still runs in the same direction (which is the correct direction according to the arrow on the dyno - and is clockwise from the drive side). When I put a power source to it and run it (slowly) it produces a reading (5 volts) across the brush terminals. When I use a drill to run the dyno (again in the correct direction) I get .2 volts tops.
If I had hair, it would have well and truly have been pulled out by now!
Cheers,
Dave.
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If the arrow on the gen when looking at it from the drive end points in a clockwise direction then that gen does not come off a A10, but that doesnt matter as they can be used in either direction.
Hubie I am sure the problem here is all to do with the way it is hooked up.
Firstly use a texta to put a arrow on the body pointing in a anti-clockwise direction so you know where your at. Make sure it is wired the same as this picture. Then connect your battery to it with the positive on the body and the neg on the wire bridging D and F. If it motors in the correct (anti-clockwise) direction then test if for output, the pos of your voltmeter to the body and the neg to the wire bridging the D and F terminals. If it does not motor in the correct direction then swap the brush wires over and try it again. You have to get it to motor in the correct direction (anti-clockwise) with the pos being the earth. Once you get it to do this I am fairly sure it will work.
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Dave,
It MUST rotate in the driven direction or it will not generate!
If you swap your field wires it MUST reverse!
It does not matter what polarity you apply to test, it will always rotate in the direction it is connected for.
If your arrow shows clockwise, and it is at the drive end of the body, you have the wrong body, which doesn't matter.
What is the number stamped on the body? This identifies what the generator belongs to.
It sounds like all you have to do is reverse the field connections and all will be well as you have proved the generator will generate when you drive it in the wrong direction.
Trev.
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Gee Brian,
Great minds think alike. You beat me by four minutes!
Trev.
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Trev, this is one of those times I wish Hubie lived close by, I am sure his problem is just a matter of sorting out the wiring. I suggested he stick with the correct earth (positive) so the polarity is right when he puts it back on the bike.
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Hi guys,
The arrow is on the timing end of the dyno and points in the anti clockwise direction which is the direction of engine rotation from that side. From the primary drive side, it rotates clockwise. I will double check the wiring though to see how it is hooked up.
Okay the brush next to the D terminal looks right, the brush on the F terminal side goes to the body of the generator with another green wire that goes into the body under the brush plate. There is also a green and yellow wire that is connected to the F terminal and goes back under the brush plate. Is this right?
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Hi Trev,
The gen when power is put to it always rotates in the correct direction. When it is driven in either direction it generates no appreciable output.
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when i mean the drive end of the dyno, I mean the end where the chain and sprocket goes onto. the arrow here faces anti clockwise which is the same direction of rotation of the motor. I quadruple checked it!
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Just a thought too. If it has not been flashed, or if there is no residual magnetism left in the field coil, could it run as a motor but not generate any output when run off a drill or the bike?
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when i mean the drive end of the dyno, I mean the end where the chain and sprocket goes onto. the arrow here faces anti clockwise which is the same direction of rotation of the motor. I quadruple checked it!
When you are looking at the timing side of the engine, the crankshaft will rotate in clockwise direction, while the large dynamo sprocket will spin in the opposite direction (CCW), as it is attached to the idler pinion. So the dynamo will also spin CCW, driven by a chain from there. If your crank was spinning in the same direction, you would find yourself travelling backwards. *smile*
However, if you are looking at it, standing in front of the timing side, and it motors CCW, then it is okay.
Just a thought too. If it has not been flashed, or if there is no residual magnetism left in the field coil, could it run as a motor but not generate any output when run off a drill or the bike?
Having it motor requires having current through the field coil which will magnetize it, with the same result (residual magnetism) as per flashing it.
This is weird. Are you absolutely sure the bike is wired pos. earth? Sorry if this is too obvious, just to make sure.
Cheers, Markus
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I could not be more sure that it is positive earth and that it is spinning in the correct direction when motored. Very confusing.
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Hmm, then the field coil connections must be the right way 'round. Very strange indeed.
There's only one more possible fault I could think of, which is a bad joint between the dynamo housing (painted maybe?) and earth (crankcases).
Where did you connect the earth lead of your multimeter (or the test bulb)? Directly to the dynamo body or somewhere else on the frame?
If we can exclude this, then I'm at the my wits' end (at the moment at least).
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I connected the earth terminal to both the body of the dyno and then on the side stand mount on the frame. Both times it motored. I too am at my wits end! I may have to bite the bullet and send it to COD rewinds.
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Didn't you have it refurbished recently? I would contact whoever did this first and have him fix it.
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Just because a dynamo will motor that does not mean that it will generate. Motoring is not a reliable indicator of a dynamos serviceability status. A dynamo will often motor even if one or two armature segments are U/S, and the reason for this is inertia. Once the dynamo is motoring then the motor action is maintained due to inertia generated by the armature as it spins. This can give a false impression that everything is O.K. Motoring a dynamo can indeed be used as a diagnostic aid, but it is far from being a reliable method of serviceability assessment. Really all motoring a dynamo can prove is that it motors.
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Yep, I think we have excluded all other possible causes, looks like the dynamo is faulty.
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Going back about 4 pages and half a lifetime, what did the man actually do to the dynamo Hubie?
With the brushes - as you confirm - wired one to D, the other to E (they absolutely have to be that way), and one field coil connection from the same E (per Brian's pic) and the other to the F terminal, then it's wired right on the inside. If the polarity is indeed set correct, and proven if it motors the right way when driven off a battery with the neg to the F and D bridge and body/frame/earth return to Batt +, then the thing's hooked up correctly. There's also residual magnetism in there, and the brushes are doing their job.
3 additional thoughts.
Can't remember what regulator you're running. If you have an electronic JG unit that requires the field to be wired F to D because the regulation is done on the live side not the earth, then it won't work. But nor should it motor hooked up as described, as you'd have to bridge F to the body/earth, connect the body/earth to Batt +, and D to Batt live. So that's unlikely.
On A101960's motoring and inertia point you might want to run a simple test on the armature, as it does appear it may be suspect. Suggest you measure the resistance across every commutator segment to every other one. There should be a similar, low, resistance across each and every pair. If there are pairs where the resistance is very high or infinite even, then there are winding faults on the armature and further investigation is needed. But this would be BAD if you just spent money having the thing looked at.
And lastly, if all else fails, are you sure the field coil and armature are compatible? If the man changed either, did he put in 'standard-wound' equivalents to the Lucas originals? If he put in a '12v' field coil (there are lots of them about) it will take a lot of revs to make the standard armature generate anything much you'd notice although it may/would still motor. An original field coil should show about 2.7 to 3 ohms across its ends (and no reading from either end to earth); a '12v' one designed to work in conjunction with a finer-wound modern replacement armature should show about 11 ohms. (Another highly unlikely scenario, but we seem to be moving into the realms of head-scratching from the normal comfort zone where things do what they are meant to do.)
Hope you get to the bottom of it . . .
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G'day all,
been watching this with interest. Something strange happening in the dynamo.
Dave, it looks like a trip to the auto sparky. Down here it's getting hard to find a sparky that is really up on dynamo's.
Only 1 out of 3 in my local area will touch them and he's retired, but luckily he has a Goldie,RGS in bits,Thunderduck and a Vauxhaul 6. He did mine for a slab.(beer)
Cheers
PS just saw groily's post. I know the HD gennie is different to the Lucas. Maybe the sparky wired it like one of them. Just another straw.
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I'm dropping the dyno off in seaford this morning to see if we can sort it out. I only have a digital multimeter and I am getting fluctuating readings on the field coil resistance so maybe the field coil is stuffed.
Will keep all posted.
Dave.
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Dave,
All I can say at this point is I wish I had that **##* generator on my bench.
I would soon show it who's boss!
Trev.
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You never know mate, if my friends down in seaford can't fix it I might even send it up to you!
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I might even send it up to you!
Interesting quote for us Poms, which way is up down under *smiley4*
Flame suit on *fight* bags packed *wave*
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Well, me mum always said North had to be up . . . and so South was down. But Poms always used to go 'up' to London even when they were going down . . . so I dunno! No-one apparently ever went left or right though - which is maybe why routes are always so much worse in some countries going across . . . weird but true.
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I can't go right ! Next stop NZ !
Cheers
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And I can't go up, either - without water wings and a passport . . .
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Dyno is apparently ready to go. I was told that the brushes were very worn and had a diagonal chanel across them causing them to come into contact with more than one commutator segment at a time. Will be interesting to see how it goes when I get the chance to go pick it up. Shall keep all posted.
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I think we're near the end. I have put the dyno back on the bike, pumping out very healthy voltage. I have the vreg II on the bike and when revved, it pumps out good voltage also. Thing is, i have no lights and the ammeter doesn't move even though there is power to it after checking with the multimeter. Do I have a stuffed battery?
It was under 6 volts, about 4.8. At this voltage the dyno only puts out 1.2 volts at revs. I am thinking along the lines of battery as I have the electronic type reg and from reading back through these posts it seems as though it needs decent voltage from the battery to start running. Any thoughts?
Dave.
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Not to worry chums,
I have begun the 12 volt conversion, just need globes. Put a 12v battery on with a globe in the stop lamp, all works fine, the ammeter runs so that means that the reg was not getting enough power to tell the dyno to charge.
Cheers
Dave.
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It seems to be a problem with some of the electronic regulators that they need a charged battery to allow them to start working.
It's not an issue with the DVR2 as I have found.
Trev.
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G'day Trev,
All is working fine now, have a 12 volt flasher unit in the bike as well now as I have indicators. I can tell the charging system is working fine as the ammeter moves depending on revs and the indicators flash faster above idle so I know the volts are going in there. I just need a 12 volt headlamp globe which is the BPF style, although a mate has stacks of sealed beams at his place so I can convert that part of it for nothing. BPF globes are not cheap!!
Cheers,
Dave.
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Still sorting my system out. Did two night rides of about 6 miles and lights went right down. I have a v reg iia on the bike and have read that it needs at least a 5 amp hour battery to work properly and prevent overcharging and I have a 4 amp hour battery in it. My needle on the ammeter sits in the negative unless the revs are going well above idle. I am wondering if the amp hour figure will make a difference or is it that my dynamo is simply not spinning fast enough. If so, is there a way I can speed it up? Smaller sprocket on the engine side perhaps?
If it is all too much trouble, I am going to go back to 6 volt. Will just need to replace the reg and globes and fit a 6 volt battery. I would also be grateful if someone can measure their 6 volt battery and post it so I can find a suitable 6 or 12 volt replacement.
Cheers
Hubie.
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G'day Hubie,
sounds like there is still something wrong with your system, and I'm leaning towards your dynamo. Revs do need to be up a bit for it to charge, say about 30mph in top. I have a vreg2 on the '51 A7 and just fitted a new amp meter, it shows +4 with no lights and +2 with everything on. I have also fitted a belt drive that ups the speed by 5% from John at Lytedrive down there. I have an SRM kit on the cafe that ups it by 10% and starts charging just above idle ( just a light, no meter).
The vreg can be used for 6 volt as well. I think you just cut the looped wire, or is it join the cut wire. But thinking of that, is yours set for 6 or 12 volt ?? I will dig out my instructions for the vreg in the morning.
Cheers
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The system is set up for 12 volt. Dynamo was rebuilt and works very well. Maybe there is something wrong with the reg. It is a vregII. Still not sure what is going on.
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Can I suggest you take the battery of the bike and charge it up with a charger, then test it with a meter and see if it holds it's charge.
I have spent the last three weeks of and on trying to sort out a brand new battery, suspected the charger, suspected the acid, suspected a short/leak on the bike, I changed all these and came to the conclusion that the brand new (Chinese) battery is duff.
The battery would charge up but holding a meter on it would show a slow reduction of voltage, about .1 of a volt a minute ( this without load)
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G'day Hubie,
I can't find my notes on the vreg, but it's the little green wire loop that should be cut to go 12 volt. Here is the vreg page, have a look and re-check all yours. http://www.nanocontrols.co.uk/auto/v-reg2.htm
Bill, a friend once told me a charged battery will loose about 1% a day = 0.12 volts. 0.1 per minute is way too much. New parts don't mean much anymore.
Cheers
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I am going to source a new reg just to see if it is the reg that is suspect. I know that the dynamo is fine but on reading the notes on the vreg 2 it does say that it needs a good 5 amp hour battery to work properly and the one I have in it is 4. If all else fails, I will get a new 6 volt batter and reg and put all the 6 volt globes back in.
I have also re fitted the standard 21 tooth engine sprocket to see if that helps. My other solution was to try and find a smaller size sprocket for the dynamo chain (the engine one of course). The standard is 27 teeth. Does anyone know where I might find a smaller one?
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Dave,
The standard set-up is fine, it should work well as it did from 1949!
A smaller engine sprocket will run your dynamo slower!
You should find with the 21 tooth engine sprocket that your bike will pull away from 20 MPH in top and keep accelerating into the 80s or 90s. Don't worry about the revs, they won't hurt your engine.
Trev.
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Thanks Trev,
The rev's wont hurt but it sure does vibrate!
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Probably needs balancing!
Trev.
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G'day again Hubie,
If you do a bit of night riding I would stick with 12 volt. I have never heard of different size sprockets for the dynamo and as Trev said the std setup is fine. I have a Vreg on the "51 and a DVR2 on the cafe and can't fault either.
Cheers
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I have a feeling the generator before it died might have overloaded the reg or damaged it in some way. I will be testing to find out. I will have decent 6 volt lighting considering i have low wattage but halogen headlight beam. It is brighter than the 12 volt globe that i have in it right now.
Cheers
Hubie.
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Yep, when my dynamo spat the dummy it took the reg with it. I rebuilt the dynamo and seeing charge thought all was good. But what happened was the reg overcharged and cooked batteries.
Cheers
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Dave,
I have the feeling that you and electrics don't mix well.
Is your regulator set for 6 or 12 volts?
If your 6v light is fine and 12v not, it seems as though you are regulating to 6v.
What does your multi-meter show?
Trev.
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Hubie,
what wattage 12volt headlamp bulb are you using? are you using the sealed beam unit mentioned??
A 60/55 watt bulb is too much for the poor dynamo and it will fail again given time (not long in my experience)
The symptoms you describe are fairly typical of a 6-12 conversion using an undersize battery
the bigger battery will hold the voltage up longer when the dynamo is not balancing the load!
If the voltage dropps too much the reg may see this as a fault and shut itself down (not privvy to the internals of the vreg)
Get a decent sized battery 8AH upwards, you can fit up to a 14AH battery by flattening down the tabs on the bottom of the battery case!
You can get 40watt H4 bulbs and a H4 reflector fairly easily or a 12 volt prefocus bulb 35/35w to fit the old reflector unit, or even a halogen bulb to fit the prefocus unit.
Lastly *ex* *ex*
A toothed belt drive setup that increases the dynamo speed 10% is available from SRM, not cheap but a very nice piece of kit!!
I am not a fan of the vee belt kits as the belt needs to be fairly tight and any oil escaping from the inner case will also make it slip *sad2* *sad2* *sad2*
Regards
John O R
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John,
With 12v conversion, 80watts output is achievable.
At least with my rewind it is.
Trev.
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Hi Trev,
80 watt is peak output and not continuous *ex*,
As far as I am aware the limiting factor with the dynamo is the metal losses and only one field coil!
the "12" volt armatures and field coils have more turns of lighter gauge windings to give an improved output at lower revs
I have repaired several converted dynamo equipped machines that had 60/55 bulbs fitted,
If 80 watt continuous could be extracted from a lucas dynamo there would be no market for Alton alternators!!!
If you have a method of extracting 80w continuous please tell us how? and we will all go out dazzling rabbits!! LOL!!
Cheers
John
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John,
I admit that I have not road tested my dyno. I loaded it on the bench for quite a while and had no over heating.
I reckon a safe load would be 60/55w headlight plus other lighting.
I wound the armature with 0.7 mm conductors instead of 0.8mm. Originally it was .032"
I only use my bikes for club runs now and very rarely have the need for lights other than brake lamp.
Maybe one day I will fit the 12v dyno or try and find a guinea pig locally!
Trev.
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G'day all,
To clear the air, what I had done was to change to 12 volt globes (35 watt for the headlamp) and cut the green wire on the vreg II to change it to 12 volt and fitted a 12 volt battery. No change was made to the dyno.
What I have now done is to put in a new 6v battery (13 amp hour), put all the 6v globes back in (25 watt halogen globe in the headlamp) and reconnect the reg wire to switch back to 6 volt. If it don't work, then the dyno previously dying must have stuffed the reg and I will replace it.
Will report back with result soon.
Cheers,
Dave.
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New battery in and clobes changed, ammeter showing nearly -8 amps with headlamps on, revving reduces it but not to zero. New regulator purchased.
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Dave,
What is the voltage you are getting across your battery, with and without the lights on?
With the engine running, of course.
Trev.
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Hi Trev,
Battery sitting static is on about 6.7 volts, motor running once the reg has kicked in is about the same. Turn on lights and it is on 6.6.
Cheers,
Dave
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Seems a little low, Dave.
Trev.
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Hi Trev,
It's a new battery, so I will give it some charge tonight, I just chucked it in the bike once I put the acid in it to see how it went, the lights are good and strong but boy does the ammeter needle tip to the negative!!! I have the 21 tooth sprocket back on the bike and the needle moves fine but the amps are way down with the headlamp on. As I've mentioned, i have a new mechanical reg on the way (got it at a very good price) and will see how it goes. I am thinking that the reg is not working properly.
Cheers,
Dave.
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Dave,
With the headlight on your ammeter normally would only be just showing a charge as the generator is supplying the headlight.
What wattage headlight are you running? Should be 30/24W on a six volt system.
Trev.
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I have just installed a new MCR2 regulator and there is a massive difference in the charging. Only a small amount of revs are needed to bring the ammeter to zero or above with all lights on. Should I be reading in the negative at idle with the lights on?
Either way it is a matter of adjustment as the reg was definately the problem.
Almost there.....
Cheers,
Dave
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Good to see you finally got the better of it
Cheers
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At idle the cut-out is probably open so the dynamo is not connected to the battery - thus the ammeter will show the full load of the lights as a discharge. That's fine and normal.
If your tickover speed is slightly higher than cut out speed (the battery still being connected to the dynamo across 'D' and 'A' on the MCR2), then there will also be a discharge because at these modest engine rpm the dynamo doesn't produce enough to balance the load.
If your ammeter shows zero or better at lowish revs while riding along with all loads on- say 35mph in top depending on gearing - you're sorted. Hope so - you deserve it after all the hassle!
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On the way home tonight with full load at 50mph ammeter was at about plus 2 so I have turned the reg screw in a bit so that I will be in the plus at about 35mph. Very happy with a reg I can adjust and thanks to all.
Cheers,
Dave
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Sounds good Hubie - but be careful not to set it too high! It's tempting . . .
The battery's state of charge will in considerable measure determine the ammeter reading, as the regulator will want to get the system voltage up to the prescribed level and hold it there. If it's less than fully charged, the dynamo will be briefly asked to work hard to get the battery up to spec. Ideally, you only want a small steady charge with a fully charged battery regardless of whether the lights are on or not, when rolling along. What you don't want to do is overfeed the dynamo's field coil to obtain a larger than needed output, as that's how armatures get fried. Changing the regulator setting changes the amount of time the contacts are open, and therefore the amount of time the armature's output - D - is being fed directly back into the field coil - F (as well as to the ammeter/battery etc of course). All the regulator does is interrupt the connection between the dynamo's output (D) and the field input (F). At rest the two are connected, in fact they are always connected except when the regulator is in regulating mode with the contacts trembling. The shorter the time the points are open as opposed to closed, the more output from D is fed into F and vice versa. While the field coil is quite tough, the armature is more vulnerable.
You've got a safe 60Watts continous power at 6v, your electrical loads with tail, head and speedo are going to require a lot of that (I forget what bulbs you've got but let's say that's about 42watts). 42 Watts at 6 volts requires the dynamo to deliver 7 amps; the battery will also need its usual trickle to keep things in shape, so that's 8-ish amps say, compared to a 10 amp maximum load (which is fine). If you find that with a fully charged battery, all loads on and at road-going speeds, you're getting a charge of more than an amp or two shown on the ammeter, then I'd back the reg off a bit to calm the dynamo down. Some Haynes manuals, and also the Lucas Service sheets, contain quite detailed guidance on this stuff. Correct setting is critical to the management of the field. Poor management of the field is the primary reason why dynamos have got such a lousy reputation over the years - and it's usually not the dynamo's fault. It chucks out according to what's chucked in. Too little and the lights start to fade and the battery isn't maintained; too much, and the armature is overworked and the battery may also be overcharged, with consequent water-loss and shortened life.
You'll always get a temporary surge in charging after you've been sitting at a traffic light on tickover for a few minutes or something with the lights all on, that's normal as the battery gets a necessary boost to compensate for the drain while you were sitting there, but the boost should be short term.
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Thanks Groily,
My only concern is that when I have all the lights on, for the meter to show a positive charge, say about 1-2 amps (battery fully charged) the bike needs to be running at about 50mph. Without lights on and the meter is right up at 6-8 amps. I have the service sheet downloaded for the mcr2 reg so I need to learn how to adjust it properly, but I don't think I should be seeing a negative reading with the lights all on at low speeds.
To add to this, I rode to work in the dark this morning (just under 6 miles) and my battery was 6.92 volts before leaving and 6.88 after arriving.
Cheers,
Dave
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I am worrying a bit for you here Hubie. Needlessly I hope, but not sure.
If you're showing a 6 to 8 amp charge with a fully charged battery under no load - ie lights off - that's truly way too high. To trickle charge a good, charged, battery, you should be seeing an amp or so under those circs.
But on reasonable gearing, you should also see the ammeter around zero at about 35mph or so, which is what you're aiming at.
When the regulator is regulating, engine rpm become largely irrelevant - you shouldn't see the charge increase with revs once the regulator has kicked in, usually around the 1800 rpm mark- that's what the regulator is there to manage. The dynamo runs unregulated from the point just above tick-over at which the cut-in connects armature and battery (D and A) and then is regulated (by switching the direct D to F connection on and off to control the input to the field from the D side) from the point at which the dynamo would otherwise try to increase the system voltage above the correct level. From the point it starts regulating, the charge shown on the ammeter should not increase with revs as the battery doesn't need it.
Are you sure the main light switch and dipswitch are working right? And the brake light's not stuck on? If both headlamp filaments were coming on at the same time, the dynamo would be asked to produce more than it ought to to get to 0 on the ammeter, in fact you'd have big trouble balancing the full electrical load at low rpm because the load would exceed the rated capacity of the generator; then, if you played with the regulator in search of extra, it would overcharge the battery with all loads off as the field would be being overfed. Which would be bad for the armature.
I dunno quite what's going on there, but something isn't quite right yet by the sound of it. I'd try to set it to balance on the ammeter at about 35 in top (ie needle on 0) unless you're on way-out gearing, when I'd say go for 40. You probably need to get a meter on the A line from the regulator with the engine running at enough revs for the regulator points to be trembling, see what it says and compare to the service sheets. But you definitely don't want the charge right up at the positive end of the scale. Because however much it tells you 'boy, does this thing charge well' it will probably harm the armature and wreck the battery over time.
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Hubie,
You need to set the regulator with a voltmeter, not by looking at the ammeter.
Typically, when owners do what you are doing, i.e. expect the ammeter to be always being well into positive territory, generators get burnt out!!! And batteries get fried!!
You haven't told us what wattage headlight you are running, if too high this will affect your charging rate.
When my bike is running and the battery is topped up, the ammeter sits on 0 and only occasionally flicks briefly to positive.
Trev.
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Thanks Trev,
I have wound the adjusting screw back out, and will check the headlamp wattage. I have the instructions for the reg and will have to learn how to properly set it up. What does your ammeter show when your lights are on full? What are the voltage readings I should be expecting?
Cheers,
Dave.
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Dave,
I set the voltage with no load, i.e. battery isolated and all lights off, to 7.3V.
I find when I test on the bench that with a battery connected the voltage drops a little and when I add a headlight the voltage drops to around 6.7V. That is with around 2800 generator revs.
The book says to set the open circuit voltage higher, depending on ambient temperature but I find my method works and I don't get dried out batteries.
Keep trying Mate, you'll get there and will become the local expert!
Trev.
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I'm getting there Trev,
It is easier to try setting these regs up with two people though. I have reset it to the best of my ability with two hands. My globe by the way is a 35/35w halogen lamp. When i run the motor with the lights on, the ammeter dips right into the negative. Is it supposed to do this?
Cheers,
Dave.
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Dave,
Your headlight will draw approx. 6 amps, tail 1 amp and speedo not much.
You can see that with this load your ammeter, which should be an 8 amp type, will almost full scale deflect in the negative direction until your generator cuts in and starts to supply the load. As the engine speed increases, the generator output increases until the generator takes the full load at which point the ammeter shows 0.
If the battery requires current, the ammeter will move into positive territory if the engine speed is high enough.
If your battery is fully charged and your output voltage is correct, the battery will not demand much from the generator so will not show much movement on the ammeter.
I would be happy if the measured voltage across the battery, with the lights on and the engine running at a speed high enough to balance the load, was around the 6.8 - 7 volt mark.
Trev.
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Thanks a bunch Trev,
I think that's where I'm at now.
Cheers,
Dave.
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By the way, Dave,
I love those big Enfield twins!
a Connie or Interceptor would look good in my shed. If only there was room!
Trev.
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This is mine, a '56 super meteor (the best of the twins) after I rebuilt the motor.
http://i360.photobucket.com/albums/oo50/aussieenfields/IMG_0045.jpg
Cheers,
Dave.
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What can I say?
Magnificent at least!
Trev.
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Thought my Connie cafe-racer was quite smart Hubie till I saw that! Very Nice One. And with an alternator of course. . . so none of these recent hassles! Vastly under-rated bikes, the big RE twins, but coming into their own a bit nowadays, deservedly.
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Thanks boys,
She is a magnificent bike, I rewired it this past summer too. They came out with 6 volt alternators but it had no alternator when i bought it. I bought a special adapter plate and it runs a rotor and stator from an Interceptor, a simple solid state reg/rectifier and battery. Unlike the old nickname they got too, mine is oil tight so not a 'royal oilfield'!
I have footage of this bike, my old bullet (I also built it, but was written off when i was t-boned last november) and a small video of the flash on youtube. Type in hubie075 in the search field and you'll find all my videos.
Cheers,
Dave.
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Thanks for the link Dave. Much the same story except I'm running at 12v with the larger Podtronics box and Mk3 Norton Boyer ignition. Not much in the way of oil leaks either after a couple of (very!) false starts - the Enfield top end really is pushing it for separate barrels and heads (and the standard breathing was a bit of a sick joke). Love the huge torque, but for getting anywhere no worries (even at night if you get that voltage sorted) it's still hard hard to beat the A. Like a lot of folk, the bike I like best is often the bike I'm on.
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I used a stack of oil on the meteor on my first rally, but I've stripped the motor and rebuilt it including a whole new breather setup. I am oil tight with no performance or electrical gremlins to speak of. As far as the a10 goes, it's going pretty good now. Has more top end but chasing anymore would involve re balancing the motor. The vibes above 60mph are very strong, too strong to sit comfortably on. I have eliminated the oil leaks now though and it starts first kick every time, runs very will and my charging system now works. I am still fettling the reg but am just about there. If I spit the dummy and get another bout of situational terrets syndrome I'll just buy another electronic reg and fit that but at least i know the mag works very well.
Cheers,
Dave.
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I have been reading this thread with interest as it almost completely mirrors the experience I had with my Dommie. I converted it to `12V and could never get it to work right. When I converted back to 6V (in both cases with a VReg II) the battery was still not charging.
The dynamo motored but was only kicking out about 1.5V. When I shorted the F & D terminals on the dynamo I got a good healthy charge. In the end I shorted F & D and went for a 30 mile run. When I got back I removed the link between F & D and it worked fine.
When I did the A7 I had similar problems and did the same thing. It works great. I have a 6V halogen headlight and the light output is superb. At tickover I show a discharge on the ammeter but at anything abobe tickover it briefly goes to a positive reading and then settles back to about zero. all of this is with the headlight on.
Z