The BSA A7-A10 Forum
Technical (Descriptive Topic Titles - Stay on Topic) => A7 & A10 Engine => Topic started by: groily on 21.10. 2007 12:52
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Following a hissy fit yesterday am when the A10 pumped half a pint of oil out of the breather on a very smoky start-up (the tank level had dropped a lot overnight - first time it's done that since I bought the thing) am thinking about an in-line tap plus mag cut-out on the feed line. (Hasn't done it since, btw, and it ran 120 miles yesterday, not a drop of oil used, and no smoke).
Also, if I'm playing plumber, a proper filter in the return would be good. Any thoughts out there from them as knows on these points?
Have done the tap job on an AMC twin using a chunky plumbing item - they really do tend to need it - but haven't personally seen an A series with a tap fitted and there ain't room for the size of thing I used on t'other bike. Anyone know of a supplier of a kit for sorting either or both issues out? Or could anyone describe parts they've used, filter spec, etc?
Ta muchly, Groily
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Hi Groily,
A lot of A7 & A10 owners shy away from an inline tap in case they forget to turn it on prior to using the bike. Maybe it isn't a problem to someone who is used to turning on the oil tap at the same as they turn on the petrol tap.
An alternative would be to fit an inline valve. These are available for about £35 but there are a couple of points of view on them. Apparently (I say this because I don't have one fitted) the guys who use their bikes for short distances don't seem to have a problem with them. The long haul riders tend not to use them in case the valve comes into operation and restricts the oil flow whilst the bike is being ridden.
It's up to the individual I suppose. If your bike has only wet-sumped the once, why not check the oil level in the tank before you start the engine for the next few weeks. It might just be a "One Off".
If it has started to wet-sump on a regular basis you could obtain a sump plate with a drain plug. Then all you need to do is drain the sumped oil into a clean container and then pour it back into the oiltank. It only takes a few minutes.
B31's & B33's have a sump plug cast into the crankcases. I don't know why BSA decided not to use the same system on the A series models.
Beezageezauk.
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Thanks Beezageeza. Much appreciated. I wouldn't install anything without it earthing the mag when the thing's shut off, that's for sure. And I suspect the long haul folk are right about the valve option - I'd be nervous about something that didn't have positive mechanical opening and closing.
I was thinking about modifying (or making/buying another) the sump-plate with a drain plug - but had to drain a certain AMC object for the first 30 years of my ownership till I got so peed off with having to get a quart out every time I left the thing more than a week! It may just have been a messy one-off with this machine (fingers crossed) - as I said, first time it's done it. Usually I ride my toys several times a week all year round (always after looking at the oil level first and checking the return is working), but even when I've left the A10 a week, it hasn't wet-sumped more than a wee bit before . . . We'll see. If it persists, I am going to make something that I reckon will be foolproof (if a bit agricultural, in true Back Street Mechanicking style). And figure out how and where to put a proper filter in the return side. Once they're in the head, it's hard to dislodge these sorts of thoughts! Will let you know what I end up with! Groily
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You may find the filter cures the problem on it's own if the wet sumping was due to a bit of dirt on the ball seat.
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Why be nervous about a ball and spring, there's already three in the A10 to start with and two of them are in the oil line
All the best - Bill
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True Fido - might well resolve it by just getting rid of the odd bit of muck. Any thoughts on best filter options? I was thinking of making a housing that would take a small car-type screw-on full flow job - but a kit figured out by someone else would obviously be easier if such exists.
Bill, But I'm ALWAYS unnaturally and however illogically nervous about balls and springs - don't even like thinking about them. Which is fine for as long as they don't draw attention to themselves by not seating, getting stuck, whatever. The thought of a ball that's meant to unseat with suction from the delivery side of the pump, and close in its absence, doesn't make me feel great however good the physics of the thing! I'm happy to be called paranoid. Same with ball valves in breather pipes designed to stop sucking mist back in on the down strokes of the piston(s) - they aren't great always either. Maximum flow, minimum points of failure, that's what I say, whether it's oil air water or beer! Groily
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Hi, Groily plenty of oil filter kits on ebay site,these are RGM type filter as per original norton I have run one of these on return pipe on my A10 for years, also have a fiinned alloy sump plate with magnetic plug.only downside is finding a space for filter, I have mine mounted between frame & rear mudguard bit of a job to change filter but I reckon it,s worth it, As for balls & springs I have changed pressure relief valve for triumph type with plunger. I agree about maximum flow especially BEER..... Dave *smile*
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More than helpful - will go look - should just be time before going for max flow on the beer front! Groily
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Well, went and had a look at options for filters etc and I see there are indeed plenty out there. Thanks again folks for pointing me in the right direction. However, while I was on the dog and bone to one whom I regard as a Very Knowledgeable Person at SRM (who I really rate - they've been great over recent weeks as I reacquaint myself with the world of the A10) ordering up a sump plate with a bleeding drain plug, I raised the taps and filter Q. The VKP said -and I follow the logic as it's theoretically right - that a filter on the return side is A Bad Idea: a) because it ought to be on the feed side 'like in a normal engine' (that's the bit I agree with in theory - because it it should ideally) and b) because it 'can make wet-sumping worse'. Now, I agree that if one put the filter in with the pipes on the underside of the assembly so that the contents of the filter could drain back into the crankcase, it might. But I can't see why or how it could make the least difference if the filter was oriented properly- ie with the entry and exit pipes on the top. Nor can I see how it could be a bad thing to have a better filter than the wotsit that BSA fitted - on the return side.
Also found that no-one seems to offer a neat in-line tap/ignition cut-out solution that'll go on a BSA (apart from balls and springs), so shall have to make one. I am not going to mess around draining the crankcase every time the thing has a mild fit of incontinence, even after the new sump plate arrives and is installed. Did it this morning and it's a boring way to start a ride.
Meantime I'm still waiting for the post-fairy to bring some shiny exhaust pipes and amplifiers from Armours to replace the Siamese I don't like much . . . Groily
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Not sure what you mean about the advice re. filters. Are SRM saying don't fit a filter at all or do fit a filter but put it in the feed rather than the return? *conf*
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They don't fit one anywhere as far as I can understand Fido. Certainly don't supply or recommend anything, which given they're pretty smart (IMHO) I think is interesting. I thought some others on here might also find it interesting. Does it mean they think a return side filter is useless? - I don't know. I didn't ask if they favour one with their end-feed quill conversion either, but I wasn't really calling them about this - just wanted a sump plate with a magnetic plug and a big 'ole in it wiv a thread! Which they have lots of and which might come today . . . I live in oily-fingered hope. Groily
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hello, sorry to be off topic. But could someone explain to me what "wet sumping" is? I'm new to this world, and though I'm learning as much as i can, there is always so much more to learn:) maybe I've heard of the term in dutch, but I haven't in English. So anyone?
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Hi Pim,
our bikes have what they call dry sump engines, meaning that the oil is stored in a tank, away from the engine. As this tank is mounted higher than the crankcase it is possible for the oil to slowly drain down by gravity from the tank into the crankcase when the bike is not being used. There are built in devices to prevent this, in the form of ball & spring non-return valves. These devices rarely work perfectly and sometimes fail completely. This build up of oil in the crankcase can cause smoky exhaust on start up or sometimes oil sprayed out of the engine breather.
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I have used a return filter on my A10 for approx 18yrs & also have a alloy filter plate with magnetic plug fitted, never seen any metal particals on magnetic sump bung during oil changes. So filter is doing it,s job, much better than standard BSA tea strainer that was fiited as standard. As for restricting oil flow it doesn,t seem to be any problem, Also bsa fitted a filter inside BSA M20 oil tank,s on the return side, mind you I don,t know if I would fit a inline car type filter on my old M20 as I run straight 50w oil maybe a bit to thick for a paper filter, I don,t know why SRM don,t recommend a filter on return to tank. *eek* Dave........
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I reckon you've done the right thing G/F Dave. I'm still intending to do the same. If the thing's put in the right way up, I can't see any reason not to - the oil will fill the filter and then carry on up to the tank cos there's owt to stop it unless the filter element is blocked (I use 20/50 usually). It couldn't drain back into the crankcase, and there will therefore be oil for the rocker feed take-off same as usual. Can't see a downside. Has to be a lot better than what's there, which is where I started. Your experience makes total sense to me. Glad to say that when I drained the crankcase yesterday there was nothing nasty visible (except loads of clean oil), which pleased me. At the moment I'm trying to make a feed-line tap that works and will fit in the space available without my having to re-route the pipes in too ugly a fashion. But I'm also thinking about cause rather than symptoms - the A10 I had as a mad youth never did this, and it was the proverbial heap, went through several slung-together-on-a-budget-of- nothing engines and never appreciably wet-sumped. So I guess I'll have the plumbing apart, look at the pump etc and see if anything is obviously not kosher. As to a filter on the feed side - that could be a recipe for a disaster unless one could prime it easily every oil change . . . not sure it would ever be a good idea on a dry sump engine. And a double disaster if one had a tap tank-side of the filter, the filter drained into the crankcase overnight and it took a couple of mins for the pump to suck the filter full before any any new oil got where it's needed. Ah well, what do I know, back to the shed . . Groily
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SRM are talking nonsense. If you were to have your engine rebuilt by SRM they will tell you that the warranty will be invalidated if you fit an oil filter and do not use mono grade oil. Even BSA towards the end were advocating the use of multi grade oil. Why would a company charge you a lot of money to rebuild an engine, and then tell you to use an out dated oil formula, and not to use a filter, and only give you a six month warranty? Go figure! Modern oils are superior to old oils in every respect. If you value your engine use them, and use a filter. While I agree that the ideal solution is for the filter to be fitted in the supply line, you will find that it will work perfectly well in the return line, and it does not cause wet sumping. Any filtration is better than none. Technology has moved on. Why would you want to clog up the centrifugal trap with sludge and debris when a filter will safely remove it? Several filters are available that can easily be fitted to BSA twins. There is one that can be fitted inside the tool box if you want it to be out of sight. Personally I have a BSA/Triumph Triple type filter fitted. The elements are still available and are still made by the original manufacturer. Just for the record my bike was run in on Asda super market 20/50, it now runs on fully synthetic 20/50. It does not leak oil or suffer from any other oil related problem. Think on this: The BSA/Triumph Triples were really only Triumph 500 twins with a third cylinder tacked on, and BSA/Triumph in their infinite wisdom fitted a full flow oil filter as standard, and recommended multi grade oil. There is no sensible or logical reasoning that can justify running your pride and joy without using only the best possible oil technology that money can buy, or even worse still, running it without a filter. Wet sumping is unavoidable, the laws of gravity see to that. The only variable is the time difference exhibited by individual bike. I have used the automatic in line valve in the past, but I no longer use it because the default failure mode is for the valve to close. As has already been mentioned in this thread the best solution is to fit one of the after market sump castings with a magnetic drain plug.
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I think if you ask the oil manufacturers they would not recommend synthetic oil in elderly engines. It is designed for close tolerance modern engines that can run on reduced oil film thickness. People like Castrol make oil specifically for Classic engines which is still superior to the lubricant available when our bikes were manufactured.
As an aside, I had a telephone conversation this evening with a friend who has a 1929 Triumph 550 sidevalve single outfit. This bike has suffered loss of power of recent years and he has sent the top end away to a vintage specialist. It turns out that the valves have been overheating and getting momentarily welded to their seats in the head. This has been attributed to the use of fuel additive which has been added since the demise of leaded petrol. From now on he will just run with straight unleaded. I dare say the petrol available in 1929 was fairly hit & miss and may not have contained lead anyway.
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Redline make a 20/50 fully synthetic oil that is specifically formulated for older and air cooled engines. You can read all about it here:
http://www.turbobits.co.uk/acatalog/redline_20w50_synthetic_motor_oil_quart.html
Regarding the valve trouble that your friend has had, I am not persuaded that any of the so called lead replacement addetives are worthwhile using. I used to run on genuine leaded 4 star until my local garage stopped selling it (He said that there was not enough demand). I now use TESCO 99 and my bike runs just fine on that, but then I have an ally head and the valve seats are already hardened (or so I am told)! Anyway it does not pink, and it pulls like a train.
Be aware that multi grade oils hold contaminants in suspension and these are removed by your filter. "Classic" mono grade oil does not hold contaminants and impurities they are centrifuged out by the sludge trap which gradually becomes blocked and its efficiency is then compromised until eventually no oil reaches the big ends. This is very old, and very crude technology, if you want your bike to last abandon mono grade oil, and fit a filter. I would also recommend using Redex as a matter of course for two reasons. 1) Redex lubricates the valves, and 2) modern petrol tends to gum up your carb jets. Redex will help to prevent this. Another good idea is to visit your local garden centre, or where ever motor mowers are serviced near you, and buy some petrol stabalizer this will also be a great help in preventing jet blockages due to modern petrol gumming up the works.
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I agree with pretty much all of that re oils. I have used 20/50s various in everything I own for all my adult life, and even without filters etc have never had any trouble in gazillions of miles. If they'd been available at the time any sensible manufacturer would have recommended them. Castrol classic oils do a nice 10/60 (semi or fully synthetic) which I have used in some cars where I don't want to be changing the oil all the time (and there's no need with the long chain polymers etc blah blah) - but too expensive for bikes that get their oil changed along with my socks. I use mainly Elf 20/50 from the French supermarket, at about 12 Euros for 5 litres. Also agree, as I said, re filters of any sort being better than nothing and ergo a Good Idea not a bad one! This forum doesn't seem to have some of the more bizarre and vituperative commentaries on what oil to use which are to be found elsewhere - it's one of its better features! But a friend of mine who used to be head chemist at one of the bigger oil companies agrees entirely with the use of the best available - which is modern multigrade - with a caveat regarding use of synthetics in some cases which i can't remember, although one of them was during running-in of old rebuilt engines (it's too effective and prolongs the process apparently). Whatever, I shall put a suitable filter in the return, finish my tap with cut-out for the feed line, instal the sump plate with drain plug and carry on same as ever. Groily
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I have always used a 20/50 multigrade in my A10, never had any problems with it. But I would not use it in my M20 as it has a roller big end which I think a mono grade is more suitable.As for filters I have seen these fitted upside down/sideways on & crammed into any available space. I don,t know if they work well fitted like this, I have always fitted them in the upright position ie; cartridge at bottom (you can see mine fitted to my A10 in the photo section of this forum ) reason being all the crud stays at bottom of filter hopefully..I would say if you do not have a filter fitted then you are asking for sludge build up in crank. Also you have a extra half litre or so of oil in the system which must be a good thing.Groily I would check your oil pump to check for any wear/scoring I don,t have a wet sump problem on my A10 but I normally give it a good thrashing at least twice a week this could be why?????. Dave *smile*
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Hey is this developing into our first oil thread !!!!!!
Duckhams developed multigrade oil 20/50 for use in air cooled motorcycle engines way back ( late fifties early sixties ? )
Wet sumping can only occur if a bit of debris or the wieght of oil overcomes the tenson of the spring holding the ball against the pressure side of the pump, to fix this probably means a major strip down, the easy answer is to use one of Bri - Ties anti wet-sumping valves which basically does the same thing as the one in the engine but uses the pumps suction instead of pressure ( same cogs in the pump ).
Many engines in cars and other vehicles have filters on the return side - not a problem
All the best - Bill
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It's all great stuff. I saw a fellow French club member this a.m. with his A7 - which he proudly told me last week never ever had a drop of surplus oil in the crankcase and 'there must be something wrong with yours mate' . . . he was late on parade . . . had to drain his crankcase before he could get going. Smoke and oil everywhere, and an almost empty oil tank, when he looked, after a few days in his shed. Touchay, as they say hereabouts. Funny old world. Now he's asking me what he should do - talk about country of the blind and the one-eyed man! That was what I asked him last week.
Re giving things a good thrashing, reckon I part-qualify in terms of usage even if I'm not throttle-happy - a steady 65 in Christian units will do for me on the old stuff - esp when the speed limit is 90kph. And the old 'uns get used most days all year as it's sooo much better than sitting in a tin box. Round here, it's a modern Yamaha XJR that sits and collects bird-doo cos it's just boring as well as licence threatening. This year my old AMC twin (tell me about wet-sumping, tin primary chaincases, drowned clutches, porous drive-side mainshaft non-seals) has done four times the mileage of the Yam (the AJ's already done a quarter of a million miles), and the BSA twice as much as the japanese, even though I only bought it in June. So it's not lack of use. (The Yam may not have ***** out any oil though - so will probably go rusty.)
Think I agree about monogrades and roller ends, although I'm not sure if there aren't multigrades which are sticky enough these days even for them. In my youf I ran a B31 on whatever I could pinch from my dad's shed - and the engine was 100% bullet-proof. Ditto a series of Ariel singles (which weren't as bullet-proof and cost me quite a bit by the standards of the day). Most of us have got some rollers in our hair - I mean engine, don't go there - even if they're lighter loaded than a big end. Think on balance if I had a single I would probably go 30 grade for winter, 50 for summer - certainly mates with Velos and stuff do that.
Re having a look at the oil pump arrangements, balls and springs etc - I'm going to. Can't remember from long ago quite what's in there (must buy book one day), and not sure the whole thing has to come to bits to check it out. But I'm not putting a(nother) one way spring-loaded ball valve in there, unless the default setting is 'open'! Am half-way through knocking up a steel feed-line tap with a tapered tip that seals off the flow when screwed in, when it also earths the mag . . . Q is, will it fit or am I going to have to make a spaghetti-like mess of the plumbing . . . and can I make some nice grooves to hold O rings to stop the thing leaking out of the screw-in bit. Modern in-line plumbing taps with the rotating metal ball system of closure (rather than a rubbery pad that cuts the flow) seem to have 'orrible nylon seals in them, which is an invitation for trouble as they might melt, stop working effectively, and worse, send a gooey mess down the feed line. Brass on brass is what we really need, like a decent old-fashioned gas tap. Used one of them the other week to replace a leaking petrol tap - taper-needle principle again, and it is amazingly effective and petrol proof, with no seals, no cork, no plastic - just good ole fashioned metal to metal. Problem (apart from offending purists cos it looks different) is that the high pressure gas regulator I started with from the box of odds and ends cost someone far more than any fuel tap we're ever likely to see - and I only had one lying around. Ah well, time for (more) beer, which will be the cause of any b**** in this offering . . . Groily
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here's a prototype in line oil tap . . . haven't figured exactly where to put it for easy access yet, but it'll work i reckon. Groily