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Bikes, Pictures, Stories & more => Chat, Offtopic, Meetings & Everything Else => Topic started by: G/F DAVE on 08.12. 2010 11:44

Title: RGS replicas = cafe racers/ bitsas
Post by: G/F DAVE on 08.12. 2010 11:44
I dont know how many of you have noticed that there seems to be a increased selection of so called ROCKET GOLD STAR REPLICAS for sale lately.Can someone tell me where the name replica came from and where did it start ?.When I first started riding  / repairing bikes these were called cafe racers made from bits from several different bikes put together to make up a bike.To my mind BSA never made a replica of anything. I have seen them with made up with cable rear brakes / B31 tanks with a 4" goldie badge crammed into place / A7 engines ( See Item number: 150530644852 on ebay  even seen one with a diver helmet headlamp cowl fitted (nice) .These bikes are just cafe racers but by claiming a RGS REPLICA name tag you can bung up the resale price to twice their real value.You can still have a nice looking cafe racer with all the right bits but to call it a replica RGS is sad. Dave..
Title: Re: RGS replicas = cafe racers/ bitsas
Post by: bsa-bill on 08.12. 2010 13:33
Couldn't agree more Dave, which is why this is a Rocket Golf Flash
Title: Re: RGS replicas = cafe racers/ bitsas
Post by: alanp on 08.12. 2010 13:41
I agree with your sentiments and would advise anyone thinking of buying one to take along someone who knows a lot about the real RGS spec. My RGS replica has been very carefully produced with a mid '50s frame which corresponds to the '62 RGS with the Goldie rear brake design on the left and correct battery tray position etc etc etc especially after the top frame gusset and lower engine frame lugs have been changed. There are very many points to consider (some not obvious at all) and the price of an RGS described as a replica will depend on how far the conversion was carried out. Many owners don't know the many differences from say a Super Rocket and most will not have the time/finance/skill/motivation to do a thorough job anyhow. My log book clearly shows it's not genuine due to it's first registered date in the '50s and I wouldn't dream of trying to con anyone about it, but to me it is a replica which has even fooled owners of genuine RGSs. Takes dedication though.
Title: Re: RGS replicas = cafe racers/ bitsas
Post by: Goldy on 08.12. 2010 16:47
As I read somewhere recently there are more BSA Gold Stars on the road than were actually made.
Title: Re: RGS replicas = cafe racers/ bitsas
Post by: trickytree on 08.12. 2010 17:50
Dont get me started!! Look up "replica" in a decent dictionary and I'm sure it says something like "exact copy"....so the vast majority of these heaps are nothing like a replica.

There should be a sub routine on ebay that subtitutes the word "replica" for "worthless pile of tat thrown together to dupe born again bikers out of loads of money"

Title: Re: RGS replicas = cafe racers/ bitsas
Post by: G/F DAVE on 09.12. 2010 18:39
I have read your replys but they still dont really answer my original question, Why are these bikes being called replicas not cafe racers? I have seen TRIUMPH T110s with twin carb heads & rev counters and made to look like a bonneville but they are not call bonneville replicas, BSA B33s with clip ons barrells & head sprayed silver etc but these are not called goldie replicas just bitsas / cafe racers or even custom bikes. I have also seen some very nice A10s in cafe racer style & can aknowledge the work & skill gone into producing such a machine.
 On a different note I recently met a guy who has bought  a A10 which has a B31 frame no one else wanted it and as it had been advertised for a while so he got it for a bargain price.Now this bike had a goldie tank, A10R hhc engine, goldie wheels & brakes etc on checking engine number found out it was a genuine RGS lump so he visited the seller to find out more of its history, seems it was originally his brothers bike that was crashed in the 60s to be re-framed with a B31 frame & his brother still had the bent GA10 frame in his garage roofspace needless to say he bought this frame to be reunited with engine.Lucky or what *eek* Dave          They are still out there to be found good luck!
Title: Re: RGS replicas = cafe racers/ bitsas
Post by: tombeau on 10.12. 2010 07:13
When you see parts like rear brake cables listed as RGS, you really have to wonder "why?"
The seller must know its wrong. It makes him look stupid as well.
Cheers,
Iain
Title: Re: RGS replicas = cafe racers/ bitsas
Post by: a101960 on 10.12. 2010 10:07
The motivation is greed simple as that. A bit like the practice that is becoming ever more common where dealers especially, and some private sellers are no longer stating a price in an attempt to get more money. POA (price on application) Ask, phone, or just a description without any mention of price. I for one treat these ads with the contempt that they deserve. I can't be bothered to play silly games. Then again I do not buy from ebay for the same reason. I have no interest in bidding. I just want to see an item offered for sale with the correct description and a price. I will then decide weather I want to do business. And why do auctioneers charge a buyers premium? What is all that about? I have to assume that there are a lot of gullible people who are extremely happy to be ripped off.

John
Title: Re: RGS replicas = cafe racers/ bitsas
Post by: bsa-bill on 10.12. 2010 11:28
Quote
And why do auctioneers charge a buyers premium?

I could be wrong John but I think it's common practise at auctions that a commission is charged to both seller and buyer., sellers can pay 8 to 20% (then vat on that) and buyers up to 10%.

Early days on Ebay it was like a huge jumble, now it's become much more of an on-line store, for bike stuff I have a few trusted sellers who are reputable traders.

More and more though there are sellers asking way too high prices for stuff available from your regular trader for less, so check your trader for price before you bid.

Also of course there is the option to "Ask the seller a question" like "Will that plunger gearbox really fit my RGS?" *smiley4*
Title: Re: RGS replicas = cafe racers/ bitsas
Post by: a101960 on 10.12. 2010 15:44
Quote
I could be wrong John but I think it's common practise at auctions that a commission is charged to both seller and buyer., sellers can pay 8 to 20% (then vat on that) and buyers up to 10%.

Bill, Yes, I know this a universal practice. What I do not understand is why buyers are prepared to go along with it. How would people react I wonder if for example they were told that they had to pay a buyers premium when they went through the check out at Tesco? Sellers obviously pay for services rendered, but buyers? A very dubious practice I would contend.

I am not sure that I would trust a seller to give me true and accurate information when descriptions like RGS rear brake cable are used, or RGS, Gold Star wiring harness with no QD plug. Like you I use only trusted reliable sellers. If I go to SRM, Burton Bike Bits,C&D Autos, or any of the many other similar suppliers of BSA parts I know exactly what I am going to get, and what the price is going to be. Another annoyance  is where prices listed do not include VAT.
Title: Re: RGS replicas = cafe racers/ bitsas
Post by: tombeau on 14.12. 2010 08:13
 a while back I saw one that was described as a "genuine replica"
You've got to be careful, you wouldn't want to get your fingers burnt over a fake replica.
Cheers,
Iain
Title: Re: RGS replicas = cafe racers/ bitsas
Post by: groily on 14.12. 2010 18:14
How true Tombeau!
Words and Humpty Dumpty come to mind.
As in (roughly) 'words mean what I want them to mean, no more and no less'.
A purist might say that unless a machine still comprises all its original parts (or original factory-made model-specific spares, worst case), it is at least part replica. There are vehicles around, languishing and unused, because their owners don't want to restore them because 'they wouldn't be original'. Rather screws up the main reason for having them if they won't go.
Replica means copy, except in the rare factory cases of, eg 'TT Replica' Rudges or whatever. Copies come in many grades, like oil. Most are inexact imitations, putting it politely. But many are beautifully made, so credit where it's due.
My stuff is all 'genuinely authentic fake' in at least some respect, even where the 'numbers match' (ha! - another tin of worms) and the thing looks right.
Given that we're only really talking about motorised bicycles (and pretty bits of bent tin in the case of old 4-wheelers), I'm in the camp that approves of honest bitsas, as long as they work properly and aren't mis-sold. I get as much pleasure - more actually - from playing with my incorrect 'mixer' B31 or A10 than I do from one or two other things that are actually rather more 'correct'.
It doesn't make much odds value-wise with cooking stuff, but the galling thing is when people mis-describe sought-after and more expensive toys (and profit from the gullible). E-Bay regularly has things which can't possibly be what the seller says, even if the seller honestly believes his own BS.
Like John, I hate all auctions anyway and only go near as a very last resort. But hey, it's the usual problem. Try to sell something useful through the older channels and it's 'nah mate, two a penny/dime a dozen, them'. Try to buy a boring thjng - like a chainguard or something - and 'they're rockin' 'orse droppings mate'.
'Twas ever thus, sadly. Which is why a lot of us are happy to mix 'n match if that's what gets things going and keeps them going.
Title: Re: RGS replicas = cafe racers/ bitsas
Post by: Lukey on 21.12. 2010 21:49
I am planning on building a b33/b31 into a goldstar replica, it will be using goldie barrels, head,crank, goldie tank, wheels etc as I cant afford a genuine goldie and its more the riding it than anything.  I wont ever sell it as It will be hand built and a sort of road racing machine purely for the kicks. If I could get the same amount of power out of a b33 engine ( which I think I can) then I will be doing that. Built for a purpose of riding fast and being a 500 single with the twitter. I will know its not a goldie but others might not. Its up to them to decide what they want to call it  *smile*
Title: Re: RGS replicas = cafe racers/ bitsas
Post by: bsa-bill on 21.12. 2010 22:33
Never mind what others want to call it, you call it yours and it's yours to make whatever you want out of it.
Title: Re: RGS replicas = cafe racers/ bitsas
Post by: Lukey on 22.12. 2010 11:49
This is how I would like mine to come out, to me its georgeous, only BSA enthusiasts would know its not a goldstar. For me half the fun as was with the MZ was tuning it and getting the best performance out of it, Not so it blows up but improving what it already is. A goldstar is fantastic and has brilliant performance out of the box but that's the point, its out of the box, there all the same

I prefer my bikes to be built not brought, to go out with the goldie lads on a b31/b33 and keep up with them would make me just as proud as owning a goldstar, you get the purist's who like everything original but i see it like this, If its a BSA engine and frame then surely its another BSA kept on the road?? whether its original or not

I do love original bikes just as much as modified bikes ( the a10 and a7ss etc) but theres also the fun element involved of building a machine from a box bits to YOUR OWN taste

(https://www.a7a10.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi460.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fqq325%2FBondBug_2008%2FBSA%2Fth_4955180388_07b119c994_z.jpg&hash=90b6b432a8773ea59d66f8ca390d1971) (http://s460.photobucket.com/albums/qq325/BondBug_2008/BSA/?action=view&current=4955180388_07b119c994_z.jpg)

(https://www.a7a10.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi460.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fqq325%2FBondBug_2008%2FBSA%2Fth_4955181380_8198fc01a8_z.jpg&hash=fe8d79e746391c5ec7192b5616d58f26) (http://s460.photobucket.com/albums/qq325/BondBug_2008/BSA/?action=view&current=4955181380_8198fc01a8_z.jpg)

(https://www.a7a10.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi460.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fqq325%2FBondBug_2008%2FBSA%2Fth_4955187612_6218666659_z.jpg&hash=a657e153aa0aa6412ef5942d1cc794fc) (http://s460.photobucket.com/albums/qq325/BondBug_2008/BSA/?action=view&current=4955187612_6218666659_z.jpg)

(https://www.a7a10.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi460.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fqq325%2FBondBug_2008%2FBSA%2Fth_4955178476_b34e4faff91.jpg&hash=32aaa64bffd92308242b1763dbc6baf7) (http://s460.photobucket.com/albums/qq325/BondBug_2008/BSA/?action=view&current=4955178476_b34e4faff91.jpg)

to me that is gorgeous, there are some things I dont like which when I build mine will be changed
Title: Re: RGS replicas = cafe racers/ bitsas
Post by: Triton Thrasher on 22.12. 2010 15:52
'Fraid I don't really understand GFDave's problem.  Sellers want big prices?  People are calling copies replicas, which means copies?  Auctioneers are crooks?

Welcome to life.
Title: Re: RGS replicas = cafe racers/ bitsas
Post by: bsa-bill on 22.12. 2010 16:38
Bankers, Auctioneers,  insurance agents - really just about anybody in the financial services industries.
All got one thing, in common they rip us of using our own money -- neat init





Now I've got my flame suit on just waiting for a banker forum member to reply  *computer* *fight*
 Nah he's probably on a Harley list
Title: Re: RGS replicas = cafe racers/ bitsas
Post by: RichardL on 23.12. 2010 14:51
Lukey (or some one),

Being an American, English is, of course, my second language. So, can you exlain what "twitter" means in the following excerpt (from Lukey)
"Built for a purpose of riding fast and being a 500 single with the twitter."

Will there be a keyboard across the handlebars so you you can tweet your friends "Just got cut off again.by another »*#+?! little old lady."?

Richard L.
Title: Re: RGS replicas = cafe racers/ bitsas
Post by: bsa-bill on 23.12. 2010 15:06
Over here Richard and US as well I think there is a computer site called twitter, never been on it myself but people go on and apparently tell the world what they are doing and where, big percentage of them are probably burglars I would think, anyway they go on there and apparently "Tweet", this world is leaving me behind and  I'm in no hurry to catch up.

HOWEVER the Twitter Lukey refers to is the Twitter that Gold Stars are famed for, it's to do with valve overlap I think ( would love to be expert on things Goldie but I'm not) and it happens when on overrun when the exhaust note changes and --- Twitters
Title: Re: RGS replicas = cafe racers/ bitsas
Post by: a101960 on 23.12. 2010 15:37
I think that the famous Gold Star twitter is due to the original BSA silencer baffle design. Some after market silencers do not twitter.

John
Title: Re: RGS replicas = cafe racers/ bitsas
Post by: Lukey on 23.12. 2010 16:56
This is the twitter I am on about

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKYZSL6PK-s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TC-XArBcBpU&feature=related

The top two sound the best along with the last one  *smile*

http://www.youtube.com/user/828cc#p/u/18/drKxDI_A-cA after he accelerates deaceleration

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xP1boGSxJLw

The best sound in the world, I could sit and listen to it all day everyday  *smile*
Title: Re: RGS replicas = cafe racers/ bitsas
Post by: mrshells on 27.12. 2010 22:46
Not a big fan of the "replica" thing I prefer Cafe Racer description
but however you descrive these BSAa they are made up of some very difficult to come by parts
and some very expensive parts
unfortunatley some of this price hike is because people state the parts as RGS when they are actually not
overpriced replicas. copys ,fakes call them what you will
at the end of the day they are British bikes being kept on the road

anyone seen the price of a Molnar Manx Norton ?  £24000
yes that is the correct amount of noughts
I dont think an original one is worth that much yet
Title: Re: RGS replicas = cafe racers/ bitsas
Post by: kiwipom on 15.01. 2011 11:11
Hi guys, I am new to this forum so here is a few lines about myself. My A10 started life in 1954 as a Gold Flash in New Zealand; I purchased it in 1990 as a non runner with some extra parts. Apart from dismantling it and doing minimal work on it nothing was done for 15years until I got enthused to rebuild it. I decided that I would like to turn it into a R.G.Star lookalike so the work began I have a couple of pics that will let you see what has been done so far. I have always liked the B.S.A. clubman?s type style from my early days as a teenager from Kent where I rode my Norton 99 to and fro work and was frequently overtaken by a guy on a R.G.Star, I tried but could never catch him. Well that is my A10 introduction don`t know if anyone else from N.Z. is on the forum I guess I will find out soon, I have been here since 1971,cheers,   
Title: Re: RGS replicas = cafe racers/ bitsas
Post by: bsa-bill on 15.01. 2011 11:24
Hi There - nice bike and different enough to be your very own.
Like the seat, Black tanks   - not sure about the barrels but certainly changes the look of the engine looks a lot bigger .

Kind of similar to what I'm busy with (my Rocket Gold Flash), I like the idea of getting RGS style without making a replica, seems like I'm not alone.
Keep up the good work
Title: Re: RGS replicas = cafe racers/ bitsas
Post by: andy2565 on 15.01. 2011 13:20
thats the point,the word replica should be replaced with the word "style",as i'm doing at the moment building an "A10 in spitfire style"but with up to date mods.
Title: Re: RGS replicas = cafe racers/ bitsas
Post by: kiwipom on 16.01. 2011 07:30
hi guys/bsa-bill, yes the only bit that was done when i got it was the tank,thought about changing the colour but decided to leave it for now,too much other stuff to do. The barrels i got from u.s.a. recond +40 with new pistons(thick flange)mine was thin flange, a mate who works at air N.Z. got them painted with some heat shedding paint that they use on jet engines, we need to keep these cool out here, has been 34 deg.c today. The only bit that is genuine r.g.s is the ali head which i got locally have got new valves/guides to be put in yet, i have converted the mag to electronic ignition, Thor spark kit from u.k. have changed the armature/field coil of the dynamo to 12v and have a dvr2 voltage reg to control it, have had the crank done(small journal)with new mains and s.r.m. billet con rods and various other bits, i am waiting the delivery of a belt drive dynamo kit from sean hawker electrics u.k.so hopefully the thing will go good when finally completed. Saw a post on the forum from someone who had an oil gauge put in i would like to know how to do this if anyone can advise, i have an s.r.m. relief valve but that dose`nt tell me that i have pressure, after doing so much to this engine i don`t want to cook it. As you can see in the pics i too have converted to full width hubs so had to run the rear brake to the other side bit of a mission but i like full width for looks, throw back from my Norton days. About the 'replica' title yes i agree look-alike is how i refer to these hibreds, i have no intension of trying to fool anyone i am building my bike to my own cafe racer stye because that is what i like, when i had my Norton 99, i converted it to cafe racer with all the Dunstall bits, i was living in Kent at that time, moving to London put paid to that it got stolen and that was the last i saw of it,cheers guys, Bob. 
Title: Re: RGS replicas = cafe racers/ bitsas
Post by: alanp on 25.02. 2011 14:30
Regarding RGS replicas, I've heard that some kit car replica companies refer to their replica kits as Tributes to the originals, so, from now on, Mine's an 'RGS Tribute Replica'. *smile* wink2 
Title: Re: RGS replicas = cafe racers/ bitsas
Post by: a101960 on 25.02. 2011 14:59
For those that want to know all about the RGS:

http://www.lightning-spares.co.uk/rgspage.htm

And scroll down to the Gold Star service feature which might be of interest to someone looking for Eddie Dow bits and pieces.

http://www.auto-cycle.co.uk/

John
Title: Re: RGS replicas = cafe racers/ bitsas
Post by: Rocket Racer on 12.03. 2011 20:42
I like to call mine a "special", although it was influenced by the A7SS daytona racers. I have kept the build very authentic and to the period (replica frame BB32R).
With all the american options available, the yanks could build a twin carb road rocket tricked up with goldie guards well before the poms finally built the rgs.
I build mine to ride, I appreciate a genuine bike but also appreciate seeing anything BSA being used on the track or road, however bitsa.

some pics of my road rocket (#306) in action at Pukekohe (feb 2011) and Hampton Downs (oct 2010) on http://www.highside.co.nz
it went very well albeit some ring and valve issues, still beat an 850 commando kneeler and several 9 and 10 stud trumpets

Bob, pleased to see another Kiwi on the site and you survived the quake! I'm not a mainlander being near Warkworth.
Cheers
Tim
Title: Re: RGS replicas = cafe racers/ bitsas
Post by: muskrat on 13.03. 2011 09:33
G'day Bob,
              bike looks great. Here's a pic of my oil pressure pick up.
Cheers
Title: Re: RGS replicas = cafe racers/ bitsas
Post by: alanp on 13.03. 2011 16:50
Bob, if your engine has a rev counter drive close to the PRV check out the attached photos for help.