The BSA A7-A10 Forum
Technical (Descriptive Topic Titles - Stay on Topic) => Lucas, Ignition, Charging, Electrical => Topic started by: BSA500 on 12.02. 2008 16:45
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Today the bike has been playing up again after breaking its throttle cable has now decided not to run on one cylinder.I think I know the issue but just to check with you lot as well. Will not run on drive side cylinder well....
1.Swopped plugs no change
2.Swapped ht leads no change
3.Swapped pick ups no change
4.Checked valve clearences both cylinders fine
Rembered broken pick up carbon brush which I could not find *idea*.Would this if it was insdie the mag still cause bad arching and prevent consistant spark to the left plug(if it was in the slip ring area it would be nearest the left hand pick up).
I am taking the mag off tonight to at least check and clean while I am there.If there is no brush then I am buggered if I know what is causing this ????
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If there are bits of busted brush floating around inside, that's not good news, although i wouldn't like to say it would be more likely to cause a consistent fault on one cylinder than a general malady. Given that a mag can send a spark a good quarter of an inch, a bit of spare conductor in there could cause a lot of arcing. The good news is that there are sparks on one side, apparently all the time - so the mag works.
However, there are other possibilities, and if you see no sign of the missing brush (or its spring?) inside, if I were you I'd have a good look at the contact breaker. Are the points gaps equal for each cylinder, or near enough? A big variation spells trouble. The bearing could be floppy (maybe the insulator washer behind it has disintegrated - they can do that), the hole in the fibre heel that the moving contact goes on is oval, etc, etc etc. Less likely: - If you've got manual ignition, the cam ring could be sitting a tad cockeyed in the end housing owing to wear in the latter. Even if you haven't got manual ignition, check the cam ring is a snug fit in the housing - if there's any wiggle room, that can be bad in terms of gap variation.
Also worth checking the earth bush is there and in good condition, although the thing can run without it, I'm told, and that should not be responsible for a one-cylinder problem.
I'm sure all will be revealed when you have the thing in your hand . . . whatever it is, it probably ain't that serious. Clean the slip ring carefully if you take the armature out (might be covered in black dust from remains of old brush?) - and watch out for the 'safety screws' - if you don't take them out of the mag body first you'll likely bust the slip ring trying to pull the armature out, which is a big pain. (If you leave the armature in, clean the slip ring with clean rag on the end of something blunt poked through the pick-up holes.) Note the shims, if any, between the end piece that holds the cam ring and the body, too . . . need them to be right to manage the endfloat of the armature. Make sure the points are clean and try to see whether they mate squarely when they are shut - they often aren't that good. Far easier to set their gap with the mag on the bench, too, as it's hard to get a spanner on the locknut and another on the fixed point when you're doing it with your head at a horrible angle and not much room, poor light etc. Fingers crossed. Groily
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I still have the spring so thats not floating about.I will strip the mag down(done it loads of times so the safety gap screws are the first thing removed) and clean it,had a look at the points and they are square and clean.Like you said setting and checking the mag is easier on the bench rather than rolling around on the floor will let you know what I find.
Andy
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The offending brush was inside the mag and had not been turned to powder so not too much mess.No bearing problems,shims etc all seems fine with the mag.So I shall take the morning off tomorrow to set up the mag and retime the engine.Fingers crossed.
Andy
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With the working cylinder spark plug removed, check for compression on the problem cylinder. If you have a compression tester you could compare the 2 cylinders.
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Thinking along Fido's line, is it possible that the nib (I forgot the correct name) at the slide got inhaled into the cylinder? If so, the wire could be keeping the intake valve from closing, however, the fact that the clearances are correct may kill that idea. Maybe there's damage to the valve or seat (we hope not). Maybe just having the nib with some wire attached jumping around in the cylinder precludes ignition. There is also the possibility that there was coincidental gasket failure at the same time (or nearly so) as the cable failure. I guess all of these are obscure, but it's interesting to speculate. I actually believe, and hope, for your sake, the problem will go away after the magneto service.
Richard
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If it worked before I reckon the offending lost brush is the culprit . . . fingers crossed again . . . Groily
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Ok,
Mag rebuilt retimed and an attempt at starting,still playing up.Hmm said I.So checked the plugs again and then remembered that I had taken them out and laid them on the head good spark but had then put them back into the same cylinders as before and not swopped them as I had first thought.So stuck a spare plug in t'whole and away we go.Seems plug was failing under compression but I did have to retrieve the brush anyway so a good internal clean of the mag is never a bad thing.Of course now the timing is slightly out(advanced) and pinking.Bugger.
Andy
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Well, you must admit, those of us who predicted the probelm would be corrected after the magneto was checked and serviced were correct, notwithstanding the fact that the magneto was not the actual problem.
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Yep can't deny you're right.I have some photos to post of the bike so I should download those soon.
Andy
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It's always great when a problem's solved, no matter the bends in the road. And as you say, Andy, you had to get that brush out, as it was almost bound to cause trouble sometime. Boring and fiddly having to set the timing again, but hey, you know the thing's going to work now, so with light heart and light touch, and a wedge in the ATD to hold it in the full advance position (if you've got one on there), all will be made perfect. Groily
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Yes its got the auto advance its always a pain doing timing like this as you only know its right when you ride it and then if its wrong off comes the timing case etc again hey ho.
Andy
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'Tis a pain indeed. Have you thought of making a fixed length piston stop which goes through the remains of a screwed-in spark plug and stops the piston positively at the right distance before tdc? (Smash ceramic bit and earth electrode off old plug, shove threaded rod through, with washers/nuts etc both ends, and hey presto, a special weapon for the engine in question.) Have to measure as carefully as possible to get the length right, natch, but then at least you're down just to getting the points in the right place (and ATD wedged). Or you can make a rod which slides in the old plug, with calibrations marked by filed notches . . . stop turning when the right one lines up against a fixed reference point on the outside. Groily.
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I have one of those nifty screw in timing tools(Sammy Millers) which I mark tdc and then mark 3/8 inch above.
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Very nice tool to have Andy. . . had I but known they existed! . . . Should be poss to set it to rights pretty quickly with that little gem. Wish there was something to help with the other half of the job. Groily
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Sooo, if I understand this, you let the probe float and observe TDC, then, you run it down to the BTDC timing depth and lock it, feeling for the touch when you rotate the crankshaft. Andy, did you error when saying you marked it "above" TDC, because I don't know how you get there. I am wondering if the crank can be turned gently enough to just kiss the probe and hold it there without nicking the piston or bending the probe. Have you had any trouble with that? I also wonder if the angle of the probe causes a false reading with respect to distance from TDC, hypotenusally thinking. (See the next post.)
Richard
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Here's a rough representation (all in metric) of the problem I see with the probe angle. As you see, it represents a 70 mm piston with the probe touching the top at a 45 deg. angle (just an approximation), so, where you pushed in 3/8" (9.525 mm) you're really measuring 6.7352 mm.
Is this something to think about?
Richard
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Ok try to explain this I think.You turn the engine by hand then rear wheel for small adjustments until you have found tdc.This is then marked with a fine pen.You then slide the probe out and mark a line 3/8 inch above the tdc mark.You put the probe back in and turn the engine BACKWARDS beyond the new timing mark this is to take out any backlash in the timing gears.The engine is then wound forward until the 3/8 inch mark is lined up this should be the the static timing mark to set the mag up.I have worried about the angle problem as well but using this method I have usually managed to time up the engine ok.But if I happen to have had to remove the head I set it up the timing the measuring the piston movement.I usually have trouble judging the points just opening bit and as in this case the points are a little to advanced.
Andy
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Hello,
I also have one of these "ignition setting micrometers", and its very useful indeed.
When you have found TDC, its just to back the piston, and screw down the micrometer scale to the right value, it measures in 1/10 mm, a bit over the top of accuracy for most of our engines I guess, but it feels good to be on the spot.
The cost for the device is about 55 USD.
Nitti
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What is needed is a fine adjustment on the Magneto, a very thin plate between the magneto and the timing case with a micro adjustment between the plate ( fixed to the timing case ) and the magneto (adjuster fixed to the magneto ), the three holes in the magneto would need to elongated.
I know for a fact that this has been done ( although I cannot remember who it was that has done it but he is on a internet list)
Some enterprizing trader might take this up???
All the best - Bill
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Andy,
With your explanation, the "mark above" from your previous post makes perfect sense. Thnaks for clearing that up for me. Does the probe in your device get locked in place or does it move with the movement of the piston? If it locks, I am still a little curious about the "feel" of the piston coming in contact, but, I think that is something one must learn for one's self. I will be able to time my rebuild with the head off, so the whole question might not matter to me, for now.
Richard
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I found a picture of one on ebay and it does not lock but move with the piston.....
(https://www.a7a10.net/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi11.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa170%2Fbsa500%2Fdsp_pc090060.jpg&hash=af1d7970a032a1f545cd2a331ef71e48b6b058ab)
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I think if you use the device shown you should calculate for the plug hole angle. I use a pencil poked down the plug hole and try to keep it as near vertical as possible to reduce the angular error.
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I may have already tortured this, but I'll stick my neck out anyway. Suppose you have concave or domed pistons, then, the point at which you make contact with the top of the piston at TDC may be at a very different angle than where you make contact BTDC. This could dramatically affect the BTDC measurement. This said, I must acknowlege that it's working for Andy. I wonder if his pistons are flat-tops?
Richard
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They are 8.5:1 comp pistons with a flat top,luckily the rod rests on these tops and not the slope around the edges.It shouldn't work if you think about it but it does so I don't think about it!!
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I am now desparate to not think about it, but I know that as soon as my head is back form the shop I'm going to measure the plug angle and spew out a formula for compenstation, revealing an engineering obsession I could or should sometimes do without.
Richard
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Well, basic SOHCAHTOA trigonometry will enable anyone to calculate the extra length needed on a slanty rod to get the miraculous 3/8ths vertical, provided we know the angle at which the plug enters the head. Compensating for this issue is one reason I like the home-made fixed-length tool, which can be best made when engine is on bench if one can be bothered to put gasket and head on, torque it down, make tool with tip that just touches piston - domed or otherwise - when piston's in the right spot as set with the head off and measured accurately. Having said which I haven't made a precision one for an A10 yet, preferring a rod threaded down a dead plug.
Re the talk of getting adjustment on the cb end of the mag to enable fine tuning after locking the pinion, there are a few words in a few places, maybe even here, I can't remember. Anyway, it's perfectly possible to achieve minor adjustment of the cam ring in its housing, by removing the small locking screw that locates it (careful, it has a wee plug over the top of the screw head in the hole in the housing and it's hard to get out), and replacing with a larger thingy with an eccentric head which will push the notch in the cam ring a bit this way or that. A friend has done just this by drilling and tapping the hole to a larger size, and has 5 (crankshaft) degrees either way, which should be enough if one hasn't made a total ******** of setting the thing. The mag can stand that sort of variation without losing spark intensity as a result having the points open too far off optimal position of the armature. He runs a V twin, which with a mag is a sensitive beast and the palaver may have been worth it for him. For a BSA twin, with pretty long stroke and not exactly Formula 1 state of tune, I reckon it's great fun but not really worth all the hassle! Groily
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I can't believe I was able to Google "SohCahToa" and find what it means. It's been a long time since my trigonometry class, but I think I would have remembered that word if the teacher had used it as a memory cue. For example, I still honor the memory of ROY G. BIV, or GUMP (pilot for: gas, undercarriage, mixture, prop).
Richard
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I'm amazed you could find it too, Richard. Sounds more like an oriental volcano. It's just one of those dumb things I've remembered since for ever. Never even thought about it until I got an old lathe and had to start thinking about turning tapers. Then suddenly, all that school stuff started to seem relevant and I wished I'd listened. So help me if I ever want to work out the area or volume under a curve, cos that I know I can't do! And ROY B. GIV? Bill
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Colors in the visble spectrum and in a simple rainbow from longest wavelength to shortest: red, orange, yellow, green, blue, indigo, violet.
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^^ maybe my magneto lacks some orange and blue *smile* ??
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bsa-bill wrote about adjusting the magneto realtive to case. Just some quick thoughts:
With a manual advance camring one can set the ignition time at any position, so I'd believe fitting a manual advance camhousing on any mag would give possibilities for fine adjustments without having to disassemble anything. Timing can then be done by replacing the cable with some adjusting bolt\thumbwheel. One would need a way of reading some accurate TDC \ timing marks, maybe finding a way to mark the points plate position relative to the outer edge of the camplate housing...? (Or, as I always did with old cars... adjust till pinking, then back of a little :O)
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Of course - obvious when someone tells you the answer! What is '7 C in the VS?' - typical pub quiz type question. Thanks Richard.
Re using manual cam ring and housing to enable tuning from the 'other' end, it's OK up to a point, pardon the pun, but one of the reasons makers went to ATD was to make it so that the sparks always occurred at the points of max flux of the armature . . a manual cam ring messes with that. The spark weakens quite considerably the further you get away from the optimum. The effect is easily testable with a mag on the bench and a cam ring that is allowed to rotate by removing the peg; while a decent mag correctly synchronised will give you a spark that will jump 1/4 inch or more when you turn the thing by hand, as you alter the relationship between armature position and when the points open, you'll see the spark gets weaker the further out of position you go. So while a (very) few degrees is probably fine, or at least not harmful, it's definitely another of those things you can have too much of. With a manual ign system, the makers ensured mags were best synchronised at max advance, as that's where the cam ring is most of the time. Hard too believe that many early engines used the advance/retard as the sole and very inefficient means of engine speed control . . . so there has been some progress! Groily
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You are entirely right about the magneto's ' max spark' position. As I get it, the automatic advance ensures the spark always occurs at the magneto's ideal position, a manual advance moves the points opening away from the mag's max flux when retarding the ignition. With the adjusting of camring I was only thinking about the finishing fine tuning and maintenance of correct TDC advance, without having the hassle of removing timing cover and moving mag pinion\advance unit, the latter always (to me at least) seeming to involve a dash of luck to get it right when tightening up.
BTW, I have the manual advance, and end up at max retard for idling and max advance for driving, very seldom feeling any use for any intermediate positions.
e
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I reckon that's exactly and precisely it, fine tuning only, but I'm only a hobbyist!
Reason why I got interested in this was when a friend who knows far more than me broke down here in France with his Vincent Rapide (lucky man - to have a Rapide, I mean, not to break down far from home!) I got the job of trying to figure out what was wrong with it and pull the offending bits apart so he could order up and then come back when he had everything necessary. It was the mag, which had had its insulation melt internally and lock it solid.
He and I played endlessly with a rewound armature observing all these anorak things regarding points of max flux and effect of moving the cb in relation thereto. His bike has an ATD same as a latera BSA's; a Lucas KVF armature is exactly the same as a K2F in every way, what's different is the slip ring . . . and because it's a 50 degree V twin, one spark has to be delivered 25 mag armature degrees off optimal. That spark is noticeably weaker in bench testing, and explains why Vincent went to coil ignition quite early, although they didn't have the reliability of alternators to help them, just the dynamo from the good Mr Miller.
We wanted to see if things would be better with 2 sparks 12.5 degrees wrong, but that was hopeless because you can hardly get any decent spark much BEFORE point of max flux, which is what we were asking it to do on one cylinder, to allow the other to fire only 12.5 degrees AFTER. For reasons to do with Fizzix and things I don't understand, an armature is so synchronised at the factory that it delivers its spark about 3 degrees AFTER point of max flux - this lectrickery bends, it seems. While it will still deliver sparks as late as 25 degrees after, it is a poor creature at anything much before the optimal point.
Hence my diatribe about it only being feasible to play within strict limits if one wants to have a movable cam ring! Looking at that earlier post, I omitted to say that if one DID make an eccentric to engage the cam ring notch and give a bit of adjustment (which we did on this Vincent and it works brilliantly to allow minor post-setting correction), it's necessary to drill and tap the opposite side of the mag end housing, where there is a convenient spot, and put a grub screw in there. If not, the ring could start to wiggle out towards the points cover for the lack of anything to stop it.
Now, back to more mundane things in the barn, like the brakes on the wife's car . . . who said leave them be and hope for an insurance payout? Groily
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Right have now retimed the engine no pinking hurray.But first start this morning and again the left cylinder playing up %*@@****""!!!!.Wriggled the plug cap about and it starting running fine-ish again,so get to work 'borrowed' a crimp connector ring thing and wire that on,now it seems to be fine.So to recap broke carbon brush and at the same time engine mucks about so strip mag to remove brush-check,still mucks about,find plug misbehaving replace,still mucks about,find plug cap mucking about replace with crimp ring seems fine.Will let you know if dodgy spy sat in space lands on me because with my luck who can say *conf*
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And don't go under a ladder unless it's in a stocking on a leg! Groily
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Bike performed a treat on the way home tonight *smile*.I might even replace the other plug cap with a crimp connection and find a rubber boot to fit over it to make it waterproof.
Andy
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Right have now fitted the other crimp ring onto the timing side plug lead and further improvement, starts a treat and runs really well.Well pleased and rode the bike in the rain today and no damp issues.While I am on a roll I might even get given an alloy tank free of charge and a set of spitfire scrambler pipes and two reverse cones,then again I might not!!