The BSA A7-A10 Forum

Technical => Frame => Topic started by: Sunbeam on 13.11. 2011 14:41

Title: RGS headlamp shell
Post by: Sunbeam on 13.11. 2011 14:41
Can anyone tell me if the headlamp shell was different for the RGS, i.e did BSA use the Super Rocket shell for touring RGS's and a 'unique' shell for the clubman which had a QD wiring harness. Any info would be great as the shell on my bike has seen better days and I will be on the lookout for a replacement as soon as I find out what to look for.

ps. When I bought my 1962 RGS a couple of years ago, it came with a new wiring loom (colours nothing like in the Haynes manual) and it would be nice to fit a clubman shell or am I asking too much on my Christmas wish list!

Howard.

 
Title: Re: RGS headlamp shell
Post by: Pilgrim on 13.11. 2011 18:07
Hi Howard,
As far as I know all RGS's used the Gold Star headlamp which I think were
all supposed to be Q/D. From the parts books complete headlamps were part no's; 19-0543 R/H dip
and 19-0529 Vertical dip. Super Rocket was 19-0544 and 19-0558 for export. So I guess
there is a difference. Len Haggis lists a pattern Goldie part as a 19-0543. Could be worth a ring!
With a bit of luck someone might come up with more info.
Cheers.
Title: Re: RGS headlamp shell
Post by: Sunbeam on 13.11. 2011 22:00
Hi Pilgrim, thanks for the info. My bike had a rewire by a dealer before I bought it, must have crimped all bullet connectors using side cutters! Found the headlamp shell had been welded up whilst I was replacing the mag kill switch earth wire. Be nice to get a pukka shell. Did the QD plug screw to the back of the Gold Star RGS headlamp shell?

Howard.
Title: Re: RGS headlamp shell
Post by: alanp on 14.11. 2011 11:33
Not sure, but the pukka loom which I mistakenly threw away some years back because the QD 5 pin plug surrounding rubber had perished thinking it would be easy to get a replacement, didn't have any screws involved and plugged in underneath at the lower rear of the shell.
Let us know if you find a source for the headlamp and plug/socket. It is not the same as the one Triumph used on some later model or other.
Title: Re: RGS headlamp shell
Post by: a101960 on 14.11. 2011 12:06
The last person that I know of that actually stocked these items was George Prew. This is his wiring harness. I have no idea if he still has this item for sale.(http://)
I know that Ace Classics can build a plug in loom.

Ace Classics London (Tiger parts)
101 - 103 St Mildreds Road
Lee, London SE12 0RL
020 8698 4273.

ace_classics@lineone.net


Ace classics are Triumph dealers so I cannot be sure if the loom would have the same fittings as the RGS/Goldie loom. The price when I enquired was £80 + £10 P&P. I have searched extensively through many catalogues, and the internet but have never found anyone that stocks the correct plug and socket (that is all that is needed to convert the wiring harness). I have more or less given up hope.

John
Title: Re: RGS headlamp shell
Post by: Pilgrim on 14.11. 2011 13:36
Hi Howard.
The attached should be of interest to you. It's from the Britbike forum (Google it).
I could only get a screenshot, my computer skills wouldn't allow me to do it properly!!
Hope it helps.
Cheers.
Title: Re: RGS headlamp shell
Post by: a101960 on 14.11. 2011 13:53
Here is the whole Goldstar/RGS headlamp assembly. http://www.ebay.ph/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270778679397 Note the price that it went for!

John
Title: Re: RGS headlamp shell
Post by: alanp on 14.11. 2011 13:59
First photos I've seen. Brings tears to my eyes when I remember what I threw away.
Title: Re: RGS headlamp shell
Post by: a101960 on 14.11. 2011 14:35
Quote
Brings tears to my eyes when I remember what I threw away.

Alan, I think all of us have similar regrets. As a matter of interest both the correct Goldstar/Rgs switch and plate are still readily available. Now that I have seen how the QD lamp set up is configured I think I will investigate the Ace classics loom more closely. This is what they say on their website "Early replica parts on offer range from QD Wiring Loom for 1949 TR5, '60-62' pre-unit TR6 and T120. This loom was also to be found on the Gold Star BSA, Rocket Gold Star and many other competition machines of the period including the AJS marque." Can anyone confirm weather the the looms are the same?

John
Title: Re: RGS headlamp shell
Post by: Sunbeam on 14.11. 2011 14:49
Thanks Pilgrim, alan, John, for sending me this info, now I will know what to look for if I ever come across one. Wonder if the shell and actually sold for £350 on ebay? Suppose good point to start looking is auto jumbles. I know 'AUTOSPARKS' make up wiring looms to order and have used them numerous times for other electrical parts, so will try them if ACE CLASSICS can't deliver and I happen to locate the correct headlamp shell....(and it will probably come complete with hens teeth!)

Thanks again

Howard.
Title: Re: RGS headlamp shell
Post by: a101960 on 14.11. 2011 15:37
Sunbeam, It is apparent from those photographs that there is nothing special about the headlamp shell. Indeed George Prew told me that all one needed to do was to cut a hole in the bottom of the shell to accomadate the socket, and also to change the  light switch and switch plate. The ammeter will not need changing it is the same. The dip switch wiring is not part of the QD plug and socket set up as can be seen by refering to the photographs on the ebay page. The dip switch is connected by bullet connectors.

John
Title: Re: RGS headlamp shell
Post by: alanp on 14.11. 2011 15:45
I'm missing something here John. What do you mean by changing the light switch and switch plate?
Alan
Title: Re: RGS headlamp shell
Post by: Sunbeam on 14.11. 2011 16:30
Thanks John. Yes I agree, could make hole for QD socket in bottom of shell. From photo, it does look like the dip switch / horn / magneto kill button wiring is still taken through bottom of shell.

Howard.
Title: Re: RGS headlamp shell
Post by: a101960 on 14.11. 2011 16:33
Alan, the light switch that is supplied by default with all the headlamps that are widely on sale is type U-39.(http://)(image sw.ipg) The correct type for the Goldstar/RGS is in fact type 41-SA(http://)(image goldstarsw.jpg). The plate shown with switch type 41-SA (image swplte.jpg) is not normally supplied as part of the switch and usually has to be purchased seperately. (http://) The change is only for the sake of appearance there is no difference in function. It depends on how much attention to detail you want to pay. The SA-41 switch is the same as that fitted to the later A10's.

John
Title: Re: RGS headlamp shell
Post by: trevinoz on 14.11. 2011 21:03
Consequently the ammeter/switch plate doesn't have the odd shaped cut-out for the U39 switch but a "D" shaped hole.

   Trev.
Title: Re: RGS headlamp shell
Post by: trevinoz on 14.11. 2011 22:30
Here is one from the shelf which will go onto my RGS eventually, if I can find the elusive plug.
Rumours say that the plug is the same as fitted to the series 1 Landrover tailgate but they are few and far between these days.
If you look at the shell, you will see that the socket position is flattened with a large diameter hole and 4 radial slots for the securing screws.
Inside is a circular plate with a large hole in the centre and 4 holes for the screws.

  Trev.
Title: Re: RGS headlamp shell
Post by: Sunbeam on 14.11. 2011 23:08
Thanks for posting the photos Trev. Did the shell come with your bike?

Howard.
Title: Re: RGS headlamp shell
Post by: trevinoz on 15.11. 2011 02:07
No, Howard, the bike was smashed in about 1967 and an ordinary shell was fitted.
I have had the bike since 1971 and know some of its history, probably most of it. It was one of 2 or 3 sold locally.
I came across the shell in a dealers shed and paid too much for it but they are pretty rare.
I think that the Triumph TR6 used this shell along with the Goldie and probably some others.

  Trev.
Title: Re: RGS headlamp shell
Post by: Sunbeam on 17.11. 2011 00:52
Hi Trev, thanks for the info. Going to keep a lookout in ebay and magazine ads for a headlamp shell. Think it a bit of a long shot though.
I'll check out the TR6 headlamp as a possible, but may end up using a standard shell and cutting a hole in the bottom like John suggested.

Howard.
Title: Re: RGS headlamp shell
Post by: kiwipom on 17.11. 2011 09:37
hi guys, found this bit of info about headlight wiring,cheers,Bob

The Gold Star 500cc DBD34 and its smaller brother, the 350cc DBD32, were in great demand as a road bikes for the ton-up boys. The factory sold them complete with a plug-in wiring harness so you could remove the headlight to race it at weekends, then refit your lights and head off to the café for some more posing.
Title: Re: RGS headlamp shell
Post by: Sunbeam on 17.11. 2011 15:10
Thanks Bob and also to the other forum topic contributors. I'll let you all know of my search for the holy grail!

Howard.
Title: Re: RGS headlamp shell
Post by: Taffy on 17.11. 2011 23:31
Hi Trev,Ive not been on here for a while but i do have a QD headlight and brand new loom (front part with the plug) original lucas top to tail with the rare lucas "cats eye" lucas logo lense .Bolt on and go condition.Doubt ill use it but its obviously quite desireable.If you have lots of non sequential unmarked twenties let me know Taff 
Title: Re: RGS headlamp shell
Post by: trevinoz on 18.11. 2011 00:23
G'day Taff,
                        I'll just go and print a few, probably need to be hundreds for that!
I only need the plug and will be right.
I have seen the loom only go for ridiculous sums! [with plug]

  Trev.
Title: Re: RGS headlamp shell
Post by: a101960 on 18.11. 2011 10:49
I have toyed with the idea of fitting a QD headlamp, and I can understand why people may wish to do so for the sake of authenicity, but there are potential problems that could arise. All connectors are liable to suffer from the effects of corrosion (bullet connectors in particular) and the plug and socket are only a push fit conection. Given that the dip/kill/horn connection is not via the plug and socket but is via individual bullet connectors the set up is not really truly QD. My experience of bullet connectors is that they are troublesome and that they do not like being disturbed. The bikes that were sold in touring trim were never fitted with the QD set up. In my opinion a QD set up is just one more source of potential trouble due the ingress of moisture and the fact that you are making joints in the wiring harness that are not absolutely essential. Even the headlamp socket does not have a water resistant barrier. I am not saying do not fit a QD headlamp, but just be mindful of the added potential for problems that it could introduce. Motorcycle electrics are not the best thought out wiring systems. Maybe it is best to leave well alone?

John
Title: Re: RGS headlamp shell
Post by: trevinoz on 19.11. 2011 05:11
John,
          I don't think you are correct in stating that the touring RGS didn't have a QD headlight.
If you look at the road test from 1962 the plug can be seen and the bike is a tourer.


  Trev.
Title: Re: RGS headlamp shell
Post by: Taffy on 19.11. 2011 09:46
Hi, in real life electrics/electronics is a weak point and as made by prince Joe of darkness some forty plus years back will certainly make life interesting.As initially stated QD was probably the simplest method at the time to whip a headlight off and reatach,quite an elegant solution for the time.Nowadays our RGS`s are not often driven to the track on the weekend and to work all week in fact probably rarely at night or in rain,so a QD setup is as much about decoration as function.
  Taff
Title: Re: RGS headlamp shell
Post by: a101960 on 19.11. 2011 18:07
Quote
I don't think you are correct in stating that the touring RGS didn't have a QD headlight.
If you look at the road test from 1962 the plug can be seen and the bike is a tourer.
Trev, well spotted! You are quite right. A close study of the 1962 road test photograph does indeed reveal a QD headlamp as being fitted, and the featured bike is definately a tourer because it is not fitted with rear sets. I had never looked closely at that photograph before. Well done mate. I made that statement on the basis of information published in a magazine article on how to spot a fake RGS (written by by a supposedly noted RGS expert). Interestingly there is no mention of the headlamp or wiring harness in the RGS parts list of April 1962.

On the more general topic of parts and fittings, in the Gold Star parts list that I have for example, there is no mention of a QD headlamp. Two headlamps are listed with the part numbers 19-543 (R/H dip) and 19-529 (vertical dip) and the illustration shows the U39 switch as being fitted. In the real world I have seen Gold Stars in Clubmans trim fitted with QD headlamps and with non QD headlamps, and Gold Star tourers also equiped with both QD and non QD headlamps. None of them that I have seen have ever had the U39 lighting switch fitted they have always been fitted with the 41-SA type. The reasons for this are probally because people have fitted whatever was available or what was affordable. Who knows? For reasons unknown BSA choose to use the the same illustration even though it might not depict the actual part described in the part list. Misleading information can arise due to many reasons, and that is one of them. All anyone can do is to research as thouroghly as they can. Even then it is possible to get it wrong.

Taff, I agree that many of the weaknesses in the QD design in this day and age are not that important, and although a few were raced all those years ago most were not. The QD headlamp facility was more likely to have been added as a "go faster" option rather than any serious attempt to make the bike a out and out sportser. Of one thing we can all be sure. No matter how hard we try to get our bikes right, there will always be somebody that wants to find fault.

John
Title: Re: RGS headlamp shell
Post by: a101960 on 10.04. 2012 10:38
(http://)
For those who might be interested. The QD headlamp plug and socket is now available from Tri Cor. tricorengland@gmail.com (44) 01432 820752. The part number is RS123 and it costs £35 + p&p

John