The BSA A7-A10 Forum

Technical => A7 & A10 Engine => Topic started by: bikemadinspain on 10.02. 2013 16:02

Title: What am I forgetting?
Post by: bikemadinspain on 10.02. 2013 16:02
Hi all, I am still havin problems with stripping the engine down, I have removed all gear box blots and all inner casing bolts, I have tried tapping with a mallet, heat and cold and still  no joy, could u please look at the attached pics and c if I am sill missing something.

 I am trying to add more pics but they are apparently to big, I will try and add more pics as a reply later, cheers
Title: Re: What am I forgetting?
Post by: a10gf on 10.02. 2013 17:12
offtopic
Quote
as I have no idea what its on about
That's why the 600k restriction is in place  *smile* to avoid the attempts at posting pictures that are 4 meters wide and 3 meters high, and kills the server or the users' internet line when someone tries to view them. Do some research about resize of pictures, or set your camera to take picture in an appropriate size for on-screen use, try something like 800 x 600. btw, resizing is just a few clicks in any photo program (f.ex. using the recommended Photofiltre). Alt, test out some photo hosting website, they provide automatic tools to make photos useable for forums & viewing on-screen.
Title: Re: What am I forgetting?
Post by: a10gf on 10.02. 2013 17:17
About splitting (after having made sure all retaining bolts etc are out) I use a blade and gently tap it in (a very small depth) all around. And remember, it's not for cutting into the casting, but for separating!


Edit: It's a very small hammer actually (picture makes it look dramatic :O) and used for very light and precise taps.
Title: Re: What am I forgetting?
Post by: bsa-bill on 10.02. 2013 17:24
I'm not familiar with the A10s with bolt on gearbox's but looking at your pics I would say the gearbox has to come off before you can split the engine, someone here will know for sure
Title: Re: What am I forgetting?
Post by: a10gf on 10.02. 2013 17:37
I am assuming you've removed the gearbox !? If not, see picture.
Title: Re: What am I forgetting?
Post by: bikemadinspain on 10.02. 2013 18:38
I have unbolted the two bolts and two nuts retaining the gearbox and the gearbox is loose, however, will not come away due to the shaft still being through the outer casing. I will try the blade beween the gap in the morning. Many thanks 
Title: Re: What am I forgetting?
Post by: muskrat on 10.02. 2013 18:43
 OK I can see your prob. The two studs at the bottom must come out (mine has bolts in all four). With the gear box still intact it slides off to the right. If you can't get the studs out you will need to pull the mainshaft out of the gear box to take it off the studs. (remove the studs).
Cheers
Title: Re: What am I forgetting?
Post by: muskrat on 10.02. 2013 18:46
A10GF, a CLAW hammer ??? *eek* spose better than a brick. LOL
Title: Re: What am I forgetting?
Post by: bikerbob on 10.02. 2013 19:23
Just been reading Roy Bacon's book on the BSA Twins and according to him before you can split the crankcases the gearbox has to be removed first. Never had semi unit twin but looking at the first photo will that steel collar around the gearbox main shaft not come off so giving you clearance to remove the gearbox.
Title: Re: What am I forgetting?
Post by: trevinoz on 10.02. 2013 19:36
It's a rivetted on seal retainer, Bob.
Gearbox has to come off.
Title: Re: What am I forgetting?
Post by: a10gf on 10.02. 2013 19:36
muskrat wrote
Quote
a CLAW hammer
It's a very small hammer, picture makes it look out of proportion.
But anything goes, as long as it is used with some wit and as recommended:
Quote
...gently tap...
Title: Re: What am I forgetting?
Post by: bsa-bill on 10.02. 2013 20:18
 a small tap with a large hammer is better than many full welts with a small one - Confucius  (well no - I lie it was an old blacksmith I once knew)
Title: Re: What am I forgetting?
Post by: chaterlea25 on 10.02. 2013 20:53
Hi,
NO BLADES or HAMMERS REQUIRED  *eek* *eek* *eek* *eek* *eek*


Regards
John
Title: Re: What am I forgetting?
Post by: a10gf on 10.02. 2013 21:17
Quote
NO BLADES or HAMMERS REQUIRED
*smile* many opinions on this, if some items comes apart easily, then of course no need, if it's old gasket material or it's corroded or whatever, I use the thin blade method to gently break the bond with a blade and few light taps all around. Zero damage to parts, zero problems, always works fine.

Seeing what some have done to mating surfaces using screwdrivers, knives etc + brute force... the blade method does no damage and leaves no traces. Of course, use patience and gentle taps, not force. And I guess someone may make a mess of it if not careful and patient.
Title: Re: What am I forgetting?
Post by: bsa-bill on 10.02. 2013 21:31
yep I use a blade too, if inserted on a curve mid blade it's a safe method, however for crankcases if barrels are off then clamps ( top and bottom (sump)) of the type you can reverse are good. just a wee bit of pressure and a tap and they split
Title: Re: What am I forgetting?
Post by: trevinoz on 10.02. 2013 22:42
How about just grabbing the case and giving the whole assembly a good downward whack against a block of wood.
That is with the drive shaft contacting the timber.
It may take a couple of hits but should work.
Only for those strong enough to lift the works!  *smile*

Trev.
Title: Re: What am I forgetting?
Post by: muskrat on 11.02. 2013 08:12
Back on topic. As stated the gearbox must be removed before the cases can be split. To remove it without dis-assembly the bottom studs must come out to be able to slide the gearbox out to the right. The only other way is to dis-assemble the gearbox and remove the mainshaft. The box will then come off the studs. Been a long time since I've done it.
Cheers
The A50/65's can be split with the gearbox intact.
Title: Re: What am I forgetting?
Post by: bsa-bill on 11.02. 2013 09:23
Quote
It's a riveted on seal retaine

can this not be removed somehow and made removable or put back, seems like it must be put on after the gearbox is fitted, wouldn't this be the way BSA assembled tem
Title: Re: What am I forgetting?
Post by: bikemadinspain on 11.02. 2013 10:48
Ok, just had a go with a fine blade, the cases are separating via the blade but I still cannot see how this casing can come apart with the gearbox connected. Surely I do not have to totally dissasemble a gearbox to separate an engine!!!

Personal for a10gf, initially read your post and thought here we go a computer geek giving me advice about a topic I have no idea about, then for a change I concidered it, then I read the instructions for my camers (I have owned it 11 years) and low and behold I now know what you are on about. I have reduced my pixel size and ta dah, u should see what I can now do with my camera its fliipin great!!
Many thanks

PPS: Just read Muskrats post now off to tackle the studs.... cheers

 
Title: Re: What am I forgetting?
Post by: bsa-bill on 11.02. 2013 11:38
Quote
To remove it without dis-assembly the bottom studs must come out to be able to slide the gearbox out to the right.

DOH  remove studs, why did I not see that - I must be getting old, no  I am old just not thinking out of the box (did you see what I did there)
Title: Re: What am I forgetting?
Post by: bsa-bill on 11.02. 2013 11:42
Quote
To remove it without dis-assembly the bottom studs must come out to be able to slide the gearbox out to the right.

DOH  remove studs, why did I not see that - I must be getting old, no  I am old just not thinking out of the box (did you see what I did there)


let us know what you find in there
Title: Re: What am I forgetting?
Post by: muskrat on 11.02. 2013 12:06
 And 9 times out of 10 the studs are replaced with bolts  ;)
Cheers
Title: Re: What am I forgetting?
Post by: a10gf on 11.02. 2013 13:31
As shown in http://a7a10.net/forum/index.php/topic,6692.msg46393.html#msg46393 you must *ex* remove the gearbox, that's why I posted the picture showing the 2x crankcase studs\nuts behind it, of course do not try anything before those are removed.

About the gearbox shaft, here it can glide trough the seal, with a little wriggling and oil, no problem, but be careful to not damage the seal with edge of the splines. When the seal was changed some time ago, I replaced rivets with small bolts\nuts.

offtopic
Congrats++ about the picture, 640x480 does the job, some larger sizes works as well, like 800x* or 1024x*
Title: Re: What am I forgetting?
Post by: bikemadinspain on 11.02. 2013 15:54
OK, studs out, final two bolts out, case split no problem, now how do I get that final spindle off the end of the cranksahaft to separate the crankshaft and flywheels from the final casing?   I am on the last fence I think!!!
Title: Re: What am I forgetting?
Post by: a10gf on 11.02. 2013 16:13
The shaft pinion? Needs a suitable puller + maybe heat, patience, care etc
Title: Re: What am I forgetting?
Post by: muskrat on 11.02. 2013 18:24
 Looking at yesterdays picture the inner timing cover was still on. 4 screws gets it off, the idler gear and shaft may come with it. Put the idler gear back into the gear train and use a nylon or timber wedge between gears to remove the cam shaft nut. The lock nut and worm gear on the crank shaft are LEFT HAND thread, remove these and the 3 nuts for the oil pump. Now you get to the pinion that a10gf has pictured. Remove the idler gear and use pullers to get the cam and crank pinions off. Do not try to force the shafts through the pinions as the bushes will suffer.
I normally do all that before I get the motor out of the frame.
Cheers
Title: Re: What am I forgetting?
Post by: bikemadinspain on 11.02. 2013 20:01
Unforytunatly I fell at the next fence, question one, how do I get past the key on the camshaft and pic two with the last small wheel (technical term) any other way to get it off other than a puller?

PS: Thank god this forum exists......

Title: Re: What am I forgetting?
Post by: trevinoz on 11.02. 2013 20:22
Remove the key, give it a tap at the inner end with a pin punch and the outer end will raise.
A screwdriver and small hammer will knock it up and out.
The pinion can be removed with two screw drivers carefully wedged behind it in most cases.
If not, a puller is required.
I have never used a puller on this pinion.

Trev.
Title: Re: What am I forgetting?
Post by: bsa-bill on 11.02. 2013 22:35
Quote
I have never used a puller on this pinion

Me neither, small pry bar behind and a gentle tap with the plastic hammer usually pops off
Title: Re: What am I forgetting?
Post by: a10gf on 12.02. 2013 14:53
any other way to get it off other than a puller?
PS: Thank god this forum exists......
About the forum, topics like this one are the exact goal & motivation for the very existence of the forum.

As others suggested, try without, but careful not to damage anything. Am using a puller (which I machined to fit the job, and the pinion is made to use a puller > the slots), works fine (using the puller + heating & some light taps), it's a damn tight fit here.

Title: Re: What am I forgetting?
Post by: bsa-bill on 12.02. 2013 15:14
considering everything timing, lubricating and spark related relies on this little gear on it's taper and small key it's comforting to know it's a tight fit, or it would be if it was but with both my bikes it came off easy, however both have done sufficient miles by now that I'm happy, tapers are wonderful way to transfer drive it seems
Title: Re: What am I forgetting?
Post by: Topdad on 12.02. 2013 16:59
I've also never used a puller to remove the crank cog ,when I stripping my motor after 25 odd years of playing with BSA's I wanted to do everything "by the book "and phoned SRM they said use a couple of screw drivers gently prising off worked fine and on every occasion since , regards  Bobh
Title: Re: What am I forgetting?
Post by: bikemadinspain on 12.02. 2013 18:56
Thanks to all your fantasic help and advice the engine now looks like this>>>>>





I have already cleaned all the parts, yuk,,, and have a list of parts required i.e, new crancase oil seal, when I change the studs over to bolts, and the seal is a bit iffy anyway.. New crancase breather washer, any ideas what size I need, engine is a 51 model if that helps, new clutch springs, 3 x clutch adjusting nuts that had worked loose and worn away, posssibly the clutch plates, not yet checked the dimesions and a couple of aluminium repairs to the crancase (not me i mighnt add).

Once again thanks for all the fantastic advice I would really be lost without this forum,.

Oh yes one final question, any suggestions on what I should change as a matter of course or would concider updating whilst it is all apart? 
Title: Re: What am I forgetting?
Post by: muskrat on 12.02. 2013 19:20
G'day mate. Now that you have seen what a bugger of a job it is, replace anything that is even the smallest bit worn. Front sprocket & seal, clutch seal, big ends & main bearings & seal. Check cam shaft bushings. And clean out sludge trap and replace the oil way ball & spring under the screw near the main bush.
Best of luck, help is only a mouse click away.
Cheers
Title: Re: What am I forgetting?
Post by: bsa-bill on 12.02. 2013 20:26
it all looks nicely organised in there, Yep take Musky's advise do what needs done, leads to peaceful state of mind and ride