The BSA A7-A10 Forum

Technical => A7 & A10 Engine => Topic started by: ShaunMac on 21.02. 2013 21:47

Title: Engine oil?
Post by: ShaunMac on 21.02. 2013 21:47
One quick question?

My brother has had the bike drained of oil for a while. Any advice on best engine oil and how to get it round the engine prior to running?

Thanks.
Title: Re: Engine oil?
Post by: bsa-bill on 21.02. 2013 22:21
OOOOH more opinions on oil than there are As on the road, not to worry though practically any new oil will be fine, by new I mean modern just new out of the tin 20/50 or classic 40 for normal temperatures.
Probably best shy away from some of the more exotic 10/50 or full syntetics but many use them without issue, you probably will not get much in the way of benefit by spending lots on expensive oil - the biggy is to change it often every 1000 miles some stretch it to 2000 but that's after a full engine strip down and cleaning of the sludge trap.

circulate oil by using the kickstart, this is done after an engine strip when all oilways are dry, normal oil change does not need this but will leave a little dirty oil in there, if that worries you then put some cheap oil in, start  and run the engine for a while then drain and change it again, but it wont be long until the new oil is black again as these older designed engines do allow carbon (soot) to get into the oil.
Many (myself included ) fit return line filters these work fine with a 20/50, the oil carries the carbon around to the filter where it hopefully lives until you change the filter
Title: Re: Engine oil?
Post by: KiwiGF on 21.02. 2013 23:20
Shaun you can take the plugs out to make spinning the engine easier, also you can remove the pressure release valve then spin it (ask if you don't know where the PRV is) and replace it once you see oil is getting to that, you can also continue to spin the engine using the kickstart until you see oil returning into the oil tank, but there's no need to do that if you can see oil at the PRV - in my opinion - as once the engine is running you can check the return to the tank.

I say all this as if the engine has not run for a while and was drained completely, it would be wise to make sure the oil pump is getting oil to the big ends etc BEFORE starting it, using the above method.
Title: Re: Engine oil?
Post by: chaterlea25 on 21.02. 2013 23:43
Hi Shaun,
Welcome to the Forum,
Any non detergent or low detergent oil will be fine, opt for one of the "classic" types either 20/50 or straight 40

I feel its a right pain kicking and kicking to get the oil circulating, doesnt do the mechanism any good either
remove the plugs and short the leads out to the engine to avoid stressing the magneto
I fill with oil the night before If I can to give time for it to make its way down to the pump etc
then push it in gear up and down the road til the oil returns,
 (a set of starting rollers is next on my list  *idea*)

Also check the gearbox oil and primary case levels, a lot of owners use ATF in the primary, I use motorcycle oil for 4 stroke engines 10/40 as this is designed for wet clutches
SAE 40 or ordinary gear oil in the gearbox

Good Luck with it !!
John

Title: Re: Engine oil?
Post by: A10Boy on 22.02. 2013 15:32
Hi
Do you know for sure it was drained out, and it's not just ended up in the sump?

Good luck
Title: Re: Engine oil?
Post by: ShaunMac on 22.02. 2013 16:46
Yes, he told me he had drained it as it was leaking out just sitting there.

Cheers, Shaun
Title: Re: Engine oil?
Post by: muskrat on 22.02. 2013 19:34
G'day Shaun. I'd drop the sump plate off to 1 check the sumps not full and to clean the screen. Also the screen in the oil tank, and flush the lines.
Removing the OPRV is the best way to see oil is getting there and clean it while it's out.
Do not use synthetic oil. Modern 20/50 if you have an inline (spin on) filter or straight 40 if not.
Bike on center stand, plugs out, 2nd or 3rd gear, spin wheel by hand.
Cheers
Title: Re: Engine oil?
Post by: Triton Thrasher on 22.02. 2013 20:39
Quote
non detergent or low detergent oil


Do not use synthetic oil. Modern 20/50 if you have an inline (spin on) filter or straight 40 if not.

Is it safe to ask "Why?" to all those points? Why no or low detergent? Do you think it washes your engine the way Fairy Liquid and a dish mop washes your pans?

Why not synthetic? It's worked in my Triumph for a long time. Does it dissolve BSA twins?

What is the interdependence of multigrade (or not) and filters?

Answers founded in first hand observations, please.

Now it's an oil thread!
Title: Re: Engine oil?
Post by: metalflake11 on 22.02. 2013 21:06
None or low detergent so you don't dissolve the crud in the sludge trap etc, and send it through the engine.
Multigrade holds particles untill it is filtered out, so you need a filter.
Monograde releases particles as soon as it can, sump plate, bottom of oil tank and sludge trap.
 Rob.
Title: Re: Engine oil?
Post by: bsa-bill on 22.02. 2013 21:12
1. your A10 has a sludge trap incorporated in the crank, particles of carbon in the oil get flung out by centrifugal force to the outside of the trap where they stick and stay. a detergent oil is designed to carry these carbon bits suspended in the oil to be taken out by a filter so you can use detergent if you fit a filter, AND have stripped the engine and cleaned out the sludge trap first.

2. I would use a synthetic and do use 20/50, synthetic is damn good stuff but extremely pricey, some say of 20/50 and multi grades that roller bearings break
them down (it doesn't in cars so why bikes) but changing the oil every 1000/1500 negates most arguments, small milage oil changing means cost comes into it, the first 20'50 BTW (Dukhams) was invented for air-cooled engines - bikes, way back early sixties.

All in all you'd be hard pushed to find any engine oil these days that would harm your engine provide you remember to change it often
Title: Re: Engine oil?
Post by: Triton Thrasher on 22.02. 2013 21:36
dissolve the crud in the sludge trap etc, and send it through the engine.

Did you sort of surmise that all that would happen,  because of the word "detergent?"



Quote
Multigrade holds particles untill it is filtered out, so you need a filter.
Monograde releases particles as soon as it can, sump plate, bottom of oil tank and sludge trap.
 Rob.

How on Earth can you know that monograde doesn't carry particles the very short distance to the filter?

What on Earth stops the centrifugal sludge trap catching particles in multigrade oil?

Have you guys observed the effects you are vaunting? If not, what are your references and have they observed these strange effects?
Title: Re: Engine oil?
Post by: bsa-bill on 22.02. 2013 22:30
Quote
strange effects?

think they call it Physics these days
Title: Re: Engine oil?
Post by: metalflake11 on 22.02. 2013 23:23
Read the spec on monograde oils, it is produced/designed NOT to carry particles. It will carry it a short distance, but the bike is designed to rid it of them before it starts a fresh cycle
Multigrade would be effected by centrifugal force, but it is more likely to hold on to some particles due to its inherant design function......Hence the need for a filter.
I haven't observed it, how could you? Somewhere down the line you have to take oil companies at their word as regards to how their different oils work. Roughly, I have ran the same engine for 10 years on multigrade without a filter- 2 engine bottom end re-builds. 10 years WITH a filter- 1 bottom end re-build. Straight oil and no filter for 14 years and no bottom end problems at all. I must quantify that with the fact S.R.M. did the bottom end last time, and also did the end feed conversion.
Finally detergent oil is so called because it does contain a detergent, it cleans the engine.
                          Rob.
Title: Re: Engine oil?
Post by: muskrat on 23.02. 2013 00:05
Next time you change the oil in the car use diesel oil (high detergent) and see how long the motor lasts  *eek*.
Do not mix synthetic with mineral oil. Changing the oil will mix the amount left in there (about 1/3Lt) with the synthetic.
Cheers
Title: Re: Engine oil?
Post by: Triton Thrasher on 23.02. 2013 08:47
Next time you change the oil in the car use diesel oil (high detergent) and see how long the motor lasts  *eek*.
I've done that, on quite a large scale, when working for a haulage company.


Quote
Do not mix synthetic with mineral oil.

I've done that several times, through oil changes and topping up with what's available, when far from home.


Quote
Changing the oil will mix the amount left in there (about 1/3Lt) with the synthetic.
Cheers

In the case of my non-BSA twin, it's about 200cc.
Title: Re: Engine oil?
Post by: Triton Thrasher on 23.02. 2013 09:02
Read the spec on monograde oils, it is produced/designed NOT to carry particles. It will carry it a short distance, but the bike is designed to rid it of them before it starts a fresh cycle
Multigrade would be effected by centrifugal force, but it is more likely to hold on to some particles due to its inherant design function......Hence the need for a filter.

Oil being mono or multigrade shouldn't be directly related to detergent content. Am I right in thinking there was detergent in oil many years ago, when these old bikes were still being built?

Do you suggest that monograde oil will not "carry particles" the few inches to a filter, but will carry them right round the system to the sludge trap, or am I misreading?

Quote
Roughly, I have ran the same engine for 10 years on multigrade without a filter- 2 engine bottom end re-builds. 10 years WITH a filter- 1 bottom end re-build. Straight oil and no filter for 14 years and no bottom end problems at all. I must quantify that with the fact S.R.M. did the bottom end last time, and also did the end feed conversion.
I don't think anyone would say filters are a bad thing, or deny that an end-feed conversion can extend crank life.

Title: Re: Engine oil?
Post by: bsa-bill on 23.02. 2013 10:54
Quote
Am I right in thinking there was detergent in oil many years ago, when these old bikes were still being built?

Yes - as has been said already oil for diesel engines was/is high in detergent, I flushed my 61 Flash with it (around 63) it then wet sump'd, not saying the oil caused it but it hadn't done it before and never did it again

Quote
Do you suggest that monograde oil will not "carry particles" the few inches to a filter, but will carry them right round the system to the sludge trap, or am I misreading?

the sludge trap would take out some of the crud some of the time the rest carried on back to the tank where some more of the crud would some of the time settle out at the bottom of the tank.
Not a very precise system but coupled with frequent oil changes more than adequate for the use that most of the bikes BSA sold were used for - short journey to work and back

Quote
or deny that an end-feed conversion can extend crank life.
Given the age of most of our bikes you could well argue the original crank lubeing set up is good enough, SRM's excellent end feed maybe a good thing for large mileage riders for many of us though it's a pity SRM couldn't come up with something to extend the riders crank life *smiley4*
Title: Re: Engine oil?
Post by: Triton Thrasher on 23.02. 2013 11:05

Quote

Given the age of most of our bikes you could well argue the original crank lubeing set up is good enough, SRM's excellent end feed maybe a good thing for large mileage riders for many of us though it's a pity SRM couldn't come up with something to extend the riders crank life *smiley4*

Yeah, I think the conversions may be more relevant to Unit twins.
Title: Re: Engine oil?
Post by: metalflake11 on 23.02. 2013 14:34
I don't think anyone would say filters are a bad thing, or deny that an end-feed conversion can extend crank life.


 S.R.M. would. In fact, using any kind of of filter, or use of multigrade oil will invalidate the guarantee.
Yes, you did misread my post. The part of my post you quoted says 'it will carry particles for short ditances.'  The highest mileage and longest period of time wthout trouble has been without using a filter and monograde 40's.
 I don't bang a drum for any choice of oils or filter use or not, it's their bike and they can run it on what they like. But, when an established firm who have built thousands of engines and guarantee their work tell me something, I listen up. The filter is still fitted to mine but no longer connected to the oil supply, it would take minutes to plumb it in but 10,000's of thousands of miles following their advise to the letter stops me doing it.
                        Rob
Title: Re: Engine oil?
Post by: Triton Thrasher on 23.02. 2013 14:45

 S.R.M. would. In fact, using any kind of of filter, or use of multigrade oil will invalidate the guarantee.

Well, when SRM explain what's wrong with filters and/or multigrade, I might pay them some attention.
Title: Re: Engine oil?
Post by: ShaunMac on 23.02. 2013 15:40
Thanks everyone. Safe to say that their's quite a few varying opinions on oil!  *smile*
Cheers,
ShaunMac
Title: Re: Engine oil?
Post by: metalflake11 on 23.02. 2013 17:20
There is Shaun, but few on here would suggest anything but none/low detergent multigrade with a filter or straight 40's without. That's it in a nutshell, so take your pick.