The BSA A7-A10 Forum

Technical => A7 & A10 Engine => Topic started by: huddie on 09.03. 2013 11:58

Title: Oil return on start up after rebuild
Post by: huddie on 09.03. 2013 11:58
Hi All, just fired up my A10 after rebuild due to it having dropped a crank thrust washer. How long should it run before I start to see bubbles back in the oil tank. I have only run it twice so far, first time for about 10 seconds second time about 20 seconds cooling down between these starts, sort of heat slaving it I guess. I have a clear tube in the feed to the rockers and a few bubbles have appeared in that but not a full flow.
Just thought I would check, rather be safe than sorry after all the time/expense of a rebuild. Oh! just remembered I did bleed the oil pump by loosening the pressure release until the oil flowed, so how long then folks before the bubbles appear in the oil tank.
Regards Huddie
Title: Re: Oil return on start up after rebuild
Post by: bsa-bill on 09.03. 2013 12:17
Hi Huddie
I kick mine over with the plugs out for a while before firing it up, oil wont return immediately as it has to drain down into the bottom of the crankcase and up to the return pipe,
a shortcut is to get some oil in the sump while building it up, I pour some down the pushrod tunnel it seeps down fills the cam throgh and overflows into the sump,
As yours has run for thirty seconds in all I'd think oil had got to it's important little places but I'd still give it a kick over with plugs out until I saw some oil return
Title: Re: Oil return on start up after rebuild
Post by: huddie on 09.03. 2013 12:29
Hi Bill, Thanks for that. I will give it a go on the kick start, plugs out, as you suggest. I guess I was thinking that just on the kick start there wouldn't be enough flow to get all the way back to the oil tank but I will try it and see what happens.
Regards Huddie
Title: Re: Oil return on start up after rebuild
Post by: stu.andrews on 09.03. 2013 15:54
Take the plugs out. Earth them on the cylinder head & put in 2nd or 3rd gear. Take the bike walkies- no strain on any moving parts & the oil return should soon be visible.
Title: Re: Oil return on start up after rebuild
Post by: a10gf on 09.03. 2013 15:56
Quote
Take the plugs out. Earth them on the cylinder head & put in 2nd or 3rd gear. Take the bike walkies- no strain on any moving parts & the oil return should soon be visible.
Good tip ++
Title: Re: Oil return on start up after rebuild
Post by: bsa-bill on 09.03. 2013 16:05
Quote
Take the bike walkies- no strain on any moving parts

Yes good advise stu.andrews, if I lived somewhere flat I'd follow it, unfortunately although the gradient around my place is not severe it would put a strain on  My moving parts *smiley4*
Title: Re: Oil return on start up after rebuild
Post by: huddie on 09.03. 2013 16:59
Yea I tried bill's idea that worked, thanks. When I next started it though, just for 30 second,s the return oil flow was less than when I was kicking it over why would that be?. Stu's idea is fine but at my age not really an option.
Any tips on running in how fast for how long etc.
Regards Huddie
Title: Re: Oil return on start up after rebuild
Post by: Goldy on 09.03. 2013 17:10
Some years ago forum member Manosound  filmed the oil return to tank on his A10. Go to YouTube and type in BSA A10 oil return to tank and you will find it.
Title: Re: Oil return on start up after rebuild
Post by: metalflake11 on 09.03. 2013 18:00
This might be of help
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfJ2zigEbqo
Title: Re: Oil return on start up after rebuild
Post by: stu.andrews on 10.03. 2013 10:30
No strict revs or road speed for running in. Just let the engine run without high revs & definitely do not labour the engine. Plenty of gear changing so the engine runs & sounds sweet. Run in progressively for about a 1000 miles. Oil change at 250-500miles & another at 1000miles.
Title: Re: Oil return on start up after rebuild
Post by: Spitfiremk9 on 10.03. 2013 12:22
That'll do nicely !! BobH
Title: Re: Oil return on start up after rebuild
Post by: huddie on 10.03. 2013 14:30
Hi All, Didn't know wether to start a new thread or not so I have added it to this. Tried to start it again today as part of the heat cycle and to check the oil flow again. I tried without any luck. Almost seemed like there was to much compression as I was having a job kicking it over. Decided it wasnt my old legs so I thought I would check the timing. Now, when I took the timing cover off I collected about 200ml of nice clean engine oil from inside the cover, is this right? We are not talking dynamo chain lube as at this stage there is only aerosol chain lube on that. Is it right for that to be there and where is it coming from?
Regards Huddie
Title: Re: Oil return on start up after rebuild
Post by: bsa-bill on 10.03. 2013 14:55
there is a hole cast in the crankcase (timing side) so oil will find it's way into the timing cases, also some will get in via various bushes in there and is needed to lubricate all the pinions, so yes you would expect to find oil in there, 200 ml about a third of a pint  - mmmmm  might just be a bit much - anyone like to comment       
Title: Re: Oil return on start up after rebuild
Post by: metalflake11 on 10.03. 2013 15:16
A third of a pint seems too much, mine is usually about an egg cupfull, if that....... Chronic wet sumping? That might explain difficulty kicking the bike over too.
             mf
Title: Re: Oil return on start up after rebuild
Post by: huddie on 10.03. 2013 15:42
Hi All, thanks for responding, interesting about the wet sumping but I didn't think it was that because I checked the sump before I tried to start it just in case and there was just enough in the sump to cover the bottom of a measuring jug. Not sure again how wet sumping would relate to it getting into the timing cover?
If there is meant to be some in there I am going to ignore the oil in there for now and get on with my timing check.
Thanks for now Huddie
Title: Re: Oil return on start up after rebuild
Post by: metalflake11 on 10.03. 2013 15:58
What oils are you using huddie? I'm on 40's engine, and 90's gearbox, it is noticibly harder to kick over on a cold morning.
Title: Re: Oil return on start up after rebuild
Post by: huddie on 10.03. 2013 17:31
Hello Metal flake, Castrol straight 50 in the engine, castrol classic 20/50 in the gearbox. Would have used 40 if I'd had any.
Cheers Huddie
Title: Re: Oil return on start up after rebuild
Post by: metalflake11 on 10.03. 2013 18:43
50's is very thick for this cold weather, and I think it would make it difficult to kick over. Being a new motor that needs good oil round its bits asap, I would put some 30's in it to start with and then run it. Providing the oil is returning as in the above video I wouldn't worry about the oil in the timing chest.
Title: Re: Oil return on start up after rebuild
Post by: muskrat on 10.03. 2013 18:55
 While you have the timing cover off, check the oil pump nuts are tight. Could be reason for little or no return as well as excess oil in there.
Cheers
Title: Re: Oil return on start up after rebuild
Post by: metalflake11 on 10.03. 2013 19:26
While you have the timing cover off, check the oil pump nuts are tight. Could be reason for little or no return as well as excess oil in there.
Cheers
Sound thinking.
Title: Re: Oil return on start up after rebuild
Post by: trevinoz on 10.03. 2013 20:15
I'd be worried if there was no oil in there!
If you look at the oil circuit, the relief oil vents through a hole behind the timing gears as well as into the cam trough.
The oil which lubricates the main bush has to go somewhere as well, it all won't go into the crankcase.
Add to that a bit of leakage from the pump and there you go.

Trev.
Title: Re: Oil return on start up after rebuild
Post by: chaterlea25 on 11.03. 2013 00:08
Hi All
Quote
Castrol straight 50 in the engine, castrol classic 20/50 in the gearbox
I'm in clien to think thats a bit "idiot about face" ????
Straight 50 will make it hard going to start?
I wonder if the oil is leaking from the pump main bearing or somewhere into the timing case??
Normally the amount in the timing case should be a lot less than in the crankcase
Try kicking the engine over with the timing cover off and plugs out and leads shorted to earth
The amount of oil flowing into the timing case should be negligible compared to thet flowing into the crankcase

Normally either 40 or 50 in the gearbox or 90 gear oil

HTH
John
Title: Re: Oil return on start up after rebuild
Post by: metalflake11 on 11.03. 2013 00:44
I find if I leave the bike in the garage overnight and it's very cold, it's noticable how much difference there is when you kick it over as opposed to coming out of a warm house............. I think he may have got the oils the wrong way round when you mention it! *smile*
Title: Re: Oil return on start up after rebuild
Post by: Pecon on 11.03. 2013 09:36
Hi Huddie
  I agree that 50W is too heavy. When SRM rebuilt my engine they recommended a 30W oil to start off with then advised me to switch to a heavier oil after about 500 miles. I bought some 50W but when I used it I thought that it might be too thick as it ran like treacle when I poured it in a cold garage so I have ordered some 40W oil. As for the oil in the timing case I had about half a cup when I removed the cover.
Cheers,
Peter
Title: Re: Oil return on start up after rebuild
Post by: huddie on 11.03. 2013 09:40
Hi All, Metalflake thought maybe I had the oils listed the wrong way round?, no mate definitly straight 50 in the engine. SRM recommendation was 40 in the winter 50 in the summer. Oil leaking from the pump, hope not its a new SRM jobbie. I'll try kiking it over without the timimg cover on to try and see where it was coming from. Probably drain the tank as well and put straight 40 in there. I guesss I thought it wouldn't make that much difference!!
Regards Huddie
Title: Re: Oil return on start up after rebuild
Post by: huddie on 11.03. 2013 09:42
Hi Pete, just got your reply as I was posting my last one. Straight 30 eh! might give that a try.
Regards Chris
Title: Re: Oil return on start up after rebuild
Post by: bsa-bill on 11.03. 2013 10:49
Hi Huddie - a question about the SRM pump while you have the timing case cover off.

Now I've not seen one of these in the blue so to speak but have seen pics of them and the modification to the non return valve ( now goes between the pump and the crankcase I believe), so does your have the modification if so might be worth checking that the pump is flush up against the crankcase, don't want to dis SRM but I have wondered if this ball and spring could have the possibility of holding the pump off a bit, probably not but maybe just worth checking.

dis -  (modern term, see I'm down with the kids man)
Title: Re: Oil return on start up after rebuild
Post by: lawnmowerman on 11.03. 2013 11:31
dis -  (modern term, see I'm down with the kids man)

Respect bro.

You haven't taken to wearing a hoodie too have you?  *smile*

Jim
Title: Re: Oil return on start up after rebuild
Post by: bsa-bill on 11.03. 2013 11:52
Jim that's the very thing I had in mind this morning as I took our Border down the track for his morning constitutional through snow drifts and biting wind, tomorrow I'm in Berwick and I'll be looking in Sports Direct for a thick coat with a hood.
Title: Re: Oil return on start up after rebuild
Post by: huddie on 11.03. 2013 12:01
Hi bsa -bill, As far as I know the modified ball/spring arrangement goes with the timing side bush to roller conversion that SRM offer.
Mine is running the bush and an SRM pump as a straight replacement and therefore the ball/spring are still in the right side innner crankcase.
Just to carry on my original prob, timing is ok so I have drained the oil and will replace it with straight 30. My local bike shop has some Rock Oil of that variant so I will go and get it and give it another try see if it turns over any easier.
Regards for now Huddie
Title: Re: Oil return on start up after rebuild
Post by: A10Boy on 11.03. 2013 15:12
I put some straight 50 in my AJS 650 once, in winter I couldn't kick it over. Swapped it for classic 20/50 and it stared really easily.
Title: Re: Oil return on start up after rebuild
Post by: huddie on 15.03. 2013 14:27
Hello Everyone, It starts now hoo-ray. Put the straight 30 in there tried it still as tight as a ducks bottom. Kept on trying and then the kickstart wouldn't return on the spring. Busted spring I thought, how unlucky can one guy get. Unlucky cus I had taken the gearbox apart while the engine was out for my original prob which was a dropped crankshaft thrust washer.
I wanted to do the g/box oil seal and I also did all the bushes. Now when I put it back together the kickstart functioned fine but with the g/box outer cover removed the kickstart didn't unwind is was that tight!!!.
Reamed it out again refitted it all and Bingo it starts up fine now. Probably wasted my money on the straight 30.
No idea why the kick shaft should tighten up in its outer bush?
Oil flow on the straight 30 is fine, I will do a few running in miles and then change it.
Regards Huddie
Title: Re: Oil return on start up after rebuild
Post by: metalflake11 on 15.03. 2013 16:13
You've not wasted your money mate, 50's is no good in this cold weather (too thick). As you say the oil return is better now with the 30's in the tank which is critical! Good luck with the running in. *smile*
P.S. Not a clue why the kickstart should stick??
Title: Re: Oil return on start up after rebuild
Post by: RichardL on 15.03. 2013 16:36
Huddie,
 
Did you replace the kickstart quadrant or the cog it mates with? If one or the other, or both, are of the variety with flat-top teeth, the kickstart lever will be tight. Doesn't quite sound like that is your problem unless you have honed out the outer bush so much as to compensate for the distance beween gear centers. When I replaced my quadrant, it was because the inside end of the quadrant spindle had broken off in the bush. This happended because I kept starting up while the outer bush was so loose that the spindle wasn't close to running perpendicular to the inner. Amazingly, I was able to start up a few times before fracturing the outer gearbox cover. I learned about the flat-topped teeth having bought one such and having it not work.

Good luck. I must say, you are showing your A10 loyalty quite nobly, considering the various troubles.

Richard L 
Title: Re: Oil return on start up after rebuild
Post by: bsa-bill on 15.03. 2013 18:04
Good point Richard I too have one of the flat toothed quadrants, mine would not mesh at all so I think Huddie would have notice, I have since purchased the ratchet that mates with the flat toothed dodah.

Don't know what it is that causes the kickstart to jam just now and then but it seems to be quite commen.

did you have the spacer in place Huddie, the one that fits on the shaft and keeps the spring off the shaft
Title: Re: Oil return on start up after rebuild
Post by: huddie on 15.03. 2013 18:44
Hello All, Once again many thanks for all the help and advice. To Manosound and Bsa Bill, I replaced the shaft and the cog. Both my original quadrant and the new cog were not the flat tooth variant. The spacer is in place.
The intriguing thing is that when I took the cover off and just tried to run the kick start shaft through the outer bush it went very tight part way through and as I said I had to ream it out a bit. Cant work that out for trying, obviously I will keep an eye on it while I am heat cycling it and if it tightens again I will let you know.
Regards Huddie
Title: Re: Oil return on start up after rebuild
Post by: bsa-bill on 15.03. 2013 18:57
Hi Huddie
when I replaced the steel bush for the kickstart shaft in the gearbox cover I found a similar situation, I put it down to slightly more wear on the shaft where it sits in the bush compared to the bit that comes right through and the kickstart lever covers.
So when I'd reamed it to allow the thick bit of the shaft through the shaft was then just a tad slack in the bush, difficult one to get around without a new shaft, I slipped an o ring onto the shaft before the kickstart lever to keep it oil tight (yea I know it's a bodge)
Does all that make sense
Title: Re: Oil return on start up after rebuild
Post by: huddie on 15.03. 2013 21:11
Hi bsa-bill, The shaft I used was not new but it was a lot better than the one I removed which was visibly worn in the area aound the bush. Hopefully my box will still be oil tight having reamed it again but if not I will bear in mind your fix. Definitely a fix when you find a solution which keeps these old machines running.
regards Huddie
Title: Re: Oil return on start up after rebuild
Post by: metalflake11 on 15.03. 2013 21:25
Hopefully my box will still be oil tight having reamed it again *eek* *eek*
Title: Re: Oil return on start up after rebuild
Post by: muskrat on 16.03. 2013 07:40
Oh mf you are naughty. ;)
Title: Re: Oil return on start up after rebuild
Post by: duTch on 16.03. 2013 09:50


Heya Huddie, keep at it, and good luck, for what it's worth and I'm no expert on oil, but I came across some Castrol 15w/40 in a tin can, so figured that was good enough for me-(normally I use Penrites, but couldn't find anything other than 20w/60) seems fine did a 35 mile lap today, would've been ~30˚and still I can't get much to leak out and it's still 26˚ as I speak (write)7.45pm ....? -confused

  bsa-bill you crack me up with your shit....'downwit da kids' -whatever...haha
 cheers folks