The BSA A7-A10 Forum

Technical => Clutch, Primary, Gearbox => Topic started by: sprint on 25.06. 2013 22:18

Title: Clutch and shock absorber problems
Post by: sprint on 25.06. 2013 22:18
Had the bike a few weeks now, RGS, but several things I wanted to sort out so I have only had a chance to ride it today and have immediate clutch problems?

Started the bike and pulled in the clutch but when I let it out again there was more or less full play on the cable. Pulled it in again and then it was back to normal.

Stopped the bike and pulled in the clutch kicked it over with the clutch in and then released it full play in the cable. Depressed the kick lever and then the cable returned to normal.

No option but to take the chaincase cover off.

With reference to the photos what I find is that a Triumph type clutch fitted but what is happening is that when you pull the clutch in and with the clutch turning the top friction plate rides up on top of the basket and so when you release the cable it can't engage into the slot which is clearly not right.

There are 6 plain plates and 5 friction plates and there simply seems to be to many for the basket? Further there is no friction material at the base of the basket and whether you put a plain or friction plate in first it does not rest onto the bottom of the basket but stands proud of it as it rests on the base of the hub? Is that right? It means that the basket/chainwheel is not in any way bonded to the pates and hub under spring pressure and that the plates only engage via the tangs on the edge of the friction plates?

The only way this assy can work if one of the plain and friction plates be removed so that there is only 4 friction plates but then the clutch push rod is too long that does not seem right and what is the position with the first plate not actually bonding with the basket? My understanding is that there should be 5 friction plates so something is clearly seems amiss with this assy.

Further, can somebody advise if the shock absorber assy is right?

Is the engine sprocket and shock absorber cam bearing too long? The fitted tab washer does nothing as the folded inner tangs do not engage with anything as the bearing stand proud of the splines on the mainshaft on which they would correctly engage? (with the tab washer turned around)

The end nut is wearing on the inner chaincase. The end face of the nut stands about 60mm proud of the inner chaincase face which is more than the clearance available inside the outer chaincase, which indicate that the bearing is too long?

What should be the correct height of the shock absorber spring?

Some help and advise would be appreciated on both of these problems.  
 
Title: Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
Post by: chaterlea25 on 25.06. 2013 23:20
HI Andy,
First of all theres a non standard piece inside the engine shaft shockabsorber sleeve ??
Can you pull this out and let us see what it is? theres a sleeve which should fit inside the seal and butt up against the crank end (chamfer on the inner bore faces intowards crankshaft)

A shock absorber type clutch centre wont make any difference to riding the bike (if its there let it alone)
It looks as though you have too many plates fitted, it should be 6 plain and 5 friction
(assuming they are standard thickness)
Yes its "normal" for the first plain plate to sit on the lip on the centre (later Triumphs added a friction plate first and removed the lip from the centre) but have a thrust washer between chainwheel and shaft adaptor
Then of course there were different depth centres and baskets for lower powered models or early Triumphs which have less plates fitted !!!!
The outer most plain plate should not be able to come outside the basket as is happening to you
Without having all the parts in my hands its hard to see whats the problem or problems

I have come across more problems with different A series bikes with the primary side assembly than nearly anything else, *sad2*
Whether this is down to pattern parts or incorrect parts and or incorrect assembly is always a headache

It is very important to get the primary chain aligned properly, sometimes shims are needed between the shock sleeve and the crank collar
The inner casing should be spaced out correctly without strain where it bolts to the frame near the footrest shaft
and the plate between crankcase and inner primary fitted ( yes I have come across this missing!!!) allowing the primary to be fitted in too far  causing more problems
Finally the crankshaft and clutch centre nuts must be tightened properly 65ft lbs
I dont bother with the crank lockwasher and use threadlock

HTH
John






Title: Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
Post by: sprint on 25.06. 2013 23:58
Hi John

Thanks for the replies.

Are these the non-standard parts you are referring to?

They look to have been added to space the engine sprocket to align with the chainwheel sprocket, which they seem to do. They are much thicker than the std shims you would expect with a combined thickness of about 3mm but I guess that is what comes with mixing parts? Is this likely to be the cause of the nut rubbing the inside of the outer case? I guess the only solution is to relieve the outer edges of the nut?

The crank collar is correct with the chamfered inner edge facing inwards.

As I indicated in my original post the clutch assy currently has 6 plain plates and 5 friction plates and as such too many for the existing basket which is why the top friction plate rides up on top of the basket? The only way this basket can be used is to reduce the number of plates to 5 plain and 4 friction is that right with only 4 friction plates?

The plain plates are approx 2mm thick and the friction ones approx 4mm thick.

So with this assy (assuming it is correct) the drive between the basket and hub is totally via the tangs on the friction plates because the bottom plain plate sits on the inner lip as you advised? Not a very good design as it means all the load is transferred to the bottom plain plate which rests on a 1 mm or so lip, is there not a danger of the bottom plain plate bending as it is not supported at its outside edge?

Got to inspect the inner case spacing as it does not look like the parts in the book, see photo, with the outer face bolted directly to the frame brk no spacer as indicated in the parts book, is this right?

The plate between the inner case and the crankcase is present with gaskets either side?

I take it the crankcase nut you are referring to is the one on the timing side and not the the one on the end of the shock absorber?

What is the position with the shock absorber tab washer, is the one I have correct?

Have included a photo of the spring which measures about 39mm across its faces, does it look right?

At the moment I am at a bit of a loss what to do, particularly with regards to the clutch as with 5 friction plates it will ride up onto the basket but 4 will be too few and not provide enough grip?

Anybody else come across this problem?
Title: Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
Post by: Topdad on 26.06. 2013 10:50
Hi Sprint, by pure coincidence another forum member contacted me earlier this week and during the conversation he told me His triumph clutch was one of the "other types " fitted to something like a 5TA OR 3TA, anyway he couldn't fit all the plates without a problem  which may be as per yours, He'd decided to fit less plates and see how it went and at that stage he was happy ,no slip and a light action. So my advice would be ,try it with less plates so that its not above the basket and see how you get on nothing ventured etc ! At worst it's another excuse for a ride and the weather may be ok ! By the way try it without the casing on, surprising what you can see with it like that ,I'd choose a quite road though ,you can get engrossed . Then clean it up and if okay put her back together and enjoy, best wishes BobH
Title: Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
Post by: muskrat on 26.06. 2013 11:36
In picture #624 there looks to be another spacer behind the collar. The collar should butt against the inner race of the bearing.
Friction plates at 4mm thick seem a bit too thick.
Cheers
Title: Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
Post by: sprint on 26.06. 2013 14:45
Hi Sprint, by pure coincidence another forum member contacted me earlier this week and during the conversation he told me His triumph clutch was one of the "other types " fitted to something like a 5TA OR 3TA, anyway he couldn't fit all the plates without a problem  which may be as per yours, He'd decided to fit less plates and see how it went and at that stage he was happy ,no slip and a light action. So my advice would be ,try it with less plates so that its not above the basket and see how you get on nothing ventured etc ! At worst it's another excuse for a ride and the weather may be ok ! By the way try it without the casing on, surprising what you can see with it like that ,I'd choose a quite road though ,you can get engrossed . Then clean it up and if okay put her back together and enjoy, best wishes BobH

Thanks Bob

That seems to be the only option for me at the moment as it definitely can't take 5 friction plates.
Title: Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
Post by: sprint on 26.06. 2013 14:51
In picture #624 there looks to be another spacer behind the collar. The collar should butt against the inner race of the bearing.
Friction plates at 4mm thick seem a bit too thick.
Cheers

That's very observant of you. Had a check and yes there seems to be a thin shim between the dist piece and the bearing as well. Can't get it out as its larger that the oil seal and I don't want to damage that. With it fitted plus the outer two 3mm thick spacers the clutch and engine sprocket line up so there is no need to remove it?

The friction plates, including the friction material, is 4mm thick. Plate is 2mm, same as the plain plates, so 1mm friction material each side seems to be right?

Can you advise on the tab washer. Is the one I have correct and do the other parts of the shock absorber look right?
Title: Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
Post by: sprint on 26.06. 2013 14:57
It's been suggested that I should simply re-build the clutch with just 4 friction plates.

However, that will cause a couple of slight problems:

1. Getting the correct spring tension since I will now be two plates less and screwing down the spring nuts may be a problem as they will be well recessed?

2. The clutch push rod is going to be a bit too long?

In order to minimize the problem could I use two plain plates together either at the bottom or top as that would mean only one less plate?

Title: Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
Post by: Topdad on 26.06. 2013 16:03
hi again, don't think the springs will pose a problem ,you're just going slightly further down the stud before you start to tension them and with regard the pushrod just adjust accordingly from the oval inspection plate on g/box end cover if really to long shorten and harde the cut end but not before making sure you don't have to fit more plates as per your point about only fitting 1 plate less ie trial and error until you find the whats right for your parts. regards BobH
Title: Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
Post by: chaterlea25 on 26.06. 2013 23:12
Hi again Andy,
Some pillock has added all those shims because the wrong ( or poor pattern) clutch adaptor has been fitted
There have been a lot of crap adaptors on the market in recent years, even ones with the scroll cut in the wrong direction  *ex* *ex*
Firstly I would remove the clutch and adaptor,
post a photo of how far it sits onto the gearbox shaft, so as a judgment can be made
The added spacers have  been the cause of the shock nut rubbing on the case
It also looks as though the inner primary case is spaced out a lot????
I think the spacer ring is about 90 thou and 2 thin gaskets,

From your photo it also looks as though the seal will be running on the edge of the correct spacer ???
It's easy enough to pop out the seal and fit a new one

At the rear mounting near the footrest its usual to make up the space with stacked washers as the measurement varies from bike to bike

The nut I was on about is the one which holds on the shock absorber spring / cush drive,
a special tool (ebay)or an adapted socket is required to tighten this, (or a nut with hex from SRM ).
 A "C" spanner is not good enough  *eek*
This nut holds the main bearing to the crank and any crank spacing shims between the bearing and crank
if these work loose they will break up and replacement involves a complete engine strip

Measure the depth of the clutch basket, and the centre carrier and I can compare with what I have here

Yes the clutch is not the cleverest design in the World  *ex*
The innermost plain plate can flex under the spring pressure ?? Its possible to add a either a modified friction plate
or to remove the lip from the centre carrier and let the plates up against the back of the clutch basket
The slots in the basket will need deepening to let the friction plate sit against the basket
BUT doing this means steel running on steel whilst the clutch is engaging  *eek*

Burman clutches use a thick plain plate at the back to resist flex

HTH
John








Title: Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
Post by: muskrat on 27.06. 2013 10:03
And as a side note. The two inner primary bolts directly to the rear of the crank must be lockwired or a long tab washer between the two (like what they use on Asian rear sprockets).
Cheers
Title: Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
Post by: sprint on 27.06. 2013 13:53
Hi again Andy,
Some pillock has added all those shims because the wrong ( or poor pattern) clutch adaptor has been fitted
There have been a lot of crap adaptors on the market in recent years, even ones with the scroll cut in the wrong direction  *ex* *ex*
Firstly I would remove the clutch and adaptor,
post a photo of how far it sits onto the gearbox shaft, so as a judgment can be made
The added spacers have  been the cause of the shock nut rubbing on the case
It also looks as though the inner primary case is spaced out a lot????
I think the spacer ring is about 90 thou and 2 thin gaskets,

From your photo it also looks as though the seal will be running on the edge of the correct spacer ???
It's easy enough to pop out the seal and fit a new one

At the rear mounting near the footrest its usual to make up the space with stacked washers as the measurement varies from bike to bike

The nut I was on about is the one which holds on the shock absorber spring / cush drive,
a special tool (ebay)or an adapted socket is required to tighten this, (or a nut with hex from SRM ).
 A "C" spanner is not good enough  *eek*
This nut holds the main bearing to the crank and any crank spacing shims between the bearing and crank
if these work loose they will break up and replacement involves a complete engine strip

Measure the depth of the clutch basket, and the centre carrier and I can compare with what I have here

Yes the clutch is not the cleverest design in the World  *ex*
The innermost plain plate can flex under the spring pressure ?? Its possible to add a either a modified friction plate
or to remove the lip from the centre carrier and let the plates up against the back of the clutch basket
The slots in the basket will need deepening to let the friction plate sit against the basket
BUT doing this means steel running on steel whilst the clutch is engaging  *eek*

Burman clutches use a thick plain plate at the back to resist flex

HTH
John

Hi John

Thanks for your very detailed replies.

I have added a load of photos which will hopefully help.

1. Clutch hub adapter. Does it look right? I think the rear spiral groves are going the correct way.

I have loose fitted it to the mainshaft, with and without inner cover.

2. The solid spacer plate measures about 0.1" (100 thou)/2.4 mm and each gasket measures about 03" (30 thou)/0.8 mm giving an overall thickness of 0.16" (160 thou)/4 mm, is that OK or should thinner gaskets be fitted, assuming they are available?

3. Added photos of oil seal distance piece fitted and removed. I think fitted it is OK with the seal not on the edge?

4. Added photos of the S/A nut which I assume is right one but does not lend itself to being tightened by anything other than the C-spanner. Understand the importance of having everything tight and not moving around but is not the drive side main bearing a two part roller bearing that slides anyway to allow for the slight side play that is inevitable under what is only the spring tension from the S/A spring with the end play that has been set during build with the use of appropriate shims?

If the nut were to be loose surely the crank would still only move the same amount of the end play that has been set?

5. Clutch basket measures about 30 mm deep and the center carrier about 35 mm to lip and 38.5 mm overall.

Not sure that I want to be modifying either the basket or the center unless it is really necessary. It has been commented that using just 4 friction plates is OK, I will not pushing the bike in anyway. So I might go this route initially and if all is OK then leave at that?

My plan was to double up on the plain plates at the bottom and then alternate friction and plain plates and that the seems to leave enough room for the top friction plate to move without riding up on top of the basket? That way there is a double thickness of plates at the bottom and I only loose one plate which helps with the spring tension and the clutch push rod.

Will appreciate you comments and advice.

Have also replied to you comments and advise about the gearing.

Thanks

Andy









Title: Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
Post by: A10Boy on 27.06. 2013 14:40
I suggest getting everything back to Std including removing the seal and that odd spacer. Assemble it as per the parts diagrams [which are available online] with no additional parts. The clutch adapter looks ok to me, so thats good. Not sure on the 30mm in the basket, it does look slim but I havent got a spare basket to hand but someone will measure one for you.

While you're at it, check the end float on the crank in case some muppet has bodged that too.

BTW, the load through the clutch is taken up by ALL the tangs on the friction plates, not just one.
Title: Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
Post by: sprint on 27.06. 2013 22:14
Thanks A10boy

Do you mean the shim that is between the oil seal dist piece and the bearing? If so to remove it will mean destroying and replacing the oil seal? I will then have to re-used it the other side of the dist piece as it adds up to shimming the engine sprocket to align with the clutch sprocket.

You indicate that the clutch adapter looks right so is it normal to have to shim the engine sprocket by as much as 3 mm?

What is the acceptable max end float for the crank?
Title: Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
Post by: BSA_54A10 on 28.06. 2013 10:34
Me thinks that your basket is off a single wich not having as much grunt got less plates.

If your stack ends up a little short ( sounds a bit naughty doesn't it ? ) then double up on the plain plate nearest the pressure plate.
When I were young & pennyles ( as distinct from being old & broke ) we would oft use a extra plain plate or two to pack out the clutch & get the last 0.0001" out of the friction plates.
Bike Beesa
trevor
Title: Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
Post by: A10Boy on 28.06. 2013 11:58
Quote
Do you mean the shim that is between the oil seal dist piece and the bearing? If so to remove it will mean destroying and replacing the oil seal?

Yes, thats what I'm suggesting, pull that 2 quid seal out and remove the shim. It it needs shimming put them in the right place as per the book.

Crank end float from memory should be 1.5 thou. You can use the search facility to see lots of info on this.
Title: Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
Post by: sprint on 28.06. 2013 18:37
Me thinks that your basket is off a single wich not having as much grunt got less plates.

If your stack ends up a little short ( sounds a bit naughty doesn't it ? ) then double up on the plain plate nearest the pressure plate.
When I were young & pennyles ( as distinct from being old & broke ) we would oft use a extra plain plate or two to pack out the clutch & get the last 0.0001" out of the friction plates.
Bike Beesa
trevor

Thanks Trevor

Putting just 4 friction plates in and doubling up on the plain plates at the bottom seems to work, won't find out whether it slips until I get it back together again?

I think that having two plain plates at the bottom is better with this basket as the plates do not sit on the bottom of the basket but on a lip on the bottom of the center. 
Title: Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
Post by: chaterlea25 on 28.06. 2013 22:09
Hi Andy,
I have just gone and taken a few measurements from a dismantled A10 in the shed!!!
Ok,
The clutch basket here is 35-36 mm deep so this is why the 5 plates wont fit in your bikes one,
Your centre plate carrier Is correct at 35 or so mm, its the same on a solid or shock type

I tried an adaptor on two different mainshafts, both had 15/16mm thread protruding from the face
I would have to go digging to locate some other adaptors to try

In your photos of the adaptor fitted onto the mainshaft, theres a large gap between the adaptor and sliding plate
so the scroll is barely engaging??????????? (problem here see farther down)!!)

Your measurements for the sandwich plate and gaskets seem ok (new gaskets I have are 0.65/0.7mm)

You indicate that the clutch adapter looks right so is it normal to have to shim the engine sprocket by as much as 3 mm?

NO  *ex* *ex* normally less than 0.5mm

So where does this all lead us to *????* *????* *????*

Unless your adaptor to end of gearbox shaft measurement is different by the amount of shims (3mm?) or the gearbox mainshaft is extending 3mm more than it should Due to incorrect gearbox assembly ???????
I measueed 62mm from the end of the sleevegear to the end of the shaft ( no guarantee on this measurement as that box is loosely assembled)
Or are the engine/gearbox plates assembled correctly ??

I would go and bounce that crank end nut off the head of the bloke who sold you the bike  *idea* *idea* *idea*
its not fit for anything else (another item to buy!)

After all that if theres no obvious answer I can only suggest shipping the bike to me for sorting !!

Regards
John



Title: Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
Post by: sprint on 29.06. 2013 11:09
Thanks for the replies John.

Yes I am feel fairly sick about all this. I don't think the guy was deliberately trying con anybody, but clearly does not really know the detail he should be working to.

I will contact him too see what he has to say?

Clearly the clutch basket is too shallow to take 5 friction plates, so I either find a deeper basket or see how I get on with just 4? At this stage I think it is prudent to see how  it works with 4 friction plates?

I have measure the thread length of the M/S protruding with the adapter fitted which is the same as you have measured at about 15 mm. That is with the M/S pulled hard up against the sleeve gear, in reality it will be pulled up against the inner case bearing and so will probably a couple of mm less that these measurements? 

The length of the M/S protruding beyond the end face of the adapter measures about 62.5 mm again the same as you have measured, so all that seems to be correct? So there does nor seem to be any logical reason as to why the adapter is so far away from the sliding plate? I guess it will result in fairly rapid oil loss from the chaincase? It also seems to fix the need for the 3 mm spacing to align the gearbox and chainwheel sprockets?

Any suggestions or is it just a case of having to live with what I have?

You have indicated bounding the crank end nut of the bonce of the guy I bought it from but is it actually wrong and if so what are you suggesting it be replaced with? What is the correct nut and will not what ever nut is used cause the same problem of rubbing on the inside of the case? Do I need to file down the outside edge of the existing nut?

Can't see where the G/B or plates have been fitted incorrectly, not sure if the photos give enough detail?
Title: Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
Post by: chaterlea25 on 29.06. 2013 20:16
HI Andy,
Any measurements of the gearbox shaft need to be done when the gearbox sprocket nut and the gearbox inner cover and mainshaft nut at the kickstarter end are done up
I cannot see from thew photos any obvious problems!!!
A solution might be to use a shaft adaptor from a single cylinder BSA which has the taper bored deeper???

The only other dimension I can think of that has not been measured is the inner boss of the engine shaft shock sleeve, and the spacer which sits against the main bearing
There have been suggestions here some time ago that there were different thickness sleeve boss shoulders
All the ones I have come across have been the same, I seem to remember "Mosin" in trouble with this

The missile (crank nut) is badly chewed up and it will be very difficult to tighten properly
To me the best replacement is the hex headed one from SRM
http://www.srmclassicbikes.com/catalogue/index.php?target=products&product_id=185

A clutch basket is available too,
http://www.srmclassicbikes.com/catalogue/index.php?target=products&product_id=167
knowing SRM it will not be the horrible cheapo one thats often on fleabay

I will go and check out the questions on your gearbox thread and hopfully answer over the weekend

Regards
John
Title: Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
Post by: bsa-bill on 29.06. 2013 20:49
Andy if it comes to spending money consider there are thinner plates available ( google something along the lines of "Triumph seven plate conversion)
Quite a popular mod at one time, I had similar problem and bought one, can't recall just what you get, think it's thinner friction and one extra plain or vice versa, anyway I couldn't get them all in but think I ended up with five or six and a good clutch
Title: Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
Post by: sprint on 30.06. 2013 10:17
Thanks for the replies John

The measurements I took were with the mainshaft not bolted up at the the other end, so will be less by a couple or mm or so?

The oil seal dist piece measures about 10 mm, the sleeve approx 51 mm overall and the lip about 5 mm thick. How does that compare?

The only other dimension I can think of is from the front face of the crankcase, face where the 5 tapped holes are, to the machined face of the gearbox boss is about 25 mm, see photo. That should indicate if the G/B is not correctly located?

Does/would  the single cyl adapter directly fit the center I have or would that too have to be replaced?

The SRM looks to be a better idea by have concern that the allen screw, with my existing problem, will end up chewing up the inside of case as the existing nut does?

The SRM clutch basket also looks to be a possible solution. Would have to check it's depth. Would it also have the bottom plain plate sitting on the center lip?

Much appreciate your time and help, the same goes to everybody else who has replied and contributed, thanks.

Andy
Title: Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
Post by: sprint on 30.06. 2013 16:33
Andy if it comes to spending money consider there are thinner plates available ( google something along the lines of "Triumph seven plate conversion)
Quite a popular mod at one time, I had similar problem and bought one, can't recall just what you get, think it's thinner friction and one extra plain or vice versa, anyway I couldn't get them all in but think I ended up with five or six and a good clutch

Thanks for the suggestion Bill.

It is something to consider, it will end up cheaper to just replace the basket with one of the correct depth and use the existing plates as they are effectively new?

Sill have not decided if at this stage to just re-build it using 4 friction plates and see how it goes and then replace the basket if necessary? But with so many other issues to sort out that may be the simplest way at the moment? However, unless I can find out why the clutch assy is set so far away from the rear case I'm not really going far as the shock absorber nut is currently wearing a hole in the outer case.
Title: Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
Post by: chaterlea25 on 30.06. 2013 20:34
HI Andy,


""The oil seal dist piece measures about 10 mm, the sleeve approx 51 mm overall and the lip about 5 mm thick. How does that compare? ""

Distance piece measurement ok.
Attached are a couple of photos showing two cush drive sleeves and a good and two butchered crank nuts for comparison
It looks as though finally the discrepancy has been found  *idea* (At least one of????)
The sleeves in the photo have the shoulder just over 8mm thick, overall length about 50.5mm
This would have allowed the sprocket on your bike to be 3mm in too far,
the packing spacers were added to correct this BUT have moved the sleeve and nut outwards by the same amount,
probably why the nut is touching the outer casing??

When the assembly is together, a point to note is that without the spring in place it should NOT be possible for the sprocket to ride over the top of the shock absorber cams.

I think you need the proper cush drive sleeve as a start off point.

""The only other dimension I can think of is from the front face of the crankcase, face where the 5 tapped holes are, to the machined face of the gearbox boss is about 25 mm, see photo. That should indicate if the G/B is not correctly located?""

I dont have a bike in that state to take a measurement at this time, perhaps some one else has?

""Does/would  the single cyl adapter directly fit the center I have or would that too have to be replaced?""

Its a direct replacement its just thet it sits farther onto the mainshaft (probably not needed now ??)


""The SRM looks to be a better idea by have concern that the allen screw, with my existing problem, will end up chewing up the inside of case as the existing nut does?""

The allen screws are not used when the bike is assembled for running, they provide a mounting for SRM's timing disc

""The SRM clutch basket also looks to be a possible solution. Would have to check it's depth. Would it also have the bottom plain plate sitting on the center lip?
""

Normally Yes,
or
SRM's shaft adaptor has provision for a thrust washer,
http://www.srmclassicbikes.com/catalogue/index.php?target=products&product_id=158
if this is fitted the lip on the inner drum can be machined off
or enlarge the centre hole in one friction plate so as it will fit over the lip, so as the first friction plate will sit in the bottom of the Basket,

""Much appreciate your time and help, the same goes to everybody else who has replied and contributed, thanks.""

Many Thanks *smile*

Hopefully tomorrow I will get at the gearbox questions,
can you temporarily assemble the mianshaft and inner case + the sprocket and nut and measure as before

Regards
John

Title: Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
Post by: sprint on 01.07. 2013 11:05
Thanks John

What you have found clearly indicates as to why there is this 3 mm discrepancy.

With reference to attached photo the sleeve does not look to have been modified as you can see the undercut grove just above the lip so I wonder what bike it it is from?

I have also added a photo showing the sprocket and cam with the cam at what would be its max position and even with only the 4.8 mm lip there is no danger of it being able to slip past with a 8 mm lip even less so and there will be much more spring tension. However, I also have a shock absorber in the clutch center.

The question is why was this one ever fitted and are you sure that the 8 mm one is correct? It would seem that there are 3 type available? For the A series 55-62 it should be 42-69, 65-2539 for the B/M series 54-63 and 67-1134 for the A series 55? So is the one with the 8 mm lip the 42-69 version?

See what you mean about the crank nut, it has seen better days.

Don't want to have to get remove the lip on the center, so have to decide as to if I lust try it with 4 friction plates or replace the basket?

With the inner case fitted and the S/A assy without the 3 mm spacers the front face of the crank nut is approx 55.5 mm from the front face of the inner case. With the 3 mm spacers fitted between the sleeve and the oil seal dist piece it is approx 58.5 mm.

However, this does not correct the clutch adapter scroll be a fair way from the sliding plate?

Also I note that with the gaskets and steel collar fitted between the rear of the inner case and the crankcases the far bottom end of the case falls naturally on the center of the frame mounting brk? it means that with everything in place and bolted up the case is being forced behind the brk by 1 to 1.5 mm? Is this normal, I suspect not?

From what I have read and seen with the exploded dia's the inner case should be in front of the brk with an appropriate spacer between the rear of the case and the frame, or is the RGS frame different?

I have loosely re-assembled the mainshaft and inner G/B cover. The exposed thread from the end of the adapter remains at about 15 mm and the adapter goes into the sliding plate by about 4 mm, approx half the shouldered scroll depth?
Title: Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
Post by: chaterlea25 on 01.07. 2013 23:09
Hi Andy,
I believe your S/A sleeve is from a single cylinder bike, whatever it is its not "A"
My parts book shows adaptor as pt no, 42-3170 ????
I still suspect that your clutch adaptor is not correct ?????
could you get your hands on a known good one and try that?

When you replaced the inner primary case,  did you fit bolts front and back of the crank? so as the case is held evenly against the crankcase
In one of your photos a thread at the rear of the crankcase  looks somewhat dodgy??
Place the inner case on a flat surface and see is it distorted and that the inner face is parallel with the outer

"Normally" the inner primary 1 to 2mm or so inside the frame lug
The fitment of the inner is the same on all the swing arm "A's"
Go through the slide show on this link and it shows a lot of details
http://www.classiccyclesltd.com/build-bike-slideshow.html

I wanted to check the distance from the face of the sleeve gear to the end of the gearbox mainshaft when the box inner case and kickstart end nut and its relavent parts fitted

THis thread lists some if not all the RGS identifying points
http://www.a7a10.net/forum/index.php/forum/index.php?topic=1164.0


HTH
John


Title: Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
Post by: sprint on 02.07. 2013 11:22
Hi John

Thanks for you patience in helping me, this is becoming a bit of a can of worms for me as I am not familiar with the marque being more familiar with unit Triumphs.

Unfortunately the video link does not work.

I used the RGS thread link originally to help check that it was a gen RGS and all the points listed there tally with the bike which also has an original log book which also tallies.

I have invoices for a considerable amount of engine and other work that was done, but it seems the guy who re-built it did not pay enough attention to the finer but farly important detail.

With the M/S fitted and bolted up to the K/S ratchet assy and the inner case, less gasket, it measures just under 61 mm from the end face of the sleeve gear to the end of the M/S at the clutch end?

I did only use the two inner bolts to hold the case but it make no difference if the outer ones are used to clamp as well.

Just using the two paper gaskets give about 1 to 2 mm clearance between the case and the inner face of the brk, see photo. But with the steel spacer about 4 mm thick it means that the case is being pushed back by 1 to 2 mm. I guess there is an argument as to whether both gaskets can/should be used or if I can dispense with the steel plate, but then I would be loosing what I am hoping to gain by sorting out the sleeve bush?

Unfortunately all five of the  crankcase holes are in a bad way. Four of them are M8 and one M10 with all being pretty much having the threads formed by loctite, but currently do hold, just. Would like to get a few miles some to shake out all the potential problems, but clearly in the near future the engine need to be pulled apart and the threads repaired with a pillar drill.

I can fit either M8 or 5/16" helicoils but reluctant to be doing all 5 in situ?

Don't have access anybody with a 42-3170 to compare the adapter with, but it can only be the the point at which the taper starts or the length or position of the scrolled section that is in question?

The tapered section on mine starts approx 15 mm from the back face, scrolled end and the scrolled section is as about 12 mm long? The adapter is about 38 mm in overall width? How do these compare?

Andy

Title: Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
Post by: sprint on 04.07. 2013 13:23
Have spoken to Dragonfly who have an original S/A sleeve bush, 42-69, only one they have so not for sale.

They measured the lip at 5 mm, not 8 mm?

Adds even more confusion for me as mine measures approx 4.8 mm and so looks to be correct? So it is still possible that the clutch adapter, 42-3170, that I have is wrong, as originally suggested as it seems that there were a batch a few years ago the were out by 3 mm?

Are there any checks that can be done to establish if my current on is correct or not?
Title: Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
Post by: chaterlea25 on 04.07. 2013 22:27
Hi Andy,
Sorry I gave you the part number for the gearbox sleeve instead of the crank sleeve *red*

Draganfly are not without their failings  *????* *????* *????*
I have had several issues with crap pattern parts supplied by them, usual Was**l shite!!
They can have a very bad attitude if you phone up complaining

In my opinion there are better sources of supply, and more knowledgable people

The link I gave you for the RGS build slide show works ok for me ????

""Unfortunately all five of the  crankcase holes are in a bad way. Four of them are M8 and one M10 with all being pretty much having the threads formed by loctite, but currently do hold, just. Would like to get a few miles some to shake out all the potential problems, but clearly in the near future the engine need to be pulled apart and the threads repaired with a pillar drill.""

This shows the lack of skills, and or shortcuts taken by the ""bike builder""  *eek* *eek* *eek* *eek*
Only he knows the bodges that,  chances are will be found as soon as you try to do any milage  *sad2* *sad2* *sad2*
""Time serts"" are a far better proposition for repairing the crankcase threads, and a threaded sleeve for the M10 hole
Attached pics show a current engine in the workshop, timesert on the left and solid oversize insert on right

Get the correct sleeve, and this should sort out primary chain alignment
Once you can attach the inner case properly you should be able to sort out the scrolled sleeve in the sliding plate
Sort out one known problem at the time and work on from there

Regards
John



Title: Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
Post by: bsa-bill on 04.07. 2013 22:37
Quote
They can have a very bad attitude if you phone up complaining

Yep sent me wrong rocker box studs, I phones not so much to complain but tell them the catalog was wrong, he got quite shirty
Title: Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
Post by: sprint on 05.07. 2013 12:23
Hi Andy,
Sorry I gave you the part number for the gearbox sleeve instead of the crank sleeve *red*

Draganfly are not without their failings  *????* *????* *????*
I have had several issues with crap pattern parts supplied by them, usual Was**l shite!!
They can have a very bad attitude if you phone up complaining

In my opinion there are better sources of supply, and more knowledgable people

The link I gave you for the RGS build slide show works ok for me ????

""Unfortunately all five of the  crankcase holes are in a bad way. Four of them are M8 and one M10 with all being pretty much having the threads formed by loctite, but currently do hold, just. Would like to get a few miles some to shake out all the potential problems, but clearly in the near future the engine need to be pulled apart and the threads repaired with a pillar drill.""

This shows the lack of skills, and or shortcuts taken by the ""bike builder""  *eek* *eek* *eek* *eek*
Only he knows the bodges that,  chances are will be found as soon as you try to do any milage  *sad2* *sad2* *sad2*
""Time serts"" are a far better proposition for repairing the crankcase threads, and a threaded sleeve for the M10 hole
Attached pics show a current engine in the workshop, timesert on the left and solid oversize insert on right

Get the correct sleeve, and this should sort out primary chain alignment
Once you can attach the inner case properly you should be able to sort out the scrolled sleeve in the sliding plate
Sort out one known problem at the time and work on from there

Regards
John



Thanks for the replies John

Not sure though if you are agreeing that I may have the correct S/A sleeve bush or not? At this moment I do not know if the lip should be 5 or 8 mm?

I guess the only way is to order the clutch adapter and if that sits back further on the mainshaft by about 3 mm then that is the solution? If it sits in the same position then it must be the S/A sleeve bush?

Are there any drawings of parts available anywhere?

The part that Dragonfly had, 42-69 was an original BSA part. It was the last one they have which they won't sell as the need it for a pattern should they ever decide to get some made.

Currently knowbody has any new ones so only S/H ones are available but at this moment in time I still do not know what I a looking for one with 5 or 8 mm lip?

Have gone back to the guy I bought it from and he can't be more apologetic about all the issues I have had. He handed all the engine work over to a company to do the head and crank etc but because he did not specifically request they check and do the  crank case holes it just seems to have been missed. He had made a generous refund to cover all the costs involved in sorting out all the issues I have had, so I am happy with that though I would prefer not to be doing any of the work.

I think I will just get the bike back together again and run it for a while and then look to sort out the threads and any other issues that come to light?

Any suggestions on what may be amiss with the gearbox L/S end play?


Time serts do look to be a better solution, but are horrendously expensive for a kit at over £100?
Title: Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
Post by: chaterlea25 on 05.07. 2013 21:30
HI Andy,
The two sleeves I showed in the photos posted are from my current RGS and the  other A10 in for rebuild
I also had my own A10 SR apart a few weeks ago to lower the gearing a bit for the trip to the Swiss Alps
(another story I must post about) I know that I checked the sleeves and they all are 8mm

Have you tried Yeomans, C&D Autos, Vale Onslows or http://www.owensmotorcycles.co.uk/Index.html

I also noticed that some engine sprockets have a small lip on the inside where they fit on the sleeve others are flat????? I have two 24t engine sprockets one with and one without

Re the gearbox
I would assemble the cluster standing on the inner casing, look and see how well the fixed gear on the mainshaft (G)lines up with the layshaft free gear (H)

Remember that the sleeve gear is held away from the shoulder on the end of the mainshaft by the sprocket and nut
Its possible to measure this gap by trial assembly of the mainshaft and sleeve gear without sprocket and see how much the sleeve gear can move inwards
When you allow for this see how well the sleeve gear (A) and the layshaft gear (B) align

You can then decide where to add or get thicker thrust washers to correct the end float.

My reasoning for timeserts over wire inserts is that they cannot move after being put in place
wire inserts could move inwards and foul the crank  *eek*
I have had the time sert kit for a long time, I remember it cost about the same as having SRM do the inserts
£50 ?? at the time
I'm probably after going through 3 or 4 boxes of inserts since so it was money well spent
I'm sure you could find someone closer to you than me? where you can get the job done propery
There must be Forum members in your locality who will know where to go???

Come on Guys shout out the silence is deafening!!!!!


Regards
John



Title: Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
Post by: trevinoz on 07.07. 2013 02:38
Re cush drive sleeve.
Possibly the one with the 5mm "lip" is a plunger type. The sprocket may have been ground out to fit.
S/A types are 8mm.
Plunger is 56mm overall & S/A 50mm.
Re clutch adaptor.
I have just measured one and the distance from the sleeve to the end of the mainshaft is 5/8" on two shafts.
Yours appears to have 14.5mm which is not quite 5/8".

Trev.
Title: Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
Post by: sprint on 07.07. 2013 11:01
Thanks for your reply and advice Trev

I have spoken to 3 dealers and in all cases they have advised the lip on the cush dive sleeve should be 5 mm? The one I have is approx 50 mm long, but has a 5 mm lip?

However, when looking at the 2 on the photo John posted, P6291768, they both have a slightly radius to the back face whereas mine, photo P1010677 does not? So it is possible that somebody has had the rear face machined at some time. Since there are no new ones available it is difficult to know if it should be 5 or 8 mm as I can't just simply buy to try? Who holds the BSA parts drawings?

As previously posted, there is a gap of about 4 to 5 mm between the rear face of the clutch adapter and the sliding plate, which I have been advised is too wide and that I may have an incorrect adapter? Apparently there was a batch that were wrongly made forcing the clutch out by about 3 mm, see photos P1010652, P1010649, P1010672 & P1010693.

The error would be that the tapper in the adapter has not been machined wide enough. (Tapper tool has not gone deep enough when machining the tapper in the adapter) The I/D of the tapper is approx 18.9 mm at the rear and approx 16.4/16.5 mm at the front, see photo? Anybody with a vernier who can check? 

If that is the case then with the correct adapter an 8 mm lip on the cush drive sleeve would mean that the gearbox sprocket would not be aligned with the clutch chainwheel sprocket and would be too far forward? 

At the moment I am still not sure if I have an incorrect clutch adapter or cush drive sleeve or both?
Title: Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
Post by: trevinoz on 07.07. 2013 23:37
Andy,
            I think that your dealers are wrong. I have 6 S/A A10s in varying degrees of assembly and all have 8mm sleeves. All of the plunger ones I have are 5mm.
Regarding the clutch sleeve, I imported a couple of 6 spring sleeves a few years ago and they had the wrong taper and the clutch was way out of alignment with the engine sprocket.
Firstly I made a spacer to align the cush drive but that moved everything out too far and caused fouling on the outer cover.
I had them machined to the correct taper but only one of them ended up useable. An expensive exercise.
The machinist reckoned that the taper angle should be 3 degrees, 40" as that what he came up with for the mainshaft. A strange angle, indeed!
I suppose that he was correct as the one adapter fitted OK. The other had a poofteenth too much taken out and didn't fit where it should.
I think that firstly you need to get the clutch where it belongs then sort out the cush drive. It is relatively easy to make a spacer of the width needed.

Trev.
Title: Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
Post by: sprint on 08.07. 2013 11:34
Spoken to yet another dealer who has an original NOS and it also measures 5 mm with and overall length of around 50 mm?

These are for part No: 42-0069 which is what I believe is the correct part No?

Can somebody confirm that this is the correct part No for a 62/63 RGS/Super Rocket Cush Drive Sleeve?

There are two other part No's listed, 65-2539 & 67-1134 but it is my understanding that they are for 54-63 B/M series and 55 A series respectively?
Title: Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
Post by: chaterlea25 on 08.07. 2013 21:52
HI Andy,
The late parts book shows the same 0069 number ??? I would forget about the number and ask for one with 8mm lip regardless of what ??number it has , (It wwont be the first time the parts book is incorrect)

I Would get the crank end sorted first, as  from our comparitive measurements I think the clutch will be about correct, 67-2056/57/58 are 5, 10 and 30 thou shims for fine adjustment of the primary alignment

If in doubt about the clutch adaptor, then buy the one from SRM as that is a known and guaranteed item
only sold by them, They also offer advice over the phone (after 4pm)

You have not told us whether you checked the inner primary for flattness /parallesism???

If the primary all aligns up and the inner case sliding plate is still too far away from the scroll its possible to adjust the plate inwards by replacing the felt seal with a thicker cork gasket
I find the felt useless and always fit a cork gasket, be careful not to distort the plate though!!!

HTH
John
Title: Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
Post by: muskrat on 08.07. 2013 23:19
G'day John.
Just a question as I'm trying to picture it in my head (not renowned for correctness). To move the sliding plate closer to the scroll wouldn't you need longer shoulders on the bolts? Do you space it out with washers?
Cheers
Title: Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
Post by: bsa-bill on 09.07. 2013 09:27
the studs for the sliding plat are shouldered, the shoulder keeps the plate the correct distance from the inner cover.
If your studs do not have a shoulder they are the wrong studs (not uncommon), proper ones are available

There are two types long (for full rear chain case) or these (short)

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?client=firefox-a&hs=OjU&sa=X&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&biw=1460&bih=852&tbm=isch&tbnid=LtwCeP7he72o-M:&imgrefurl=http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BSA-GOLDSTAR-RGS-A10-NEW-OLD-STOCK-SLIDING-PLATE-BOLTS-66-7523-/160989798554&docid=Rk1JIPHIsolNLM&itg=1&imgurl=http://i.ebayimg.com/t/BSA-GOLDSTAR-RGS-A10-NEW-OLD-STOCK-SLIDING-PLATE-BOLTS-66-7523-/00/s/NzY4WDEwMjQ%253D/z/v2sAAMXQMmJRP5V2/%2524T2eC16F,!)0E9s37FbmOBRP5V2v1V!~~60_35.JPG&w=300&h=225&ei=B8nbUa6MLsi-0QXi4YCoCA&zoom=1&ved=1t:3588,r:1,s:0,i:85&iact=rc&page=1&tbnh=178&tbnw=230&start=0&ndsp=31&tx=107&ty=39 (http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?client=firefox-a&hs=OjU&sa=X&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&biw=1460&bih=852&tbm=isch&tbnid=LtwCeP7he72o-M:&imgrefurl=http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BSA-GOLDSTAR-RGS-A10-NEW-OLD-STOCK-SLIDING-PLATE-BOLTS-66-7523-/160989798554&docid=Rk1JIPHIsolNLM&itg=1&imgurl=http://i.ebayimg.com/t/BSA-GOLDSTAR-RGS-A10-NEW-OLD-STOCK-SLIDING-PLATE-BOLTS-66-7523-/00/s/NzY4WDEwMjQ%253D/z/v2sAAMXQMmJRP5V2/%2524T2eC16F,!)0E9s37FbmOBRP5V2v1V!~~60_35.JPG&w=300&h=225&ei=B8nbUa6MLsi-0QXi4YCoCA&zoom=1&ved=1t:3588,r:1,s:0,i:85&iact=rc&page=1&tbnh=178&tbnw=230&start=0&ndsp=31&tx=107&ty=39)

Oops that's a bit long
Title: Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
Post by: muskrat on 09.07. 2013 20:42
That's what I mean Bill, would need longer shoulders or packed with washers and use the long ones even without a FE Chain guard.
Just a thought, with the primary mis-alighnment and the inner cover hitting the frame. Could the frame or engine plates be bent?
Cheers
Title: Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
Post by: bsa-bill on 09.07. 2013 21:42
yep I agree, I would adjust the primary case somehow rather than the sliding plate
Title: Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
Post by: chaterlea25 on 09.07. 2013 23:05
HI Bill and Musky,
Yes add washers to prevent sliding plate distortion,
Most times its lack of space between adaptor and plate !!! then add washers to bottom rear mount and remove one or more gaskets between inner case and crankcase
Its also possible to swell the adaptor by over tightening the clutch nut  *eek* over use of the air impact gun!!!
I have also seen one crack at the keyway so it went onto the shaft too far  *sad2*

I did think of the possibility of frame damage being the cause of Andy's problems but I did not want to drive him deeper into depression *problem*
I think its fairly unlikely though as there are defenite issues as already discussed

Cheers
John
Title: Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
Post by: sprint on 10.07. 2013 12:42
That's what I mean Bill, would need longer shoulders or packed with washers and use the long ones even without a FE Chain guard.
Just a thought, with the primary mis-alighnment and the inner cover hitting the frame. Could the frame or engine plates be bent?
Cheers

There is always a possibility that something may be bent or not re-built correctly?

Not having done the build I have no way of knowing.

The inner case is out by 2 to 3 mm, not much and the simplest way is to have that amount machined off the edge of the case where it mounts the frame brk. That way if/when the discrepancy is found a slightly deeper spacer will not be a problem and there is still plenty of 'meat' on the case at the mounting point, though clearly I would like to know why it does not fit correctly?
Title: Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
Post by: bsa-bill on 10.07. 2013 13:17
Quote
though clearly I would like to know why is does not fit correctly?

Hi Andy I would suggest that 2 -3 mm might not mean it's incorrect given that when new the frames were welded  and the alloy cases cast ( and maybe not all from the same source) as far as I know there was no particular sized spacer for that gap, my flash has no washers in there at all so quite possible the tolerance went both ways so I'd not be too put out at having to grind a bit off as you say.

Also an interesting point raised by John, I used a baler (agricultural) for many years the knotters on such have a bill hook worm held on a taper, trouble trouble trouble mechanics used to berate us for over tightening them as they split on the taper (impossible to see the crack unless with a magnifying glass) but unless tight they just slipped and timing went off
Title: Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
Post by: sprint on 10.07. 2013 18:13
Can anybody advise if this clutch adapter with thrust washer and chainwheel that are used on the pre-unit Triumphs will also fit the BSA Super Rocket mainshaft which look to be the same as SRM supply?

Title: Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
Post by: sprint on 10.07. 2013 18:16
HI Andy,
The two sleeves I showed in the photos posted are from my current RGS and the  other A10 in for rebuild
I also had my own A10 SR apart a few weeks ago to lower the gearing a bit for the trip to the Swiss Alps
(another story I must post about) I know that I checked the sleeves and they all are 8mm

Have you tried Yeomans, C&D Autos, Vale Onslows or http://www.owensmotorcycles.co.uk/Index.html


Regards
John




Have found a S/H one with 8 mm lip which should arrive on Friday. Still not sure though if the 4/5 mm gap from the back of the clutch adapter to the sliding plate is correct?

Andy

Title: Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
Post by: trevinoz on 10.07. 2013 22:52
Andy,
             Triumph sleeves will not fit as they have a different taper.

Trev.
Title: Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
Post by: chaterlea25 on 11.07. 2013 00:31
HI Andy

""Can anybody advise if this clutch adapter with thrust washer and chainwheel that are used on the pre-unit Triumphs will also fit the BSA Super Rocket mainshaft which look to be the same as SRM supply""?

Along with Trevs comment Triumph adaptors do not have tha scroll at the back

SRM's product is unique to them as far as I know, when it comes to BSA knowledge they are at the top of the top league, if ever there is a problem with their products they stand over them
Crap products can be got anywhere *ex* *ex*
SRM's may cost a few quid more but you can be confident of quality and fit
Knowing this saves me an awful lot of hassle and unessary grief when repairing customer bikes

Regards
John
Title: Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
Post by: sprint on 11.07. 2013 13:25
HI Andy

""Can anybody advise if this clutch adapter with thrust washer and chainwheel that are used on the pre-unit Triumphs will also fit the BSA Super Rocket mainshaft which look to be the same as SRM supply""?

Along with Trevs comment Triumph adaptors do not have tha scroll at the back

SRM's product is unique to them as far as I know, when it comes to BSA knowledge they are at the top of the top league, if ever there is a problem with their products they stand over them
Crap products can be got anywhere *ex* *ex*
SRM's may cost a few quid more but you can be confident of quality and fit
Knowing this saves me an awful lot of hassle and unessary grief when repairing customer bikes

Regards
John


Thanks Trev and John for your replies.

Have spoken to SRM and they have advised that the taper is different between the Triumph and BSA versions. Pity because the UK made Harris Triumph versions would be exactly the same apart from the taper and half the price?

The SRM ones also do not have the scroll cut into the rear shoulder. They claim it to be of no use, which when you look at the design with a large gap between the shoulder and the aperture in the sliding plate the scroll is not really doing a lot as you need it to be a fairly close fitting between the two surfaces.

Instead the adapter shoulder has a smooth finish and they use a thick felt washer of about 5 mm thick, which compresses between the back face of the adapter and the face of the sliding plate, not ideal but can't be any worse that the scroll on it's own?

They are currently out of stock of the baskets but I can get a L F Harris UK made one for a Triumph pre-unit that should be the same as I believe the bearing journal is the same on either adapter with 20 1/4" rollers? Much prefer to use a UK made part than a foreign made ones which a lot of the dealers stock and Harris parts are generally good?
Title: Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
Post by: bsa-bill on 11.07. 2013 16:53
Quote
Instead the adapter shoulder has a smooth finish and they use a thick felt washer of about 5 mm thick, which compresses between the back face of the adapter and the face of the sliding plate,

have I misread this or is there a bit a flannel about.

The felt washer sprint is/was a BSA idea, kind of agree about the scroll though as generally seems a bit slack in there after a few hundred miles but OTOH people who bought adapters that had the scroll going the wrong way would be the best to comment
Title: Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
Post by: chaterlea25 on 11.07. 2013 23:26
HI Andy,
Some time ago I posted on how I modified the sliding plate and fitted an "X" ring seal to a groove machined into a new piece rivited into the plate, the plain centre from SRM would be ripe for this conversion
As I said before I use a cork gasket instead of the felt, the result was a so sucessful I had to add a breather to the fillercap as pressure was building up inside the case !!!!

I did a forum search on the clutch adaptor and it seems that I got involved with a lot of the discussions  *eek*
Some posts are more relavent to your situation than others but it goes to show its a fairly common problem
THere are lots more to be found using different search words

http://www.a7a10.net/forum/index.php?topic=2543.msg16406;topicseen#msg16406
http://www.a7a10.net/forum/index.php/topic,3152.0.html
http://www.a7a10.net/forum/index.php?topic=4550.msg30825;topicseen#msg30825
http://www.a7a10.net/forum/index.php?topic=3685.msg25505;topicseen#msg25505
http://www.a7a10.net/forum/index.php?topic=4928.msg33454;topicseen#msg33454
http://www.a7a10.net/forum/index.php?topic=1003.0
http://www.a7a10.net/forum/index.php?topic=5117.msg34987;topicseen#msg34987

Cheers
John
Title: Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
Post by: wilko on 12.07. 2013 08:33
I'd imagine a lipped seal would distort due to the side pressure of the adaptor being moved forward or back/ The solution to that would be having the gearbox in a permanent position and mounting a plunger type chain adjuster to the back of the chaincase?
Title: Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
Post by: chaterlea25 on 12.07. 2013 10:00
HI Wilko
As on the likes of the Pearson or other lipped seal conversion mine has a close metal to metal fit or bush to keep the seal and shaft concentric
HTH
John
Title: Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
Post by: muskrat on 12.07. 2013 10:09
Funny you say that Wilko. Just did a stator/rotor change on a 06 HD FXDBi. I thought the tensioner set up could be made to fit. Mounted by two 3/8" bolts through the inner cover.
I think I remember a post here where a lipped seal was used and any chain adjustment had to be taken tight and then backed off.
Cheers
Title: Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
Post by: sprint on 12.07. 2013 16:19
HI Andy,
Some time ago I posted on how I modified the sliding plate and fitted an "X" ring seal to a groove machined into a new piece rivited into the plate, the plain centre from SRM would be ripe for this conversion
As I said before I use a cork gasket instead of the felt, the result was a so sucessful I had to add a breather to the fillercap as pressure was building up inside the case !!!!

I did a forum search on the clutch adaptor and it seems that I got involved with a lot of the discussions  *eek*
Some posts are more relavent to your situation than others but it goes to show its a fairly common problem
THere are lots more to be found using different search words

http://www.a7a10.net/forum/index.php?topic=2543.msg16406;topicseen#msg16406
http://www.a7a10.net/forum/index.php/topic,3152.0.html
http://www.a7a10.net/forum/index.php?topic=4550.msg30825;topicseen#msg30825
http://www.a7a10.net/forum/index.php?topic=3685.msg25505;topicseen#msg25505
http://www.a7a10.net/forum/index.php?topic=4928.msg33454;topicseen#msg33454
http://www.a7a10.net/forum/index.php?topic=1003.0
http://www.a7a10.net/forum/index.php?topic=5117.msg34987;topicseen#msg34987

Cheers
John


Thanks John

I am surprised that somebody like SRM have not developed one by now?

Have not had a chance to read in great detail but it certainly looks to be a good idea. However, for me I do not have the workshop facilities to undertake such a modification which in any event could result in many more weeks off the road to implement?

I now have the 8 mm lipped cush drive sleeve and the correct clutch basket should be here next week. Still toying with if I should fit the SRM adapter with the thrust washer, is it really a great benefit? It would loose the scroll and rely on the felt washer to stop he oil escaping, or at least slow it down?

Has anybody had experience of using the felt washer between the adapter and the sliding plate? The sliding plate has 4 raised rivets do/will they not simply tear the felt washer to pieces in a very short time?
Title: Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
Post by: sprint on 16.07. 2013 14:02
Well I hopefully now have all the correct parts so that it can go back together once I have sorted the gearbox bearings?

Unfortunately SRM don't have any of their crank nuts for a couple of weeks, so  I will have to assemble with the original one with plenty of loctite and a split pin, which was missing previously.

Title: Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
Post by: bsa-bill on 16.07. 2013 20:36
Quote
and a split pin, which was missing previously.

oh yes the proverbial disappearing pin, one of life's great mystery's
Title: Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
Post by: morris on 16.07. 2013 21:20
Quote
and a split pin, which was missing previously.

oh yes the proverbial disappearing pin, one of life's great mystery's
And extremely difficult to find a new one! Mine came with a piece of stripped electrical wire to secure the crank nut....
Title: Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
Post by: sprint on 17.07. 2013 08:49
Quote
and a split pin, which was missing previously.

oh yes the proverbial disappearing pin, one of life's great mystery's
And extremely difficult to find a new one! Mine came with a piece of stripped electrical wire to secure the crank nut....

Probably a lot easier to fit than the split pin!
Title: Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
Post by: Topdad on 17.07. 2013 10:28
Just looked at your parts and have got to ask what type of washer that is also where does it go I can't remember having one on mine , Oh s*** I feel a job coming on, if it's important that is ,BobH
Title: Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
Post by: muskrat on 17.07. 2013 10:37
That looks like a '64-'65 clutch hub adapter and thrust washer.
A7/10 ones should look like pic below.
Cheers
Title: Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
Post by: chaterlea25 on 17.07. 2013 11:59
HI Bob, Muskrat,
The pic shows the modified adaptor as supplied by SRM
It allows a friction plate to be placed against the clutch chainwheel as on the later A65's and Trumpets
therefore the spring pressure is not against the innermost plain plate which only has a small lip for support
With the mod the lip can be removed or the innermost friction plate centre hole enlarged to fit over the lip

read back through the thread where I gave a link to it

HTH
John
Title: Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
Post by: sprint on 17.07. 2013 15:41
Just looked at your parts and have got to ask what type of washer that is also where does it go I can't remember having one on mine , Oh s*** I feel a job coming on, if it's important that is ,BobH

Hi Bob

The washer I think you are referring too, copper faced, is because I have decided to fit a SRM clutch adapter. If you look at it you will see that it has a larger back face to a normal adapter so that the large washer fits between the adapter and the back face of the chainwheel. It is supposed to provide more support to the chainwheel and stop 'wobble'?

As I was having to fit a new chainwheel I thought it was a good idea to 'upgrade' the adapter at the same time? So it not something that is missing on your bike, unless you have the SRM adapter fitted, so no need to panic.

It also does away with the scroll to the rear face and uses a felt washer between the adapter and the sliding plate. Not sure if its actually any better than he std scroll in keeping the oil in the chaincase but time will tell.
Title: Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
Post by: Topdad on 17.07. 2013 16:39
Thanks for that and the numerous pictures ,thought for the past 40 yrs I've been missing a part , can now hopefully ride the bike before this glorious weather departs ,best wishes BobH.
Title: Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
Post by: bsa-bill on 17.07. 2013 16:53
Ah now I see - thanks sprint, looks like a useful mod to consider for the future

A picture paints a thousand words
Title: Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
Post by: sprint on 22.07. 2013 21:31
Well, tried to install the new SRM clutch adapter and new chainwheel. On tightening up the clutch center nut the hub and chainwheel locked together.

Took it apart and checked everything and re-fitted, same problem!

Tried the old adapter and no problem, the hub and chainwheel spin independently.  Ring SRM and they more or less say that it can only be guaranteed to work if you buy the whole kit from them as they very often have to machine the parts to fit. It seems that you only have a few thou to play with and sometimes the bearing of the chainwheels need to be machined to fit! Well the old adapter fits, so should the SRM one?

Guess I will live with the original one and the SRM one can go back, pity as having the thrust washer supporting the chainwheel the the right way to go, but if you have to machine parts to fit it's not much use to average guy who just wants to buy and fit.

With the new chainwheel fitted and the correct cush drive sleeve (8 mm deep lip?) I now find that with no shims between the sleeve and the oil seal spacer that the engine sprocket is about a mm or so forward of the chainwheel?

It's difficult with the collar on the chainwheel to get a straight edge between the two sprockets so I have used the clutch rod, see photos.

Can't seem to win with engine! Not possible to space the chainwheel out and I don't want to start machining the cush drive sleeve so is this amount of misalignment to much?
Title: Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
Post by: bsa-bill on 22.07. 2013 22:10
now then just a suggestion but does this not remind me of a too long roller issue someone encountered some time ago
Title: Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
Post by: muskrat on 22.07. 2013 22:30
I was thinking the same thing Bill. But if they work in the old set up they should be right.
Cheers
Title: Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
Post by: trevinoz on 22.07. 2013 22:36
Yeah,
             1/4" x 1/4" rollers are too long and cause lock up.
Original are 1/4" x 15/64".

Trev.
Title: Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
Post by: chaterlea25 on 22.07. 2013 23:33
Hi All,
Andy, Dont despair just yet  *????* *????*
Yes agreed about the rollers,
Andy's bike has the cush type centre fitted
I have come across the same problem when the spider in the cush drive is worn or wear in the plates either side of the spider. The spider can become damaged where it sits against the roller race and then will sit in further closing up the clearance required
It can also happen if the cush drive spider is not located against the rear plate of the cush drive
as there is some (large??) clearance between the spider and side plates
There seems to be very wide (sloppy) tolerances even with new components  *sad2*


The last one I did on a T120 nearly drove me nuts *problem* *problem*
I had to make up a jig which would hold the spider against the rear plate while I fitted the shock rubbers  *work*

HTH
John
Title: Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
Post by: sprint on 23.07. 2013 08:28
Thanks for all the replies.

I should have thought of checking the rollers, but since it works with the old adapter (which should be interchangeable) it points to other factors, possibly those raised by John?

Having taken it apart several times now I am a bit concerned about taking it apart again as torquing to 65 ft/lb's and pulling it off the taper so many times is not doing any favors to the parts?

I think at the moment as it works with the old adapter I should try to get a few miles on the bike and re-visit this at a later time?

What is the opinion on the sprocket alignment? I currently have the engine sprocket too far forward by about 1 mm or so with no shims fitted?  

UPDATE

Well, as they say curiosity ................

Not wanting to be defeated by possible oversize rollers I removed the chainwheel. All bearings measure between 5.93 and 5.98 mm, all well below the 6.35 mm which is 1/4", so they are not the problem.

Across the faces' of the central bearing of the chainwheel it measures 6.14 mm, the same as the old chainwheel.

Fitted the new chainwheel to the SRM adapter, first with the thrust washer fitted and slid a ruler down the side of the adapter until it rested on the lip where the hub sits and find that there is no clearance between the lip and the face of the chainwheel. Fitting the hub and applying hand pressure bind the two together.

Removed the thrust washer and there is now clearance between the lip and the chainwheel. Clearly there is not enough clearance and the lip needs to be slightly higher to allow clearance when the thrust washer is fitted?

Back face of the hub/spider is fine.
Title: Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
Post by: chaterlea25 on 24.07. 2013 00:06
HI Andy,
Have you compared the old and new chainwheel thickness at the bearing race?
I think I remember that you were buying one from a Triumph supplier????
If they are the same I would send the pics to the guys at SRM and ask them to measure a chain wheel thickness

As already said sloppy tolerances from somewhere or other *problem* *problem* *problem*
=  *work* *work* *work*

John
Title: Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
Post by: sprint on 24.07. 2013 08:54
Checked both baskets and they are both the same at approx 6.13/14 mm. The chainwheel came from Wilemans, but it is sold by L F Harris for both Triumph and BSA:

This listing is for one New and unused clutch basket/ chainwheel .

As fitted to Triumph pre unit models and BSA A7 A10 late models fitted with the four spring type clutch.

Part number : 57-1549,42-3266


SRM sent the following details:

Clutch basket thickness = 0.241" to 0.242" = 6.12mm to 6.146mm
Thrust washer thickness = 0.053" = 1.346mm
 
Distance centre drum location face to back face where thrust washer sits = 0.296"- 0.2968" = 7.52mm -7.54mm
 
Deduct thrust washer from the above if u use lower limit which leaves less room 7.52mm minus 1.346mm = 6.17mm so should be clearance for drum to rotate after centre nut is tightened.
 
Ensure the hardened ring pressed into the chainwheel basket is flush both sides, sometimes i have seen these pressed in too far or little which in effect increases the chainwheel width and will make the basket lock up.


So the basket bearing dimension is OK, so it has to be down to SRM adapter as they recon I should be OK up to 6.17 mm and I have 6.14 mm? Thrust washer measures 1.35 mm.
Title: Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
Post by: chaterlea25 on 25.07. 2013 00:03
Hi Andy
Could you post a pic of the back of the clutch centre where it buts up against the adaptor bearing shoulder?
I will take a pic or two of a couple tomorrow ( I think I may still have one with slight damage which caused lockup)

JOhn
Title: Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
Post by: sprint on 25.07. 2013 08:28
Hi Andy
Could you post a pic of the back of the clutch centre where it buts up against the adaptor bearing shoulder?
I will take a pic or two of a couple tomorrow ( I think I may still have one with slight damage which caused lockup)

JOhn


Hi John

Couple of photos as requested.

Mine looks to be OK?

Regards

Andy
Title: Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
Post by: sprint on 25.07. 2013 14:12
SRM have sent me a thinner thrust washer, approx 1.29 mm (0.051") which seems to have solved the problem.

Basket does not 'freewheel' when spun but does so with slight resistance, which I would hope would would go once bedded in and not bind/lock with thermal expansion?

The only issue now is the engine and the chainwheel sprocket alignments?

With the 8 mm lipped cush drive sleeve fitted I can get three different alignment readings depending on where I take the straight edge from?  

If I place the straight edge across the engine sprocket to the top face of the chainwheel sprocket it shows that the E/S is too far forward by about 1 mm. If I try to take the straight edge across the top face of the chainwheel sprocket it shows that the E/S need to come forward by about 1 mm? In either case it is not easy to get any sort of straight edge across the chainwheel face of the sprocket because of the raised collar which is so close the the sprocket face.

If I place a straight ruler from the center of the E/S to the center of the chainwheel it indicates correct alignment?

What is the best/correct way to check the two sprocket alignments?




Title: Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
Post by: chaterlea25 on 25.07. 2013 23:01
Hi Andy,
AHA  *ex* *ex* *ex*
Look carefully at the inner splines in the clutch cush drive spider
They are fractionally below the flat surface of the rest of the components
this is whats causing the binding up, allowing the centre move towards the chain wheel when tightened up
Glad the thinner thrust washer will work as this is an easier way out

I normally align the primary drive before fitting the inner primary casing,
I use a length of 8mm square steel bar (key steel) to check along the rear of the sprockets

If each of your measurements oppose each other, then you cannot be far out  *????* *????* *????*

HTH
John
Title: Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
Post by: sprint on 26.07. 2013 09:06
Hi Andy,
AHA  *ex* *ex* *ex*
Look carefully at the inner splines in the clutch cush drive spider
They are fractionally below the flat surface of the rest of the components
this is whats causing the binding up, allowing the centre move towards the chain wheel when tightened up
Glad the thinner thrust washer will work as this is an easier way out

I normally align the primary drive before fitting the inner primary casing,
I use a length of 8mm square steel bar (key steel) to check along the rear of the sprockets

If each of your measurements oppose each other, then you cannot be far out  *????* *????* *????*

HTH
John

Thanks John.

Is the slight undercut, or wear, on the internal edge of the splines not normal with the cush drive hub?

Fortunately the thinner thrust washer has solved the problem.

Have managed to pull and hold the clutch rod across the back face of the chainwheel and then rotate it down across the back face of the engine sprocket. Doing that a 1.5 mm spacer give correct alignment, this is with the 8 mm lipped sleeve.

I guess that makes sense as that is roughly the amount that I have had to remove from the outside face of the inner case bottom lug to give clearance where it mounts on the frame. For whatever the reason it seem that the engine is 1 to 2 mm further over to the left that it should be?

At least everything now seems to be aligned so I can put it back together.

Andy

Andy
Title: Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
Post by: chaterlea25 on 26.07. 2013 22:30
HI Andy
When the clutch centre nut is tightened to 65ft/lbs all the pressure is exerted on those tiny shoulders in the cush drive, they deform under the pressure  *sad2*
Assemble the clutch so as the chainwheel is kept solid on the shaft, and tighten up the bottom gearbox bolt to make sure the box is sitting squarely in the engine plates
Having the primary chain tensioner on the far side doesnt help
Then check alignment again

Hope it all goes well
Let us know how it goes

John
Title: Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
Post by: sprint on 27.07. 2013 19:35
Hi John

I had both top and bottom G/B nuts done up tight as was the clutch center nut when I checked the alignment, 1.5 mm is what it seems to need?

The bike is now fully together again, just got to put G/B and C/C oils in and should be ready to roll again once the sun come out again.

Thanks for all of your help and patience which has been very much appreciated, as it has been from everybody who has helped/advised.

Andy 
Title: Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
Post by: muskrat on 28.07. 2013 08:50
Great news Andy. Hope you still have some hair  *pull hair out*.
I'm still a little baffled that you had to remove metal from the rear primary mount.
Cheers
Title: Re: Clutch and shock absorber problems
Post by: sprint on 28.07. 2013 20:26
Great news Andy. Hope you still have some hair  *pull hair out*.
I'm still a little baffled that you had to remove metal from the rear primary mount.
Cheers

Thanks

Can't explain myself since I bought the bike fully assembled?

Removed about 1.5 mm so that when both cases were bolted together there was enough for a piece of paper to pass between the lug and the frame. Not going to strip the whole bike apart just to find out, but everything is now working so I will enjoy riding it for now and hopefully nothing more will come out of the woodwork?

Have now done about 40 miles since putting it all back together and the clutch is now working fine.