The BSA A7-A10 Forum

Technical => Frame => Topic started by: a101960 on 26.07. 2013 07:40

Title: tank liner
Post by: a101960 on 26.07. 2013 07:40
Problem solved. I went to have a look to see if I could find anything that was causing the slide to stick. It is efinol. The slide was covered in a horrible tacky varnish like substance, as was the needle and jet. My mate then told me that over the winter he had had the tank lined. Oh dear!

John
Title: tank liner
Post by: wilko on 27.07. 2013 00:32
I'll never understand why people keep lining their tanks when they don't leak?
Title: tank liner
Post by: bsa-bill on 27.07. 2013 11:27
[quoteI'll never understand why people keep lining their tanks when they don't leak?][/quote]

Oops wilko - I'm guilty as charged, lined it due to it getting rusty inside while waiting for the rest of the bike to get put together, it's an Indian tank I should have filled it with something when I put it away in the shed, thought the powdery rust would cause problems so sealed it with an Ethanol proof liner, I think I could  remove it (might peel off) someday if it causes problems but so far it's good.
Title: tank liner
Post by: Triton Thrasher on 27.07. 2013 11:48
I'll never understand why people keep lining their tanks when they don't leak?

Because it's something they can buy for their bike and the adverts say it's a great thing to do.
Title: tank liner
Post by: Lord Flashheart on 31.07. 2013 13:34
OK ,      Apol's if this is getting off topic, but -------
The perceived wisdom on tank lining seems to be, -don't do it !

I have a spare tank which I intend to get re-finished in the near future. This tank has stood (outdoors) for a long period with ethanol fuel, has absorbed water, and consequently has much orange sludge and 'crusty' areas in the lower levels. 

For the sake of clarity, are we saying do NOT use liners (even the ones claiming to be 'proof') when fuels containing ethanol are used, due to risk of liner break-down gumming-up the carb. ? I can see that this might be more difficult to deal with than rust in the filter and /or jets.

What then does our experience tell us about using only the de-rusting pre-treatments that come with the liner ?  My industrial metal-finishing experience suggests that etching the surface, to clean and promote adhesion, may be opening up another 'can of worms' ?

Do two stroke tanks suffer the same problems ?  I have heard it said that a small shot of oil in the tank once in a while may hold back corrosion, whether this is true i'm not sure but a bit of 'Castrol R' would sure spice things up a bit.  *smile*
Your views gents,;
Pete.
Title: tank liner
Post by: bsa-bill on 31.07. 2013 14:56
Quote
de-rusting pre-treatments that come with the liner ?

I found it a bit like painting the Forth Bridge, treat the rust, wash with water, result more rust, probably if I could have got it dry quickly somehow (an oven - but the paint?) would have been good but the shape of the tank perverted thorough drying even with a hotair gun
Title: tank liner
Post by: chaz on 01.08. 2013 12:36
tank treating... you ask
its all down to expense..
treat the tank for £20 or pay £250 for another simples.

we get customers in on modern superbikes dont want to pay for new tanks so they are lined, we get customers with classics, dont mind spending £1000 on a engine rebuild but dont want a new tank because of availability/manufacture/cost/its still useable.

My Laverda tank was religious, (holy) , without a lot of welding not really useable. no remanufactured about, second hand I paid £250 from Holland and needs a spray. someone aoofered another with dents they would fill and spray for £450. what options? I paid the £250 and have a solid, albiet the wrong colour and a couple of dings, tank now as for my old one coating would not fill the holes but once welded you would have to coat it just to seal. but I might cover the cost.

Now the A10, I used Kreem on and it got too hot, crazed the paint and a bit I spilled on the outside marked it. they dont tell you to use the protective coating on the outside before you do the job. what makes it worse is the treatment comes in a sealed pack of 3 bottles, the protective is a seperate order!!
the Petseal Ive usd in the past , Ive yet to hear of any problems!!

Ethanol should be branded as a paint stripper, seems to affetc bikes more than cars due to the lower mileage and storage we do.
Title: Re: tank liner
Post by: muskrat on 02.08. 2013 14:10
I have used both KBS and Por15. The only "come back" was with a HD tank that flexed a bit when the mounts were over tightened. The KBS cracked.
To remove coatings use 250 ml of good quality paint stripper left in for a few days/week. May take a few go's, but it will work.
Extreme care to protect the outside paintwork. I wrap tank in a few layers of gladwrap (clingwrap), cut out filler hole and use gaffer tape around the neck.
Cheers
Title: Re: tank liner
Post by: chaterlea25 on 02.08. 2013 17:05
Hi All

"
Extreme care to protect the outside paintwork. I wrap tank in a few layers of gladwrap (clingwrap), cut out filler hole and use gaffer tape around the neck."

Unless theres a pinhole or worse anywhere in the tank which then leaves you having to fork out for a paintjob aswell *angry* *angry* *angry* *angry*
Dont ask how I know  *eek* *eek* *eek*

John
Title: Re: tank liner
Post by: wilko on 03.08. 2013 01:25
Just solder any leaks. Been doing it for years.
Title: Re: tank liner
Post by: Sparky on 20.10. 2013 17:29
Since fuel tank sealers are obviously designed to seal tanks containing "fuel", is it the belief that it is the ethanol content in the gas that is causing the problem rather than the petrolium distillates themselves?  I was wondering if anyone been able to avoid gumming up the carburetor by using ethanol-free gas in a tank with a liner.  I have discovered a local supplier of E0 93 (and 100) octane gas, and thought I would give it a try.  The slightly higher cost would be well worth it to avoid tearing down the carburetor again.
Title: Re: tank liner
Post by: muskrat on 20.10. 2013 20:01
G'day Sparky. Yes it's the ethanol that's causing the problem. I coated my '51's tank some 15 years ago with the old Kreem tank liner. It's still in there sealing the leak. I never ever use fuel containing any ethanol in any of my bikes. The Kreem will dissolve if it comes within a mile of ethanol.
Cheers
Title: Re: tank liner
Post by: duTch on 20.10. 2013 22:36

 I sealed over a small hole and a minor leakage with Devcon 'Liquid Steel'...(must've used a different brand for something else in the past), seems to work ok after a couple of years.

  My local 'old bike' shop BJ's sells stuff called Red-Cote, reckons it works good, single tin application, dilute with acetone and pour in enough to coat the entire surface (?) brochure says it's Methanol 'resistant', but can't find a mention of Ethanol.
 Dissolves with acetone, and tank can apparently be retreated easily by just adding another coating...??

 I am not endorsing it and haven't used it, until I know more about it or till absolute necessary..

   http://damonq.com/Red-Kote.html (http://damonq.com/Red-Kote.html)

  cheers
Title: Re: tank liner
Post by: Sparky on 21.10. 2013 01:44
Thanks for the confirmation, Muskrat.  It gives me hope that with the right fuel, I won't have to try and strip out the liner.

The product in my tank is, in fact, Red Kote.  After restarting the bike after it sat idle for three months over the summer (sounds crazy but here in the Southwest desert, it's too dang hot to ride in the summer!), the engine was rough and wouldn't idle.  I pulled the carb, and found tacky varnish everywhere.  I drained the tank, and the fuel was red, so obviously the liner was being effected by the fuel.  We have 10% ethanol fuel, and it probably didn't help sitting in a really hot garage for those months, but I'm here to tell you that Red Kote is NOT impervious to ethanol.  I am planning to add some ethanol-free fuel to the tank and then draining it out after a few weeks.  If it's clear, put it in gear; if it's red, oh dread!
Title: Re: tank liner
Post by: duTch on 21.10. 2013 07:56


 good stuff Sparky, thanks for the feedback, so how long has the Red-Kote been in there ?
Be good to know the difference after using e-free fuel for a while ?
 It seems that if you need to remove it, just add acetone which will dissolve it, and drain(maybe easier said than done)

 good luck

 Just out of curiosity, when you say ' desert, hot, southwest'...is that like Roadrunner/Coyote/Highway 69 country...with those funny hills that go straight up (mesas? Pesos?), and Rattlesnakes..and sidewinders.??
Title: Re: tank liner
Post by: muskrat on 21.10. 2013 09:39
G'day Sparky.
Red Coat says " A partial list of additives that Red-Kote is resistant to includes ethyl alcohol, methyl alcohol, toluene, methyl tertiary butyl ether, isopropyl alcohol and tetraethyl lead."
I spose resistant isn't impervious.
Yep try some ethanol free fuel.
Cheers
Title: Re: tank liner
Post by: Sparky on 21.10. 2013 14:17
The Red Kote was allowed to dry for at least 9 months while I worked on other items, and then had E10 fuel sitting in it for about a year before I noticed the problems, so in fairness to their advertising, I guess I could say it is "resistant".  Had I been riding more regularly, perhaps the turnover of fuel in the tank would have reduced the leeching out of whatever it is in the liner that the ethanol attacks.  I will definitely report on my experience with E0 gas.

The Roadrunner/Coyote landscape is actually stylized from northern Arizona and southern Utah, but in fact the big saguaro cactus you see in the cartoon only lives in southern Arizona (where I am) and northern Mexico, so they took a bit of artistic license.  Mesa is the term for those flat top mountains (it means "table" in Spanish).  And yes, we also have rattlesnakes and scorpions.  Here is a picture of a real roadrunner who got into an addition we were putting on the house... 
Title: Re: tank liner
Post by: duTch on 21.10. 2013 15:14

 Yahoo, a real live (I hope) Roady Runner, and a friend whose brother lives in Californi.. had a Woodpecker come knock knock knockin on his door the other day....just enough cartoonery for the week, next thing we'll have - whoops sorry, gettin' off track...

  Thanks Sparks, Will stay tuned for further updates, save to say-  'Resistant' can be fairly open for interpretation......
 Musky:- possibly splitting hairs, but is that 'A partial list of additives that Red-Kote is resistant to', or 'A list of additives that Red-Kote is partially resistant to.'...?

  on a slight aside, I fuelled up just now, and noted an absence of e-fuel(ent), at the servo I go to, normally I use BP Ultimate98, but as an experiment figured I'd try 91 and see, but that's probably fuel for a different topic......!!
Title: Re: tank liner
Post by: bsa-bill on 21.10. 2013 18:11
 this may seem a bit naive but is Red-kote red.
My tank was chromed and painted about 13 years ago and lined with red stuff, I've had no problems at all with it and E (there's not ours)   

Have had a slight issue with the RGF -carb flooded ( with an onlooker of course), weenie little black dust like stuff in the float chamber. reckon it stuck the needle, maybe viton off the tip or inside of the supposedly E proof fuel pipe, anyway I'll watch it for a while and see if the black stuff re-appears
Title: Re: tank liner
Post by: Sparky on 22.10. 2013 02:27
Bill-

Yes, Red Kote is red.  Our usual 91 octane pump gas is colorless, so when it came out of the tank looking like beat juice, my suspicions were aroused.  I just finished dumping a couple of gallons of ethanol-free petrol in the tank, so we'll see what happens.  While the carb was off anyway for de-gumming, I decided it was also time to have it resleeved, so in a few weeks when I get it back, I'll drain off a bit of fuel from the tank and see how it looks.
Title: Re: tank liner
Post by: Sparky on 12.11. 2013 04:24
OK, here is the follow-up.  I put some 100 octane ethanol-free gas in the tank.  After three weeks, the gas came out of the taps clear, so I am relieved that the Red Kote liner holds up to pure gasoline (er, I mean petrol).  I was really not looking forward to trying to strip the liner out of the tank without harming my paint job.

While the fuel sat in the tank, I was also getting my carb resleeved.  That, of course, is a topic covered in other threads, but I must say, it came back really nicely done.  This afternoon, I reassembled the carb and fired up the engine.  Wow, what a difference.  Even before it was fully warmed up, the engine idled down smoothly and responded well to throttle.  The question then is; was the improvement from removing ethanol from the fuel, resleeving the carb, or from using 100 octane fuel?  I suspect all three played a factor, but I am primarily relieved that removing the ethanol from the fuel seems to have halted the deterioration of my tank liner.



Title: Re: tank liner
Post by: duTch on 12.11. 2013 08:35

Good one sparks, hope it all hangs in there, may;ve said before, but what I was told is that acetone will dissolve it, and it can be reused too....?
 Just curious, but what Carb do you have again..? aah no matter, I'll catch it in the other tropics
Title: Re: tank liner
Post by: chaterlea25 on 12.11. 2013 23:20
Hi ALL
Q, Whats the best thing for removing tank liner  *????* *????*
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Ans, petrol with ethanol  *ex* *ex* *ex* *ex*

Title: Re: tank liner
Post by: Sparky on 13.11. 2013 00:15
Hi ALL
Q, Whats the best thing for removing tank liner  *????* *????*


I'll second that!!!!

Dutch,  it's a monobloc 389.
Title: Re: tank liner
Post by: muskrat on 13.11. 2013 08:54
I've still got a 20lt drum of 99% Indy grade methanol. I know it works on tank liners. DAMHIN.
Cheers
Title: Re: tank liner
Post by: bsa-bill on 13.11. 2013 11:13
Quote
Whats the best thing for removing tank liner

Should read "some tank liners"
Sorry to get pedantic but we do need to be careful here in not blaming ethanol for every case of disaster, otherwise we run the risk of missing the real cause in some cases.

case in point my monoblock flooded all by itself a month back, examining the float chamber I found a small amount of very fine black dust - suspects that sprang to mind

1. ethanol attacked the viton tip of the float needle
2. ethanol attack on the  (ethanol proof) fuel lines
3. fine dirt in petrol

I cleaned out the dust and put back the same needle, ran some fuel through a tissue - nothing, so far the carb has not flooded again but I'll keep an eye on it.
My money would be on a fill of dirty fuel at some time
Title: Re: tank liner
Post by: Sparky on 14.11. 2013 13:20
As an aside on my liner experience noted above, when I removed the carb I found the fuel lines had become quite stiff.  This was only after one year and a mere 135 miles of riding since I put them on.  I fished out the remaining section of fuel line I had cut them from in my collection of bits, and it was as supple as the day I bought it.  I've had fuel lines turn rock hard after years of use, but this rather surprised me.  This is good quality hose designed for fuel, so I am wondering if it might be another ethanol-related phenomenon or just the consequence of sitting inches behind a hot cylinder.  I will definitely keep in mind the potential for accelerated deterioration, however.
Title: Re: tank liner
Post by: bsa-bill on 14.11. 2013 17:21
Quote
so I am wondering if it might be another ethanol-related phenomenon or just the consequence of sitting inches behind a hot cylinder

Just what I was hinting at Sparky, generally there could be an alternative reason for whatever, (that's not to discount Ethanol tho just take account of what else is going on)
and thinking about it didn't that clear tubing we used back in the day go brittle after some time (requiring a new bit of wire to twist around it  *smiley4*)