The BSA A7-A10 Forum

Technical => Lucas, Electrical, Ignition => Topic started by: muskrat on 13.01. 2014 19:10

Title: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: muskrat on 13.01. 2014 19:10
 Manosound raised the question about a poll to see how many of us have converted to 12 volt systems.
If you have a bike on each system (1 on 6 and 1 on 12) vote for your favorite and reply to the post with your thoughts.
Sorry to jump in Richard, I've never started a poll so I thought I'd better see how it's done. *smile*
Cheers
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: muskrat on 13.01. 2014 19:27
I first converted to 12 volt on my racer (1992) so I could run electronic ignition. I had a total loss system (no charging). I saw the results (trophy's) almost straight away. Years later after retiring from racing the '51's mag was playing up so I put the racers ignition on her and used a converting reg. Now the racer is on the road as my cafe all 3 of my BSA's are 12 volt.
Safety is a good feature. The horn doesn't just go beep, it goes GET OUT OF MY WAY. *whistle*
Cheers
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: groily on 13.01. 2014 20:01
Good plan, and the results will be interesting!

I'm a committed 12v person, whether alternator (late B31 and Oilfields converted using simple rectifier/regulator options and/or upgraded stators) or dynamo (AMC twins and A10). To begin with I retained my A at 6v, but gave in a while back and went 12v when she needed a battery.

All with DVR2s, courtesy of Manormike. No probs, but I live in the relative back of beyond and don't do traffic much, so higher cut-in speeds don't matter. Decent size batteries in all cases, wet ones for me, ranging from 8amp hours to about 12 depending on space.

One nice thing is the ability to use heated grips on a dynamo bike on the open road, if headlight kept down to 35W halogen and if original thick dynamo windings retained, when there are 80W available all the time at cruising speeds.

No way back for me, unless I lived in a town. Which will never happen unless/until senility steals the decision-making faculties.
Cheers, Bill
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: Brian on 13.01. 2014 22:28
I have converted both my A10's and my s/arm B33 to 12v. Std generaters with DVR2's. The A10's both have Manortech belt drive conversions.

The better lighting is an advantage but I dont do a lot of night riding on my old bikes anymore, the main advantage is being able to buy globes easily plus there is a lot wider range of batteries available in 12v.
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: scotty on 13.01. 2014 22:33
staying with 6v

S
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: WozzA on 13.01. 2014 22:46
12 Volt for me also..  Trevinoz restored my old Gen rewinding it to 12 Volt Neg to Earth at my request,
coupled to a DVR2 ..   12 Volt globes are available at any servo or auto accessory outlet.
& I use a 12 Volt trickle charger which I swap from bike to bike to keep the battery's in tip top condition.  *smile*
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: RichardL on 13.01. 2014 22:58
Well, this isn't exactly what I meant, since it won't return the results as raw number. Nevertheless, mine is 6V.

What I meant was something like that which is available here: http://pollcode.com/ .   Just going to this site to see what I meant won't be a problem, but I didn't want to take the chance of sending people off into some malware site for my lack of knowledge.

Richard L.
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: scotty on 13.01. 2014 23:13
Richard

Did you see the poll question/answer at the head of the OP.

It has the response totals to each question

S

Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: RichardL on 13.01. 2014 23:16
Scotty,

Thanks. Too much hurry. I missed that.

Richard L.
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: wilko on 13.01. 2014 23:31
Here in rural Oz it doesn't matter because you will get killed by suicidal kangaroos at night time. No night riding here since animal lovers have decided that 50 million kangas are endangered!
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: Ethelred on 13.01. 2014 23:35
perhaps this needs widening to include magneto v coil as that's usually part of the equation.
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: RichardL on 14.01. 2014 00:26
Is that for real about no night riding? Perhaps you could argue that the roos are unlikely to be attracted to a dim 6V headlight.

Richard L.
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: WozzA on 14.01. 2014 02:16
Is that for real about no night riding? Perhaps you could argue that the roos are unlikely to be attracted to a dim 6V headlight.

Richard L.

My word they are...   you cant even light a cigarette with a match @ night without risking being mugged by them..  or the drop bears...  *help*
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: Brian on 14.01. 2014 02:35
You have problems with drop bears as well Wozza, their a damn nuisance over here. Something should be done about them.
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: Seabee on 14.01. 2014 13:00
I've stayed with 6V on both of my bikes.  I'm a purist when I possibly can be.  No offense to 12 volters, just my perspective....... (Oh, and I don't ride at night!) *smile*
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: Topdad on 14.01. 2014 13:16
Hi everyone , mines coverted to 12v .I didn't think much about at the time I'd been off bikes for some years and just thought 12v would be easier to get bulbs etc for. Also as I was starting from basically a box of bits I was able to pick up info from bike mags and the BSAOC forum and then fit as I got to the electrics .I fitted a Hawker reg and I think He rewound the dynamo as well and used his beltdrive conversion and have had no probs in 8 yrs other than a slight drop in charge rate last year due I suspect to the belt either picking up some oil or needing adjustment,I'll sort that in the next month or so .One of the best benefits ,for me ,was being able to use LED bulbs from our Mr gooff and again I'll be upgrading my head light bulb from him shortly. Be interesting to hear how many are "converted " best wishes BobH.
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: Topdad on 14.01. 2014 13:26
Someones got to ask, what the hells a drop bear ?? and aren't you allowed to shoot roos anymore ?? regards BobH
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: a10gf on 14.01. 2014 13:58
My experience with 6V, fitted halogen, 10W pilot for day riding & 35W for night = both light and charging working fine.
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: muskrat on 14.01. 2014 18:46
http://australianmuseum.net.au/Drop-Bear
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: RichardL on 14.01. 2014 18:58
The world-wide search for the biggest BSers is officially ended.
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: madsens on 14.01. 2014 19:14
Hej
I'm running standard 6v and magnet with no problems - but have been considering 12v conversion with dynamo belt drive as well - as I would like to put LED indicators on the bike (anyone with tips and tricks about that?) and of course getting bulps would also be easier...

Joergen
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: bsa-bill on 14.01. 2014 21:47
After some thought I voted for twelve although I run both, 12 volt for Eclectronic ignition on the Rocket but won't be converting the six volt Flash though.
On balance it's something that can be done to improve the bike safety without altering the look of the bike
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: duTch on 14.01. 2014 22:39

   I have 6v, also with halogen lights (35/35, 21/5), but apart from a battery to engine case earth for the generator, I have no battery to frame-earth connection but run good (10A) earth wire to all services. Tail/brake light is nice and bright, but in ambient (streetlight) areas, I have to check with 'hand-over' if the headlight is on..... *conf*

 The new aftermarket horn also scares the crap outta me. ...when I accidentally knock it *eek*

  When I collect my young fella from the airport, I wait out the back where there's a bushland reserve, and last time I coulda sworn I saw one (D.B) run out of the bushes and across the tarmac ...if it got into the landing gear it could end up anywhere *eek*

 They're tenacious critters...do anything for a drop..!!
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: Topdad on 15.01. 2014 10:40
Methinks I agree with Richards assumption, regards BobH.
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: WozzA on 16.01. 2014 09:22
Methinks I agree with Richards assumption, regards BobH.

You blokes must be talking about that Musky bugger...   *whistle*
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: cyclobutch on 16.01. 2014 11:51
Yeah clicked my vote.

Happy to stay with mag and 6v. Keep things simple. Nice bright headlight too, only problem being the lens - dip shows up the mascot on my front guard just lovely, high beam gets me in trouble down the way at Stansted. Quiet squeaky cheap aftermarket horn though.
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: morris on 16.01. 2014 22:37
Pretty happy with the 6v setup, certainly after installing the dynamo belt drive on the SA. Will keep the plunger to 6v also.
But then again, I'm a kind of nostalgic person.... ;)
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: Pecon on 20.01. 2014 21:15
I'm also 6 Volt however I've fitted a couple of 12V Cree LED driving lights by using a magic box I found on eBay which allows 12V items to be used with 6V systems. It was designed to run 12V radios and the like on old US cars. I also fitted a 6V halogen side light and some red 6V LED's to the rear. All helped by using a dynamo belt drive to increase charging.

Peter
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: KeithJ on 05.02. 2014 10:24
staying with 6v

S
Care to share your thoughts on why?
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: RichardL on 05.02. 2014 14:44
Having now received votes from an astounding 5% of the membership, I believe we can say with complete confidence that there is a clear and definitive preference or prevalence of 6V systems on our bikes.    *conf* *whistle*

Richard L.
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: Billybream on 05.02. 2014 15:44
I,m still on 6 volts, never ride at night now, and only fair weather adventures.
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: RichardL on 05.02. 2014 15:52
Billy,

Did you vote at the top of page one of this topic?

Ricahrd L.
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: KeithJ on 05.02. 2014 18:32
Having now received votes from an astounding 5% of the membership, I believe we can say with complete confidence that there is a clear and definitive preference or prevalence of 6V systems on our bikes.    *conf* *whistle*

Richard L.
I don't think that necessarily follows.  Need to know what the 5% of this forums membership is compared to the total number of bikes still around?
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: RichardL on 05.02. 2014 18:45
Having now received votes from an astounding 5% of the membership, I believe we can say with complete confidence that there is a clear and definitive preference or prevalence of 6V systems on our bikes.    *conf* *whistle*

Richard L.
I don't think that necessarily follows.  Need to know what the 5% of this forums membership is compared to the total number of bikes still around?

...on "our" bikes. [Again,  *whistle*]
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: KiwiGF on 05.02. 2014 19:05
I voted for 6v but have to eat lots of carrots before venturing out at night....

I'l try 12v on my B31 project and see how that goes, but as the dynamo is gear driven I will not be able to speed the dynamo up, but on the other hand the engine will most ljkely get a good thrashing at all times.......



Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: KeithJ on 05.02. 2014 19:13
Gave up with 6V after seeing the beam being blown to one side in a very strong wind one dark night.
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: muskrat on 05.02. 2014 19:27
I am surprised really. 12v can be achieved without any outward signs. They must be making 6v heated grips now!
Cheers
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: KeithJ on 05.02. 2014 19:32
I am surprised really. 12v can be achieved without any outward signs. They must be making 6v heated grips now!
Cheers
Same as 12V but must have them wired so they only switch on one at a time! *wave*
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: RichardL on 05.02. 2014 21:14
Gave up with 6V after seeing the beam being blown to one side in a very strong wind one dark night.

 *lol*
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: duTch on 06.02. 2014 08:43
Quote
Gave up with 6V after seeing the beam being blown to one side in a very strong wind one dark night.

  Not so bad if it comes back to centre after the wind drops off......??? :!

 I've lost track of the benefits- (which I'm sure have been covered)
   Is "60W"@12V actually brighter than 60"W" @ 6V? The way I understand it is the genny is still arbitrarily ~60W/6Vx10A, so @ 12V there is still ~60W (12V x 5A)
  Benefits being less voltage drop, which on 6v, can be rectified with thicker wire and availability and wattage selection of 12v bulbs, but will not higher wattage work the system harder.....?
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: bsa-bill on 06.02. 2014 09:20
 genny is still arbitrarily ~60W/6Vx10A (http://genny is still arbitrarily ~60W/6Vx10A)

Not quite sure that's right duTch, what you quote is what the regulator allows, The dynamo voltage varies with it's revs and is often quoted as 12 volts or more (depends on individual dynamo)
I read 18 volts on mine when testing.
Also 12 allows better bulbs to be used (halogen bulbs can be had for 6 volt but for BPF they do alter the beam)
Battery comes into this as well, if you have a good battery then the lights should not dim even if he dynamo fails to deliver 6 or 12

(will keep calling it a dynamo - generator )
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: duTch on 06.02. 2014 10:18

 yeah Bill, I think that kind've what I meant, which reminds me that I think Musky(?) said a 12v reg will do the job.....I think I need to reread that...all a bit heady *conf*

 Guess one day when I'm bored, I'll test the 'dynie' output-( is that by connecting D+F to + and body to - on the meter...???)

 FTR- I have been using a 6V 35/35 halogen in a H4 Hella glass, and have a 35/35 halogen BPF in a 'Lucas' glass which I haven't road tested yet.

 Don't want this pickle, just wanna....
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: Clive54bsa on 07.02. 2014 04:03
I'm not sure of the "laws" but I don't think DC voltage works the same as AC, where if you double the voltage, you halve the amperage. I converted my '61 to 12v pos earth and noticed that I blew an inline 5 amp fuse I had installed, at night, with the lights on, when I pressed the horn button. I checked my Alltette horn and it was drawing nearly nine amps. I adjusted the horn as best I could and although I could change the sound, I could not reduce the amperage. I then swapped it to my '54 Golden Flash (still 6v), and the horn drew 4 amps. My solution was to put in a 10amp fuse, no problem now. So in my case a doubling of the voltage, doubled the current drawn. I'm sure someone out there can explain this phenoma.
My reason for converting iin the first place was that my regulator was boiling my battery, so I wanted to use a Boyer regulator and my dealer suggested I change to 12v, brighter lights, easier access to bulbs etc. Can't say if it's so much better.
Clive 
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: denis on 07.02. 2014 08:14
Hi all, I'm on 6v positive earth, the day my dvr2 'll need replacement,  i'll probably go for for 12V, just to see what happens..

Denis
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: bsa-bill on 07.02. 2014 08:48
Quote
Can't say if it's so much better.

I think the bulbs are better Clive, but again difficult to compare due to variables, my 70s Mini did not have anywhere as good  lights as my present Focus.

I think (but stand to be corrected) that the laws are the same for direct and alternating current - ye canna change the laws o phiysics Jim
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: KiwiGF on 07.02. 2014 09:09
hi Denis, i'm not sure if all dvr2's are the same but in case it makes a difference to your plans my dvr2 can be configured to be 6v positive earth or 12v positive earth so i can convert to 12v without having to buy another one.
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: trevinoz on 07.02. 2014 22:20
With AC, a little thing called power factor comes into play which determines the current draw.
However, all of our bikes are DC whether generator or alternator equipped

Trev..
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: Gavin on 08.02. 2014 08:41
Hi Musky, I think its a great concept this here poll. But I am afraid I may have messed it up a little. You ask at the beginning for those who have both 12v and 6v systems to respond to the poll. I only have the 6v system and I was sucked in and replied... and I fear others may be guilty of the same... and perhaps even some more (seemingly) enlightened 12 volters will have short circuited the purity of the poll as well.

Now the real issue with the poll outcome is... you look like having a mix of responders... owners of 6v 12v and both. How you evaluate that across a forum of "mixed" voltage owners I am not sure....

I recon that ya total numbers at the end of each line will give a great general overview. Pure mathematical excellence in the poll regarding the number of forum members is irrelevant to the outcomes.

Yep... I am a dull 6v owner and likely to stay that way as I build a second bike. Far too many drop bears here for night riding.
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: wilko on 08.02. 2014 22:01
I think everybody should get out more often!
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: denis on 13.02. 2014 19:04
Hi KiwiGF,

Yes , that's right, my dvr2 is for both 6 or 12.  It's for positive or negative earth that it makes a difference.  So as for changing from 6 to 12 V you then only need a 12V battery, 12V lightbulbs and hope your dynamo won't notice?   

Thx, Denis
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: KiwiGF on 14.02. 2014 10:57
hi denis, yep your dynamo wont notice i reckon albeit there are posts on this forum saying otherwise eg some over heating, theres a wire on the dvr2 that needs adding/changing to make it 12v. It does mean the battery wont start charging until the engine hits more rpm though, compared to when its only required to make 6v.

A 6v horn should sound louder and still work on 12v by all accounts!
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: warmshed on 17.02. 2014 16:01
The fact you say you have belt drive means that the probability is that you have an increase in dynamo speed, Most if not all kits are made this way. The DVR2 belt drive is faster than the SRM one.
this will reduce the engine speed to balance out the load .

You really cant beat (my thoughts ) 12 volt -VE earth.  You can then fit  normal LED stop/tail bulb for a couple of pounds from ebay without the complexity or expense of ones from, Goff. You can get lower powered 35 watt halogen H4 bulbs (if you dont want to use 50 watt ones) so you can fit any of the standard round 7" front car lights. I use a Hella which gives a good beam. Try getting a 6 volt bulb if your fails on the way to Germany or Wales come to that.

If you want to go to electronic ignition then no problem they mostly work on 12 volt -ve earth too.  Fitting GPS, phone chargers or any other extra in the future will be no problem.  just my two penneth.
Dave.
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: a101960 on 17.02. 2014 16:06
Warmshed, I could not have put it better myself. I agree with all that you have said.
John
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: KeithJ on 17.02. 2014 17:40
The fact you say you have belt drive means that the probability is that you have an increase in dynamo speed, Most if not all kits are made this way. The DVR2 belt drive is faster than the SRM one.
this will reduce the engine speed to balance out the load .

You really cant beat (my thoughts ) 12 volt -VE earth.  You can then fit  normal LED stop/tail bulb for a couple of pounds from ebay without the complexity or expense of ones from, Goff. You can get lower powered 35 watt halogen H4 bulbs (if you dont want to use 50 watt ones) so you can fit any of the standard round 7" front car lights. I use a Hella which gives a good beam. Try getting a 6 volt bulb if your fails on the way to Germany or Wales come to that.

If you want to go to electronic ignition then no problem they mostly work on 12 volt -ve earth too.  Fitting GPS, phone chargers or any other extra in the future will be no problem.  just my two penneth.
Dave.
Totally agree with going 12V but I am not aware of any particular issue with +ve earth for powering GPS and phones etc.  As long as they are connected through some connector or similar mounting hardware, it should be possible to wire them accordingly to work with +ve earth.  Only issue I see could be with electronic ignition if it is "grounded" through the engine/frame earth.  12V LED bulbs are readily available but the ones I have used are polarity sensitive.  Not sure if all LED's are polarity sensitive though.
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: groily on 17.02. 2014 18:29
Can't comment on drop bears and such beasts of the night because I've never met (that sort) of nocturnal predator, nor a 'roo! But I will say as one who does ride in the dark a lot, I won't be going back to 6v. Maybe it's just my eyesight, but I find a decent 12v set-up really is better.
If I didn't ride at night I'd probably just have an ancient duff battery, for that 'period look' doncha know, and not bother much about a dynamo. That's a common enough approach here in France, but it is a very limiting factor. Rain, dual carriageways, fog  . . . etc.
And to Ethelred's 'mag v coil/alternator' point  . . .  on an A you'd almost certainly go 12v to get the electronic options if you wanted to do without the mag. On things designed with 6v alternators and coil ignition as original you might persevere at 6v for 'originality' (even if of the near-invisible sort), but the reality is that 12v with proper rectifier/regulator solid state boxes is better (than AC/DC switches with excess spaghetti hanging off the back to 'manage' the alternator, or a zener diode to waste the excess) if you actually want to go anywhere - and get back again.
Biased? Who? Me?
Cheers, Bill
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: morris on 17.02. 2014 21:53
Well.... after the SA's magneto packed up again *angry* I have changed my mind, and just ordered a Pazon ignition and a 12v conversion kit. But the plunger's definitely staying on 6v! (for now..... *conf*)
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: Triton Thrasher on 17.02. 2014 22:39
Well.... after the SA's magneto packed up again *angry*

Who rewound your magneto?
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: Ethelred on 17.02. 2014 22:42
Well here's for the Luddite tendency...

I ride an old BSA coz it's like a time machine. I get out on the lanes round here and ride for miles, day and night. The lanes and B roads haven't much changed and I could be riding along in the 1950s. Kicking it to start it, buggering about with points and magnetos, running on straight 40 oil, peering into the darkness, it's all part of the trip. I have installed a solid state regulator and a hi-tech battery, but neither of those affect the sensual pleasure of the old-fashioned ride. I could see better and probably have less breakdowns if I modernised, but then I could have bought a pretend old bike like a modern Bonnie if I were that way inclined.

To each his own; your bike - your money. I'm just a incurable 6volt romantic with these machines and common-sense has nothing to do with it.
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: Topdad on 18.02. 2014 13:33
If I'm honest I changed to 12v simply 'coz I felt it would be easier to get bulbs etc. I don't at this time ride at night but that may change . I certainly rode at night in my youth , no point in going to London with all the fun awaiting and arriving half way through the day , no, ride through the night get there at sparrow fart time and enjoy never seemed to notice the lack of light ,was that simply youth or was that  we just did not have an alternative back then ,regards BobH
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: cyclobutch on 18.02. 2014 15:25
I stayed on 6V because I had a lovely fresh magneto and dynamo to work with. And changing just seems to substitute one set of potential problems for another. I am running solid state rectifier and LED lights to the rear however. 

Problem with sourcing 6v bulbs duly noted. But I've got two filaments at the front and two 'bulbs' at the back so I reckon I'll always get home with some kind of illumination.
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: warmshed on 18.02. 2014 17:39
 
[/quote]
Totally agree with going 12V but I am not aware of any particular issue with +ve earth for powering GPS and phones etc.  As long as they are connected through some connector or similar mounting hardware, it should be possible to wire them accordingly to work with +ve earth.  Only issue I see could be with electronic ignition if it is "grounded" through the engine/frame earth.  12V LED bulbs are readily available but the ones I have used are polarity sensitive.  Not sure if all LED's are polarity sensitive though.
[/quote]

Keith, most LED bulbs are polarity sensitive. They are normally all made as  -Ve earth which is why the bulbs via Goff (good supplier) are more expensive, he makes them for people with +ve earth, they are rarely available from most other sources, certainly all the cheaper ones are available only as -ve earth.

The majority of electronic ignitions are supplied as -ve earth, you will limit your choice if you go +ve earth.
 
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: Ethelred on 18.02. 2014 19:05

Just curious, but is there any electrical advantage/disadvantage between positive and negative earth (apologies for being a bit off topic)
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: RichardL on 18.02. 2014 19:29
This is a great question and I am still trying to figure out what part of it is most important and why, based on what I've just read. Apparently, battery corrosion is less when the positve terminal is earthed. Also, it appears that spark is better when it jumps from the electrode to earth. Then (again, I just read this), our magnetos send opposite polarity spark to the cylinders, so this aspect might not matter. (Groily or other magneto mavins will please correct me if I've read that wrong or it does not apply apply to K2F.).

I put this stuff out there so I can be slapped-about with corrections and learn thereby.

Richard L.
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: KeithJ on 18.02. 2014 19:37
Heard you should swop plugs over as one side deposit conductor material and the other erodes its?  Also, it was something to do with the way current was thought to flow.  Historically it was from +ve to -ve but more recently thought to be the other way, who knows?
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: trevinoz on 18.02. 2014 20:50
Would you all believe that 6V bulbs are readily available from India and are cheap as chips.
I bought about 30 for myself and others and the landed price came to somewhere between A$2 - A$3 each.
They are motorcycle pre-focus type (filaments in the right position) and can also be had in 12V.

Trev.
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: groily on 18.02. 2014 22:07
On the pos/neg polarity of sparks, if you've got a single, negative sparks are preferable - for being stronger - because electrons like going from the centre electrode to the earth one if they can.  But not an option we get with a twin mag, as one spark is always going to be positive. Folk say you should swap the plugs round now and again to compensate, but have to say I never do. The plugs in my A (NGKs as it happens) have been in there for 30K+ miles now, and you'd have to be a lot smarter than me to know which had run pos and which neg. They both look good as new.
Just a throwaway line, but I reckon a lot of plug trouble is actually symptomatic of other issues with the mag (or the carb). (But I agree some plugs do prematurely fail for no obvious reason.)

On the pos/neg earth Q for the electrical system generally etc, I really dunno. 'They' said years ago, and the 'continentals' followed it, that negative earth avoided corrosion of bodywork on cars, and didn't I read once that Rolls Royce were always Neg earth? But frankly, a lot of cars just rusted away whatever you did after they'd abandoned chassis. None of my bikes ever has (rusted away), despite terrible neglect, and I run pos earth, except on a couple of things with electronic ignition conceived for neg earth. I don't really think it makes a lot of odds.

But I'm sorry your mag's died again Morris - that's depressing. They shouldn't die like that, they really shouldn't!
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: bsa-bill on 18.02. 2014 23:10
The good news with LEDs is they are quite robust and connecting them up the wrong way wont harm them, they are polarity sensitive in as much as they only work one way but all that is necessary is to reverse the connection 
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: warmshed on 19.02. 2014 19:29
Only trouble is some lamp holders are connected to earth so you cant reverse the wiring.  I see some LED fittings (though rare), have diodes fitted inside them so you can fit them to either polarity
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: KeithJ on 19.02. 2014 20:02
LED +ve earth bulbs are also available from:
http://www.dynamoregulatorconversions.com/online-shop-for-led-bulbs-and-light-boards-etc.php
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: bsa-bill on 19.02. 2014 20:34
Quote
Only trouble is some lamp holders are connected to earth so you cant reverse the wiring

True
Quote
have diodes fitted inside them so you can fit them to either polarity

Ah a diode in a Light Emitting Diode, wonder if they just double them up wired up each way so one will always work - obvious but still clever
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: morris on 19.02. 2014 21:41
But I'm sorry your mag's died again Morris - that's depressing. They shouldn't die like that, they really shouldn't!
Agree. That's why it's going to be revived and be reused on the plunger!
The swingarm's magneto is still as was when I bought the bike. A wile ago the right plug refused to spark, so I took it part and found a dirty carbon coated slipring. Cleaned it up, renewed the brushes, but now it started to develop the same symptoms again.
When taking it apart I found that he who did the last overhaul didn't do a good job, so I'll be sending it to someone who knows what he's doing.
The swingarm is going to be converted to electronic sparking, mainly because I will be using it as a daily runner, and also a bit as an experiment because I want to know if it will behave any better.
Thanks for your kind words of condolence....
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: Dynamo Regulators Mike on 20.02. 2014 08:58

True
Quote
have diodes fitted inside them so you can fit them to either polarity

Ah a diode in a Light Emitting Diode, wonder if they just double them up wired up each way so one will always work - obvious but still clever

Actually the polarity insensitive ones employ four small diodes (in a bridge) to steer the current to the LED(s) in the correct direction. A small version of the familiar alternator rectifier, but tiny and only cost a few pennies/cents/sou.
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: groily on 20.02. 2014 09:16
Glad you're going to revive the mag on your plunger Morris, and be interested how you get on with the new box of clever tricks. If the mag has got a mucky slipring again, then maybe the brush quality is the problem, as there are a lot out there that are too soft and leave deposits, despite lots of comments from unhappy owners that you'd think would deter people from selling them. The brushes must not 'write' like a pencil on paper, but should leave only faint traces. There have also been some pretty horrible sliprings out there over the years, and pattern HT pick-ups that leak from brand new, so I'm sure when you have the thing sorted out properly it will fine again! Good luck.
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: BSA_54A10 on 28.02. 2014 04:10
This is a great question and I am still trying to figure out what part of it is most important and why, based on what I've just read. Apparently, battery corrosion is less when the positve terminal is earthed. Also, it appears that spark is better when it jumps from the electrode to earth. Then (again, I just read this), our magnetos send opposite polarity spark to the cylinders, so this aspect might not matter. (Groily or other magneto mavins will please correct me if I've read that wrong or it does not apply apply to K2F.).

I put this stuff out there so I can be slapped-about with corrections and learn thereby.

Richard L.

It all goes back to steel hulled ships used in WW II.
They discovered that you could use eletrodes connected to the ships batteries to protect the hulls in place of the big chunks of zinc formally used.
Thus leaving more zinc for important things, like brass buttons for generals.
Post WW II some clot in the auto electricial trade decided that running + earth would stop cars & bikes rusting and they managed to convince every one that what works in full contact highly conductive salt water would also hold for partial contact less conductive rainwater & condensation.
Proper metallurgical research into galvanic corrosion proved this to be rubbish in the early 50's but the auto industry persisted with it .
there are some highly esoteric reasons why neg earth is better than pos earth but thr primary reason was to be consistent with domestic electricity.
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: Rich on 28.02. 2014 20:30
I changed to 12 volt some time ago with the original dynamo, DV2 regulator, also running an SRM dynamo belt conversion for a better output at lower revs.  I will stay with 12volt as the electric starter requires 12 volt to work, need the electric start even having had a new right hip joint replaced 9 weeks ago!!
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: muskrat on 01.03. 2014 07:40
G'day Rich. What size and type of battery are you using?
The 12 volters are catching up. *fight*
Cheers
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: Rich on 01.03. 2014 10:42
Good Morning Old Chap
I am using a 15amp per hour SVR battery, the two side tabs on the battery tray have to be bent flat to allow it to go in, also the seat may touch the top, depending on how much it has bent, a couple of washers to raise the front works just fine. I hope to post a picture if I remember how
Richard
C:\Users\Richard\Desktop\IMG_0195.JPG
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: Rich on 01.03. 2014 10:45
lets try again
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: muskrat on 01.03. 2014 10:57
Good choice. That'll crank her over quite well.
Cheers
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: KeithJ on 01.03. 2014 18:10
G'day Rich. What size and type of battery are you using?
The 12 volters are catching up. *fight*
Cheers
  I guess the 6 volters need to be more enlightened?  *whistle*
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: groily on 01.03. 2014 18:16
It was cold at 07,00 hours this am. Frosty even. It was still cold at midday. Light enough not to need everything on by about 07,45 hours - Hot Hands are very good!
Tomorrow will be the same, but maybe wet. Same early start for a  full day's riding with other loonies. Hot Hands will be good again. They'll actually need their mulled wine when we stop to warm their hands up. I'll just enjoy mine. 12v? No competition!
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: duTch on 01.03. 2014 22:17


 I haven't voted, as am only running 6V, which works fine so long as I keep up a tail wind to blow the light in front, have to slow down occasionally let it catch up.
  A couple of years ago, I took a bunch of genny bits, (sorry, dyny bits) to Les McKitterick the now-retired legendary auto sparky, and asked him about converting to 12v, he just looked at me and asked 'why ? '. At that time I didn't know enough to have a case, so left it go....
     I just took the bits and made up one that works and when it claps out, I'll consider the options that I'm learning from this discussion  *smile* (still none the wiser *eek*).

Quote
It all goes back to steel hulled ships used in WW II.
They discovered that you could use electrodes connected to the ships
   
   A few years ago (2005), I did some work at a new 400+ metre long wharf at the end of the river, and 4 foot steel piles were used, exposed part wrapped with lanolin lagging covered with fancy tar/poly stuff from top down to low water mark only.....this had me curious when/how they were going to finish the job.... *conf*
One day a mega transformer turned up- to cut the story shortish, turns out it runs I think a high voltage/low amps DC through the piles and stops corrosion, the guy assured me the more corrosive the (electrolyte) water, the better it works.... more *conf*... but can't remember the polarity- sorry  !
 He also reckoned it keeps the sharks at bay...(no pun intended).. *????*


Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: tomtit on 12.03. 2014 21:33
Staying with 6v, keeping everything original.

That said I'm hoping the mag and dynamo don't pack up.

Tom *problem*
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: morris on 28.03. 2014 23:11
Had a frightening experience tonight. When coming back by car from the supermarket, I nearly drove in on a couple of bikers coming from the opposite side.
I had to shift to the opposite lane due to some roadworks, when I saw a couple of dim lights which I thought where two pushbikes coming towards me.
I thought they where still far away so time enough as it was just a short stretch of roadworks, but then it struck me that they where coming in far to quickly to be pushbikes, so I hit the brakes and went back in lane just in time. It was two blokes on two old bikes (couldn't see the marque) with headlights barely stronger than a candle, and when they passed me I saw in my rearview mirror two very faint rearlights disappear in the dark....
Moral of the story; 6 or 12V, just make sure your light is strong enough so you'll be recognized as a motorised driver!
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: en7jos on 13.08. 2014 02:56
12v for me, the DVR2 regs are excellent!  :)
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: Tomcat on 13.08. 2014 10:43
Well here's for the Luddite tendency...

I ride an old BSA coz it's like a time machine. I get out on the lanes round here and ride for miles, day and night. The lanes and B roads haven't much changed and I could be riding along in the 1950s. Kicking it to start it, buggering about with points and magnetos, running on straight 40 oil, peering into the darkness, it's all part of the trip. I have installed a solid state regulator and a hi-tech battery, but neither of those affect the sensual pleasure of the old-fashioned ride. I could see better and probably have less breakdowns if I modernised, but then I could have bought a pretend old bike like a modern Bonnie if I were that way inclined.

To each his own; your bike - your money. I'm just a incurable 6volt romantic with these machines and common-sense has nothing to do with it.

What a magnificent statement Ethelred *ex*
 FWIW my A7 is 6 volt and the lights work OK, although I don't intentionally ride it at night. Way too much wildlife (mostly small brained Kangaroos) out here in the scrub.
 I didn't vote on the poll as the A10 SR will be 12volt, and my votes would be one each way. The electrics need to be rebuilt/replaced, so the upgrade will take no extra cost or effort
Cheers TC
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: bsa-bill on 13.08. 2014 14:26
perhaps the question should be - do you have six or twelve volt eyes *eek*
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: raindodger on 13.08. 2014 15:27
Gentlemen.
             FWIW I have one of each, 12v on the A10, and 6v on the B31.  I found that the most worthwhile mods are a DVR2 and a headlight relay inside the shell.  There's a considerable volt drop in those thin wires to and from the dipswitch.  Both headlights are bright and I can see where I'm going.  That's the main thing, after all.   
Regards
Tim.
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: a10gf on 13.08. 2014 15:51
^^^
Quote
the most worthwhile mods are a DVR2 and a headlight relay
Good tip about using a relay. And 6V with halogen bulbs is giving good lights. I'd see the main reason for going 12V would be the addition of electronic ignition.
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: KeithJ on 13.08. 2014 16:55
12V also allows the use of LED's and readily available replacement bulbs.  Also the use of HID headlamps and this type http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/281363715688?_trksid=p2060778.m2749.l2648&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
ATB
Keith
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: cyclobutch on 14.08. 2014 09:15
Conversely when I wired mine on 6v I paid particular attention to wire dimensions and joints. Apart from the disparity between the headlamp position and reflector causing the dip to be too low and the high to be up in the sky it’s certainly bright enough. I’d bought relays but have seen no reason to fit them to date. Conversely on the H1 which is of course 12v, despite paying a lot of attention to the connectors when I put the original loom back in whenever someone approaches from the rear at night I find myself riding in my own shadow.
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: warmshed on 14.08. 2014 14:04
A good byproduct of converting to 12 volts is, for the same load you draw half the current. This means half the volt drop due to resistance of cables and connections.  This comes free.
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: Johnny J on 18.12. 2014 21:50
Why not both 6V and 12V!

I haven't seen anybody else using this kind product: http://www.ebay.com/itm/301173896517?_trksid=p2060778.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

I have bought one and it seems to work perfectly, so I will keep the 6V battery and use 12V for lighting etc.
Have to "flash" for negative earth since this device is not isolated and have common minus, negative earth makes it easier to use LED bulbs.

An advantage as I have read in this/other threads is that with 6V the dynamo provides charge at lower RPMs compared to 12V.
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: KeithJ on 18.12. 2014 22:21
"An advantage as I have read in this/other threads is that with 6V the dynamo provides charge at lower RPMs compared to 12V."

Are you saying the unit allows the 6V dynamo to charge at lower revs than a 12V dynamo?

Or 6V dynamo will out put more at lower revs compared to a 12V one?

Keith
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: beezermacc on 18.12. 2014 23:36
A 6v dynamo, in standard trim, is capable of producing 20v quite easily. The dynamo spins slightly quicker than the engine (about 10% quicker if I remember correctly) so, at tickover speed most dynamos deliver somewhere between 6 and 7 volts but, depending on the type of regulator you use, you may need slightly over 7 volts from the dynamo to charge a 6v battery. The faster the dynamo spins the higher the voltage - generally. If you use a standard 6v dynamo with the standard gearing it will not deliver enough voltage to charge a 12v battery until about 2000 or even 2500 r.p.m. You can buy a belt kit so that the dynamo spins faster but, if your dynamo is old and has been the victim of vibration the pegs and bearing housing will be worn, so spinning it at a higher r.p.m. might not be desirable if the armature is not well balanced. However, many people use this set-up and are perfectly happy. Alternatively you can have a dynamo rebuilt with a 12v armature and 12v field coil and the dynamo will produce about 12v at about 1000 r.p.m. i.e no need to fit a belt kit but the dynamo conversion might cost about £160.
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: shuswapkev on 07.07. 2015 13:00

I have a rigid 650..the cases are 51...no idea when any of  the rest went out the door...gear box case is 49 and frame 48..
using a 6 volt dynamo  podtronics 12v reg      wassel ignition  10 amphr doorbell battery...and indicators...I have changed all lights to LED  switching any on does not wiggle the ammeter needle...I have a horn from a late model landrover...it buries the needle  but is SO LOUD...  I have fitted a digi voltmeter on my handlebar ..it gives me real time on my dynamo..and when shut off ..battery voltage..i use an LED pilot light in my headlight    normal around town running ..the dynamo keeps the dry cell at 12.7v
the wassel allows dynamic timing with a light  and degree wheel...easily adjustable to 1 degree...
12 volt means easy access to bulbs horns ...and whatevers...I also use a navman when I have to...

I,m getting a magneto rebuilt...as I have some concerns about riding on the dynamo...as I don't think it was ever made for that....once cut out is engagaed..my dynamo is always making 13.8 v I don't know if it il do that continually...
     
originally...the wassel ign came up on ebay for cheap...and my last maggy rebuild took nearly a year...

if the magneto doesn't work as well as the wassel...I would like to fit a Kubota type alternator on the end of my E3L...like the sportster guys do with their delco generators...
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: Viking on 07.09. 2015 11:48
6V with positive earth is good originality, and for a bike used for show and summer fun.

Problems with 6V: Heavy ware on contactors, more difficult to get 6V bulbs and GEL batteries etc.

Low voltage and moisture are not good friends. 

Hard to get proper lighting beam out of Headlamp bulb (Pre Focus) 6 Volt, 30/24 Watt, even with new reflector
You can get 6V LED +VE, but they are still new and in development…. Or 6V halogen bulbs, but they draw a lot of amp.

12V with negative earth is good for an everyday and practical running a bike, you can easily get electric parts and gadgets like GPS, H4 halogen headlights, flashers, relays, LED bulbs etc.

Going the 12V route with the Prince of darkness (Lucas) dynamo is a problematic route.

Fitting a 12V armature, field coil + 12V electronic regulator. There is the issue with the thin wires in the armature.

Stepping up voltage with a 12V regulator on a 6 Volt dynamo is stressing the matter even further.

The more bullet proof way is an 12V Alton generator. That can feed high output main beam all day.

I would love to have a “police” 12V crank shaft fitted generator on my A10. But finding the primary covers etc. for that is like finding “rocking horse manure”    
Besides that, I am sure that the covers are not so pleasant to the eye as the std. primary cover. 

What is best ?
Depending upon the usage of the bike and the money you are willing to spend…
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: rocker21 on 31.03. 2016 12:28
I fitted a 12v Alton alternator in place of the dynamo , problem solved i can now run a standard 65/55 w H4 halogen bulb , i live in the countryside where there are no street light so a decent light is a must, also fitted the srm belt drive for the dynamo, needs a slight mod to make it fit the Alton, works well. next thing to try is the LED conversion, some of my mates in the club say it is brilliant and would not go back to a halogen bulb. 12v bulbs are much easier to get.
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: RichardL on 31.03. 2016 13:09
No comment on the Alton alternator matter. This is about funny jargon and figures-of-speech. I've always appreciated the British use of the term "brilliant" to mean "great," or "wonderful," or "excellent," but would stop short of using it to describe a light bulb unless I was talking about its relative light output. *smile*  ;)

Richard L.
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: rocker21 on 31.03. 2016 13:34
well the LED conversion compared to the halogen is just that, it is a much brighter and whiter light so i think the term brilliant is justified, having ridden a bike at night with one fitted there is no comparison , the LED wins every time and uses less power as well.
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: RichardL on 31.03. 2016 15:53
Ah! Killing two birds with one stone. *smile*
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: Triton Thrasher on 31.03. 2016 17:54
I use an Alton and I would say don't sell the old dynamo.
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: duTch on 31.03. 2016 22:55


 
Quote
No comment on the Alton alternator matter. This is about funny jargon and figures-of-speech. I've always appreciated the British use of the term "brilliant" to mean "great," or "wonderful," or "excellent," but would stop short of using it to describe a light bulb unless I was talking about its relative light output. *smile*  ;)

  I feel you're taking the pi$$ here, however;
  *idea* *idea* I've heard "...brilliant white light" plenty of times and figured it as the definition, so would've thought that other uses of "brilliant" were derived from it
 *smile*
 
Quote
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/brilliant
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: muskrat on 01.04. 2016 06:46
duTch, the simple definition #3 describes you. No pith intended. *smile*
Cheers
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: ellis on 14.06. 2016 10:02
I'm on 6v at the moment, Bike back on the road next week so I will see if its ok.

ELLIS

Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: Joolstacho on 02.08. 2016 11:39
So I'm worried about this from Mister Thrasher:
"I use an Alton and I would say don't sell the old dynamo". Hmmmm...

(Also see my topic re: 7.4v LiPo batteries).
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: TT John on 07.09. 2016 11:31
I have stuck to 6v system on most of my bikes but I have improved the lighting system by fitting 6v pos led lighting, I know that the led pre focus headlight units are a little expensive at the moment, but I can be seen by everyone and I can also see much better at night in the country, I did have a problem with one of my small bikes C15, whereas I could not get anything out of it, so I change that to 12v but that was alternator, left the 6v horn on it which is loud now, halogen lighting on that one, which is very good. *yeah*
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: tinu on 22.09. 2016 22:06
After a few night rides (days are getting shorter), I am quite happy with my 6V headlight... I do no races at night.
I have a new LED tail/stop light, what I think is very bright.
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: orabanda on 23.09. 2016 03:32
Installing a relay into the headlight circuit is an improvement as well (the dimmer switch only sends a signal to the relay; does not carry full load current - less voltage drop - globe burns brighter).

Richard
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: Triton Thrasher on 23.09. 2016 06:38
So I'm worried about this from Mister Thrasher:
"I use an Alton and I would say don't sell the old dynamo". Hmmmm...

Some people say the latest Altons are better, but they have a terrible history of failing in service.

I had a three phase one stop working, a few months from new. They sent another, geared single phase one for free. 
That has worked for a good few thousand miles, but other users have had geared type Altons fail.

And don't expect anything like prompt attention from the Alton makers.
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: JulianS on 27.03. 2017 13:38
Converted to 12 volt in 1976 using standard Lucas E3L and JG control unit. Did many night miles due to commuting for shift work using a 60/55 watt H4.  Converted because of poor 6 volt lights and battery boiling with mechanical regulator..

The JG lasted until 2010 when I replaced it with another of the same.

No longer commuting. Have fitted an Osram Night Racer 35/35 watt HS1 bulb in a Lucas flat glass H4 light unit and LED tail/stop. Good light output easily balanced by dynamo.
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: bikerboy on 14.06. 2017 02:11
Having been an auto electrician for over 20 years in a previous life I converted to 12 volt without any hesitation or regret

Mind you none of my bikes are standard anyway I am far from a purist
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: Joolstacho on 14.06. 2017 07:32
Bikerboy (sorry to hijack this thread, but it's 'kinda' relevant). I've asked this question on a few forums, but so far no answer.
6v batteries are increasingly hard to get.
Can we use a 2 cell LiPo battery (at 7.2v), instead of a 6v battery (Obviously I'm running a 6v dynamo).
My question is, how would the regulator be charging the LiPo?
It'll be about the amps I guess, 30c - 40c cells are easy to get and cheap, would they handle it ok?
(Yes we could go a hard shell pack for safety).
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: duTch on 14.06. 2017 08:37

 my limited knowledge tells me that LiPo/ (Li-ion) cells require a different charging parameter...I've acquired a few 18650 Li-ion cells to play with but  *dunno*

 what is  ???
Quote
It'll be about the amps I guess, 30c - 40c cells are easy to get and cheap, would they handle it ok?
??
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: Triton Thrasher on 14.06. 2017 17:52
So I'm worried about this from Mister Thrasher:
"I use an Alton and I would say don't sell the old dynamo". Hmmmm...

Some people say the latest Altons are better, but they have a terrible history of failing in service.

I had a three phase one stop working, a few months from new. They sent another, geared single phase one for free. 
That has worked for a good few thousand miles, but other users have had geared type Altons fail.

And don't expect anything like prompt attention from the Alton makers.

That's my second regulator failure on the Aton just occurred!

Have now fitted one of those £10 Asian regs off Ebay.
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: chaterlea25 on 14.06. 2017 22:01
Hi TT
The Altons now come with "podtronics " rectifier regulators rated at 200 Watts
I think other reg's arn't up to the output from the alternator

People fail to realise that alternators /dynamos work flat out to raise the battery voltage
If this rate of charge is too high for the battery it will cook the battery *warn*
Likewise with a dud battery the charging system works flat out trying to raise the voltage top the cut out point

John
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: mikeb on 14.06. 2017 22:14
Quote from: Joolstacho
Can we use a 2 cell LiPo battery (at 7.2v)
I'd be very anxious about trying a lithium battery. they charge at different voltages, need to be well managed in charging current and explode/burn when the parameteres are wrong. this has been mentioned before here in a couple of posts:
https://www.a7a10.net/forum/index.php?topic=10919.msg82146#msg82146 (https://www.a7a10.net/forum/index.php?topic=10919.msg82146#msg82146)
if you do try this do it on a bench and do some reading first - hate to see another a10 burn.
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: Joolstacho on 14.06. 2017 23:22
Thanks Mike, I'd completely forgotten that earlier thread.
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: BSA_54A10 on 27.06. 2017 10:48
Been using Cyclons for ages and would never think of using any other type of battery.
Originally I bought 2 of the 2,5Ah 6 V packs ( which fit nicely into an old Lucas battery case ) but pinched one for another bike and have ben running on the one battery for a couple of years without any problems.
The Cyclons do not self discharge and the plates being round with fiberglass matt between them never break off.

OTOH the double dipper LED headlamp globe was a total wast of money providing less than no useable light, but with the LED tail lamp & std headlamp I have 1/2 of lighting with all lights on and no generator.
Fitted a 3 W high pressure halogen parking globe which gives out more useable light than the LED Headlamp so with the3W parlingbulb & 0.5W tail/stop lamp night riding is no problem
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: wortluck on 11.07. 2017 23:03
6v for me - keeping the bike standard as far as possible.  I reckon the bikers-of-the-60s' eyesight wasn't better than mine so it'll do for me.  I use a Powersonic 8ah sealed AGM unit which is often used for alarm stand-by systems and seems to work fine at present.  Night riding is fine although I don't have to dodge crazy roos!
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: lawnmowerman on 10.08. 2018 12:49
12v for me using two cyclon batteries in series, DVR2 regulator, belt drive kit to spin the dynamo a bit faster with LEDs all round. Not too keen on the headlamp "double dipper" so may go to a BPF halogen.

Jim
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: rocker21 on 10.08. 2018 15:25
fit a cibie Z beam light unit which is an H4 fitting, then go to classic dynamo and regulator conversions and buy one of their better ones, it has the same beam pattern as a standard H4 halogen light, got them fitted to all my bikes now, not cheap but works and you can adjust the dip from left to right hand drive or something in between. i agree the double dip stuff is not great.
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: worntorn on 10.08. 2018 15:49
I have a zero volts system at present, the Lucas is shot.
I'm looking at the various options and tempted by the Alton with belt drive kit.
You get a sped up system which should produce decent power at fairly low revs, 150 watt max output,12 volts for bright lights, solid state voltage regulator and of course brushless permanent magnet alternator with warranty.
It's also a nice looking unit and drops a few pounds of weight off the bike vs Lucas E3l weight.
The downside is cost, about 400 GBP for the complete kit with tax.
Then , what is the cost for a Lucas rebuild ( armature gone according to testing) and so on?

Glen
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: rocker21 on 10.08. 2018 16:10
i have an early Alton which i have modified to take the srm belt drive , works a treat on my A7ss and has done for years, got LED lights all round and about to fit some period style indicators that fit into the handle bar ends like a mirror, should make night riding a bit better, hand signals don't get seen these days.
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: duTch on 10.08. 2018 23:03
  Postage from UK is a deterrent, but for Aussies, I lashed out a couple of months ago and bought a LED insert from http://www.classicandvintagebulbs.com/page6.html (http://www.classicandvintagebulbs.com/page6.html), I think ~$75, plus postage and credit/paypal surcharge (won't use that again)..

 This one may be the same as previously just mentioned, but is actually brilliant in comparison, and same pattern as the H4 I was using, and even shimmers off the road-signs so I know it's functioning...   *clap*

 Also bought a pair of 12V ones (slightly different design) for $25 from a random ebay, and they seem ok, but haven't used them yet

 I'll edit in a piccy or two from the phone later if I remember


Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: Sav on 11.08. 2018 09:09
6v still here on both A7SS and A10SR and no intention of changing unless my ailing hip forces me to go electric start.

LED bulbs from DynamoRegulatorConverstions are so much better and headlight backed up by a dippable Exposure Strada 1200 light on the bars.

That combination has tranformed my night-time riding. the LED bulb gives the spotightand the Strada wide angle beam lights up the verges on country lanes that you cannot see well with headlight alone. I simply clip the Strada to whichever bike I am riding. Charge lasts 3½hrs on full beam and 10 hours on dip, amazing technology.
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: Greybeard on 11.08. 2018 09:41
...headlight backed up by a dippable Exposure Strada 1200 light on the bars.

That combination has tranformed my night-time riding. the LED bulb gives the spotightand the Strada wide angle beam lights up the verges on country lanes that you cannot see well with headlight alone. I simply clip the Strada to whichever bike I am riding. Charge lasts 3½hrs on full beam and 10 hours on dip, amazing technology.
I think it should be good for that price!
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Exposure-Lights-Strada-including-Remote/dp/B01KMWQZFO/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1533976741&sr=8-1&keywords=exposure+strada+1200
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: duTch on 11.08. 2018 10:19
 I had a look on 'D-R-Conversations'  *smile*, and their light looks a look like mine,  but theirs doesn't show all the entrails.... here's the pics I took back then,  a bit deceptive due to a couple of street lights.... last pic is same street with lights turned off, and 20 metres further back on the speed bump but ambient light from the overhead street light,  engine off so had lost about a volt but *doh* doesn't matter anyway (no light on)

  With all lights on, they were drawing 1.1A high or low,  and 1.13 with brake light added (all LED )... I'll show pics up the other way tho too...
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: mikeb on 11.08. 2018 12:00
Dutch - i've still got those classic dynamo regulator conversions LEDs both 6v and 12v on my bsas and they are still great. there's a series of pics and measurements comparing them with 'lesser' bulbs and halogens here: https://www.a7a10.net/forum/index.php?topic=11047 (https://www.a7a10.net/forum/index.php?topic=11047)
sounds like they are still the best out there, esp for 6v
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: lawnmowerman on 11.08. 2018 12:55
6v still here on both A7SS and A10SR and no intention of changing unless my ailing hip forces me to go electric start.

LED bulbs from DynamoRegulatorConverstions are so much better and headlight backed up by a dippable Exposure Strada 1200 light on the bars.

That combination has tranformed my night-time riding. the LED bulb gives the spotightand the Strada wide angle beam lights up the verges on country lanes that you cannot see well with headlight alone. I simply clip the Strada to whichever bike I am riding. Charge lasts 3½hrs on full beam and 10 hours on dip, amazing technology.

Wow - for £260 you are almost into Alton alternator territory with an H4 bulb

Jim
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: Sav on 11.08. 2018 17:22
You get what you pay for in this life! and you only need one for the fleet! plus they are available for about £190.

I'll see if I can manage a night shot.
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: duTch on 11.08. 2018 22:46

 mike, I remember reading that, probably what motivated me. I forgot to mention that I'm using a Hella H4 reflector which seems to be about like the lower profile (shallower) ones of yours.
      It's a bit hard to see in my pics, but low-beam spread has the defined horizontal kicking up to the left- no fan and I haven't checked for heat.
 $90 AuClams compared to £60GB plus postage doesn't seem too bad after all (ATR, £60 = ~$105)

 Sav that looks handy, but even £199... *eek* pics will be good.
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: Sav on 12.08. 2018 22:29
On the Empire Star 6 volt neg earth

1) The night
2) The 6v LED
3) LED plus Exposure light
4) Exposure light on its own
5) Lighting up the garage and showing the Emp with my home made riser bar for light / roller box / satnav on runs

Expensive but I believe my safety is worth paying for.
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: duTch on 12.08. 2018 23:02

 
 That's fairly bright Sav, but the LED alone looks a bit 'spotty', and could be a bit higher, is that with high or low beam?

 What reflector/lens combo are you using?
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: Slymo on 13.08. 2018 07:04
The LED bulbs I bought for my bike were happy with any voltage from 6-24v but were specific on polarity. For me they remove the argument about voltage although with good wiring and clean reflectors my 6v bike was indistinguishable from the 12v one in light brightness.
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: Sav on 13.08. 2018 08:07
The dynamoregulaor LED bulbs have two LED's, one either side of a blade, one for dip two for full beam, so very hard cut-off. I have not played with the focal length of the bulb position on the prewar bike, reflector is not good on that bike, The combination works fine for a 1937 bike, a vast improvement on what I had out of a standard BA15d bulb from the limited dynamo power.
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: duTch on 13.08. 2018 09:23

 
Quote
The LED bulbs I bought for my bike were happy with any voltage from 6-24v but were specific on polarity. For me they remove the argument about voltage although with good wiring and clean reflectors my 6v bike was indistinguishable from the 12v one in light brightness

 That's handy partial info....what breed of insert and  reflector are they ?

 One Thing I have trouble with is colour (which is easily worked out),and 'stated * lumens*'  *conf2* which means farqueall really- it depends on how the 'lumens' are calculated...then there is 'Lux' which I think is more relevant....depending on the situation *pull hair out*
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: WozzA on 03.09. 2018 08:11
12 Volt & LED's on BOTH bikes now... 
The Swing arm is Neg to Earth..
& the Plunger is Pos to Earth...
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: muskrat on 03.09. 2018 09:56
G'day Woz.
Could end up a bit confusing. Make both the same earth. I did.
Cheers
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: RDfella on 18.10. 2018 17:02
How does one vote - or has the poll closed? Don't tell me someone is reading all the posts and filling in a spreadsheet!
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: bsa-bill on 18.10. 2018 17:55
Quote
How does one vote

Scroll back up to the top of the page
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: RDfella on 18.10. 2018 17:59
'Scroll back up to the top of the page'

Already looked there for a while, but can't find a way to vote. What am I missing? Maybe poll is now closed.
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: bsa-bill on 18.10. 2018 18:20
you should see this
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: duTch on 18.10. 2018 18:28
 
Quote
you should see this
............. yep- just worked for me
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: RDfella on 18.10. 2018 19:38
bsaBill - not me I'm afraid. All I see is the poll result, but no means of casting a vote . But never mind, it's not important and I know when to give up.
Re the 6v debate; all my 6v vehicles - including a T20 Ferguson tractor - have stayed on 6v. After all, we're talikg wattage for lights / horns etc, and when using 6v instead of 12 that merely means twice the amperage for the same result. Provided the wiring is suitable, there should be little or no difference. For electric starting there can be a difference, as discharge rate is proportional to battery plate area, and 12v batteries usually have greater surface area meaning, on a tractor (or car etc) you may only get say 200A x 6v compared with 300A x12v. Just when you need more, you get less. But then few our bikes have been converted to electric start and the modern ones (eg my firestorm) are 12v from new.
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: morris on 18.10. 2018 20:59
you should see this
That’s weird... normally once voted it should disappear. Otherwise it would be possible to vote a million times if you wanted. Haven’t changed your PC or something?
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: bsa-bill on 18.10. 2018 22:00
looks like I'm in a virtual Tardis maybe, with option to freeze time

No actually I wondered if it was an unknown feature of Firefox (it has a few) so I've just tried it in Edge and Chrome - comes up just the same, possible to do with the way I open the tab (goes straight to recent posts?), I have tried to see if I could vote again and yes I could if I then pressed sumbit  , which I didn't
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: Greybeard on 18.10. 2018 22:39
On this Android tablet I do not see the voting buttons; only the results.
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: Black Sheep on 19.10. 2018 06:34
Difficult choice. The A10 is 6 volt and sticking with it, the A7 is 12 volt and sticking with it. I would say that if you have a decent 6 volt system (separate earth wires make all the difference), why change? If you need a dynamo overhaul, why not go 12 volt?
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: muskrat on 19.10. 2018 08:35
G'day RD.
Are you logged in? Only members can vote. If your not logged in you will still see the topic but the voting won't be available.
Cheers
Ps: DOH, you must be logged in to post a reply  *bash*
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: Peter in Aus on 19.10. 2018 08:55
That ore you have already voted and forgotten about it, its been going since Jan 14 I know I must have voted but can't remember it!? *eek*
I would have as I am very much in favour of 12V *fight*
Title: Re: 6 volt or 12 volt
Post by: RDfella on 18.03. 2019 17:45
I prefer three phase ....