The BSA A7-A10 Forum

Technical => Frame => Topic started by: Tone on 18.02. 2014 20:12

Title: Frame number
Post by: Tone on 18.02. 2014 20:12
Hi, Could someone please tell me exactly where the frame number on a 1958 a10 is? Can't find it!
Title: Re: Frame number
Post by: trevinoz on 18.02. 2014 20:38
Should be on the front of the headstock stamped vertically.

Trev.
Title: Re: Frame number
Post by: rowan.bradley on 07.11. 2017 11:34
I can't find it there. Where exactly should it be? Here's a photo of the left hand side, where I've seen other A10 frame numbers stamped, but there is no trace of a number on mine. Where should I look next?

Thanks - Rowan
Title: Re: Frame number
Post by: JulianS on 07.11. 2017 11:49
Rowan - You will have to carefully check the whole frame. If its not on the wrap around plate the frame is probably a replacement one and could be stamped anywhere, or could be unstamped.

This frame is the 1961 pattern.
Title: Re: Frame number
Post by: rowan.bradley on 07.11. 2017 12:41
Thanks for this.

>This frame is the 1961 pattern

What is different about the "1961 pattern" frame?

So this is definitely not a 1958 frame?

It has a frame number in the log book (FA7-1388), but if this is a replacement frame, presumably the logbook number refers to the original frame?

If the frame does not have a frame number stamped on it, is that going to give me problems when I want to re-register the bike? It sounds like they want to check the actual number stamped on the frame to verify the age of the bike...

Thanks - Rowan
Title: Re: Frame number
Post by: JulianS on 07.11. 2017 16:07
Differences - the full wrap around headstock support as your photo for 61 - the rear brake cable anchor points straight back for lever pointing up 58, 1960 on points more downwards for lever pointing down  - the centre stand spring on the right for 58. Sure there are more.

First photo shows headstock support pre 1961 frames.

Second photo is a factory replacement universal type frame showing both cable stops - top stop for up to 1959 - bottom stop for 1960 on.

Last photo is a very poor copy of the factory Parts Service bulletin introducing the factory replacement frame. They would have been made to the latest pattern, you do see some of them with 4 front engine mounting lugs.

Sorry dont have a photo of spring anchors.
Title: Re: Frame number
Post by: bikerbob on 07.11. 2017 17:24
If your frame does not have a frame number then yes this will cause problems when you try to reregister the bike everything revolves around the frame number for identification, the engine is not so important. Back in the day when a bike needed a new frame or new crankcases then the dealer who supplied the replacements were supposed to stamp them with the original numbers. You have a log book with a frame number and it could be the number that should have gone onto your replacement frame but how do you prove that, there could be another frame out there with that number so I don,t think it would be advisable to stamp that frame with that number otherwise you could have 2 frames with the same number. The DVLA would not look kindly on you if that was to happen. I think your only course of action is to ring the DVLA and seek their advice but I very much doubt if they will tell you if that frame number is already being used. Sadly it looks as though you may be heading for a Q plate as even for an age related registration you need a frame number on the bike. I remember a few years ago I was considering buying a Norton it had a frame number but no engine number and no paperwork I rang the DVLA at the time and they said that as long as it had a genuine frame number it could be registered the engine was not important.
Title: Re: Frame number
Post by: Greybeard on 07.11. 2017 18:17
Is there a chance of finding reg details of a scrapped bike? Anyone here with a registration, (Log Book) for a similar machine that no longer exists?
Title: Re: Frame number
Post by: KiwiGF on 07.11. 2017 22:02
Hi, Could someone please tell me exactly where the frame number on a 1958 a10 is? Can't find it!


I suggest you remove the paint where it might be. Sometimes stamps can be quite shallow and hence accidentally covered up by paint, sometimes of course they also are shallow and/or illegible because someone sanded or ground them so they DID'NT show through paint  *eek* ......I've just registered one of those in nz and was quite nervous about the number being pretty illegible but, in the end, no one was that bothered. The number (sequence) bit was reasonably clear, but not the ZB31 bit.

If my bike had been stolen at some point in its life it was over 35 years ago as that's how long the PO had it.

I'm afraid in nz we are not so careful about frame numbers, if there was a frame without a number here, I've been emphatically told it would get one put on! There is normally no one involved in the re registering process who would want to query the originality of a frame stamping ;) even if they had the skill to recognise a forged one.

Also if dealers were supposed to restamp frames, did BSA issue them with the correct factory stamps? Or did they use whatever stamps they had in the workshop? Or are the stamps (eg font) readily available even nowadays?

I know this is a contentious subject but I reckon we all want the bikes back on the road.....conversely we don't want bikes to be "mis represented" (eg made into an RGS, or a Goldie)

Title: Re: Frame number
Post by: cyclobutch on 08.11. 2017 13:56
If there is no number then stamp the frame to match the V5.
Title: Re: Frame number
Post by: Topdad on 08.11. 2017 15:42
I'm with CB on this , if you've bought in good faith and been provided with an old V5 surely would be reasonable to assume that the old frame was damaged and replaced with the later frame at that time and the dealer didn't restamp it .
Title: Re: Frame number
Post by: rowan.bradley on 09.11. 2017 13:54
Thanks very much JulianS for those pictures. Mine has the two cable stops, see my picture (sorry the frame is not cleaned up yet like yours  *smiley4*). So this means that it is a factory replacement frame supplied some time after 1960? And maybe it never had a frame stamp? If there is no frame stamp that I can find, what are the implications for registering the bike (under its original registration number, SJF612) in UK? Would it help, or hinder, if I stamped it with the frame number in the log book (which is the old style RF60)? DVLA must surely have come across this situation many times before, and have a way of handling it?

Many thanks - Rowan
Title: Re: Frame number
Post by: JulianS on 09.11. 2017 14:28
To retain an old number you need to establish a documentary link between the registration number and the frame number. No frame number then no link.

This takes you toDVLA website;

https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration/old-vehicles
Title: Re: Frame number
Post by: beesa71 on 09.11. 2017 15:08
RB,

Does the engine number in your machine match that as stated on the old book?

Also, there is a methodology to add your number (old book) to the frame. Especially as JS confirms you have a replacement frame.

Paul.
Title: Re: Frame number
Post by: Topdad on 09.11. 2017 16:13
rowan, remember that you will be dealing with a Govt dept , they are like water and electricity in that they will wont to take the easiest route .... for them  ie Issue a "Q" plate, you have to make it crystal for them . There is a chap in a mthly mag who helps retain old numbers ,someone on here must know which one  and i'm sure he as helped just with a log book .
Would the BSAOC be able to provide any help ?
Title: Re: Frame number
Post by: rowan.bradley on 09.11. 2017 16:33
>Does the engine number in your machine match that as stated on the old book?

Yes, it does. How does that help me?

>remember that you will be dealing with a Govt dept

Yes, that's what worries me!

>there is a methodology to add your number (old book) to the frame

What IS this methodology? I suppose I need to know where should the number be put, facing up or down, what size letters, what sort of font, what spacing etc. Some images of existing stamps would help (yes, I've already got a few from this thread).

>There is a chap in a mthly mag who helps retain old numbers

Anyone know who this is?

Many thanks - Rowan

Title: Re: Frame number
Post by: Topdad on 09.11. 2017 16:42
Rowan ,may be old bike mart, last 3 brain cells suddenly aligned !
Title: Re: Frame number
Post by: chaterlea25 on 09.11. 2017 17:55
Hi Rowan,
Off topic, but your photo shows a good example of why A&/10's have a reputation  for poo rear brakes  *sad2*

Reason
Almost all replacement cables are too long in both inner and outer measurements *problem*
I posted about a modified cable that cures the problem some time ago

John
Title: Re: Frame number
Post by: rowan.bradley on 09.11. 2017 18:15
>you need to establish a documentary link between the registration number and the frame number

I've GOT a documentary link (in the logbook). Just not any physical evidence of it on the bike.

Rowan
Title: Re: Frame number
Post by: rowan.bradley on 09.11. 2017 18:17
As I understand it, the DVLA relies on the BSAOC to check the validity of the bike. They are not a government department. What do I need to do to convince them that this is a genuine 1958 bike?

Thanks - Rowan
Title: Re: Frame number
Post by: JulianS on 09.11. 2017 18:32
Owners clubs and the VMCC, who are authorised to sign the V765 have to maintain high standards or that authorisation will be withdrawn.
Title: Re: Frame number
Post by: Rex on 09.11. 2017 20:48
I'd avoid the VMCC if I was you. Apart from the cost (something like £75) they want to know the ins and outs of a rat's a*se; pics of hubs, forks, gearbox etc, and then they act like they're doing you a real big favour by even replying to you.
BSAOC would be better.
Oh yes.....the inspector the DVLA sends isn't just looking for a frame number which corresponds with that in the old log book, s/he also checks that it's been stamped at Armoury Lane way back when.
New or wrong stamps, fonts, positioning will set all the alarm bells ringing.
Title: Re: Frame number
Post by: cyclobutch on 10.11. 2017 10:10
Do not give the DVLA the chance to screw you over. Stamp the frame to match. Seriously, really. Any other route is going to cause you pain.
Title: Re: Frame number
Post by: Topdad on 10.11. 2017 10:54
Rex, sorry  but have to disagree ,unless DVLA as seriously changed /improved it's staff . When i took my bike to be checked over the "inspector" was a young kid who didn't know one end of a bike from the other ,He started by calling my bike a Bantam , I had to show him the frame number which He looked at for a nano second , He was much more interested in the receipts which I had in spades . I have to say this was 11 yrs ago  but thatwas how it was done then.
Title: Re: Frame number
Post by: JulianS on 10.11. 2017 11:01
The critical part of retaining a registration is the DVLA V765. Completion of that with an authorised Club signature is the first step.
Title: Re: Frame number
Post by: rowan.bradley on 10.11. 2017 15:25
Can someone tell me exactly how high (in mm) the characters in the frame number stamping were? So I can buy the right size punches?

Thanks - Rowan
Title: Re: Frame number
Post by: bikerbob on 10.11. 2017 16:41
I have been down the route of reclaiming an original registration, it is not as simple as some people will have you believe, as has been already said you have to get verification from an owners club ie BSA owners club of the bike frame number and engine number . To get that you have to supply photographs of the frame and engine numbers along with pencil rubbings of the said numbers, ask yourself why do they want pencil rubbings of the numbers and not just photographs, failure to supply either will invalidate your claim. You are intending stamping a frame with a number that you think belongs with that bike but you have no documentary evidence to support that apart from the old RF60 log book which gives a frame number but as I said earlier how do you know that the original frame was scrapped it could still be out there registered to another bike.
Title: Re: Frame number
Post by: Greybeard on 10.11. 2017 16:57
Is it worth speaking to Steve Foden, the dating officer at BSAOC to get advice?
Title: Re: Frame number
Post by: rowan.bradley on 10.11. 2017 17:35
>how do you know that the original frame was scrapped it could still be out there registered to another bike

It seems to me that this is a minimal risk. How likely is it that someone would have gone to the trouble and expense of buying a replacement frame and rebuilding the bike into it, if the old frame was not in fact a write-off, and someone later resurrected it and built another bike into it?

This seems to me a risk worth taking. If I'm found out, them I will just say that I thought I was doing the right thing, since we had worked out that it was a replacement frame, and the dealer should have stamped it with the original frame number but had obviously failed to do so, so I was doing it for him.

Thanks - Rowan
Title: Re: Frame number
Post by: Rex on 10.11. 2017 18:41
Rex, sorry  but have to disagree ,unless DVLA as seriously changed /improved it's staff . When i took my bike to be checked over the "inspector" was a young kid who didn't know one end of a bike from the other ,He started by calling my bike a Bantam , I had to show him the frame number which He looked at for a nano second , He was much more interested in the receipts which I had in spades . I have to say this was 11 yrs ago  but thatwas how it was done then.

Things have changed a lot. My last one was back in the late Spring, and the inspector was a woman, and an employee of the firm the DVLA have sub-contracted to do inspections at owners homes.
She either knew, or had done some research before her visit, but she knew what she was looking for and what the bike ought to look like.
This-Do not give the DVLA the chance to screw you over. Stamp the frame to match. Seriously, really. Any other route is going to cause you pain.

is a little puzzling. In stamping the frame you would be giving the DVLA every opportunity to "cause you pain", unless you are a pretty good forger and have a set of BSA original font stamps. A set of machine mart 6mm metric stamps aren't going to fool anyone, especially those paid to spot recent restampings. Apparently, DVLA's approach is "restamps are iffy so we'll look a little deeper".
It could be someone who's circumstances are entirely innocent (as yours) but more likely it could be a dodgy number seller, a  stolen frame/bike being given a new identity, an A10 into an RGS, etc etc none of which will impress the DVLA.
Title: Re: Frame number
Post by: BSA_54A10 on 11.11. 2017 04:53
I'd avoid the VMCC if I was you. Apart from the cost (something like £75) they want to know the ins and outs of a rat's a*se; pics of hubs, forks, gearbox etc, and then they act like they're doing you a real big favour by even replying to you.
BSAOC would be better.
Oh yes.....the inspector the DVLA sends isn't just looking for a frame number which corresponds with that in the old log book, s/he also checks that it's been stamped at Armoury Lane way back when.
New or wrong stamps, fonts, positioning will set all the alarm bells ringing.

So if they are all in a strait line , stamped to an even depth , true to the frame & in the same typeface they get called suspicious.  *smile*
Title: Re: Frame number
Post by: rowan.bradley on 11.11. 2017 10:20
If, as someone said earlier, BSA did not issue stamps to dealers, then I would imagine there was no standardisation between dealers on what sort of stamps to use, what font, what size, where to put the stamp etc. Therefore it seems to me that these dealer stamped factory replacement frames must have had all sorts of different stamps, if indeed they were stamped at all. So almost anything ought to be acceptable.

And how would an inspector tell whether a stamp was done recently or back in the 1960s? Especially if the frame has been repainted after stamping?

Maybe a letter height of exactly some number of mm would be a give-away? But 8mm is very close to 5/16" (only .0025" different) so I don't think this will give the game away. Where would one get stamps with heights measured in inches? USA presumably.

Thanks - Rowan

Thanks - Rowan
Title: Re: Frame number
Post by: KiwiGF on 11.11. 2017 12:11
If, as someone said earlier, BSA did not issue stamps to dealers, then I would imagine there was no standardisation between dealers on what sort of stamps to use, what font, what size, where to put the stamp etc. Therefore it seems to me that these dealer stamped factory replacement frames must have had all sorts of different stamps, if indeed they were stamped at all. So almost anything ought to be acceptable.

And how would an inspector tell whether a stamp was done recently or back in the 1960s? Especially if the frame has been repainted after stamping?

Maybe a letter height of exactly some number of mm would be a give-away? But 8mm is very close to 5/16" (only .0025" different) so I don't think this will give the game away. Where would one get stamps with heights measured in inches? USA presumably.

Thanks - Rowan

Thanks - Rowan

I doubt anyone will get out the tape measure! Well not in NZ anyway. Punches are cheap... if it was really required for an expert to decide if your frame was "right" would they not then know, about the stamping of replacement frames etc?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/0-9-NUMBER-A-Z-ALPHABET-LETTER-Metal-Stamp-Punch-set-Tool-Die-Marker-wood-Craft/322364432038?hash=item4b0e6adea6:m:mULL6yNBl9VB7_QSuaCaH2A


Title: Re: Frame number
Post by: BSA_54A10 on 12.11. 2017 13:24
And don't forget that bikes made at different factories had different stamps.
The Bantams made at the Redditch works have a smaller type and a different type face as to those assembled at Small Heath or for that matter the Shipley works.
Gold Stars have different  type & size to std B series engines as the numbers were stamped on by the competition department, not the production line .
Then you got the situation where the model number was stamped on before assembly ( DA 7 ) then the serial part - 12345 got stamped  either on the line or at despatch and again done by different people and may times with different types of stamps.
Title: Re: Frame number
Post by: A10 JWO on 12.11. 2017 17:13
I would be tempted to buy a second hand frame with V5 and bite the bullet . Sell whats left over on ebay, you may end up quids in. Just do everything in good faith.
Title: Re: Frame number
Post by: cyclobutch on 13.11. 2017 13:28
I must be missing something here, and if so then sincerest apologies. But, my reading;

We have a frame with no number at all. We have a V5 for the kind of bike the frame comes from.
The frame is possibly a replacement, which the shop could/should have stamped with whatever stamps they had at the time.

So you can stamp the frame to match the V5 with whatever you want, as the shop would/could have done.

You have the V5 in your name. DVLA need never, ever make any inspection.
The bike does not require an MOT so the test station will not be looking at it either.

So who do we think is going to look at these stampings this side of hell freezing over? 
Title: Re: Frame number
Post by: JulianS on 13.11. 2017 13:39
The earlier post says there is an old log book RF60 it does not mention a V5C.

There have been cases where vehicles with V5 and which have not been taxed for some time to be subject of inspection.
Title: Re: Frame number
Post by: rowan.bradley on 13.11. 2017 14:36
Yes, I have the old RF60, but no V5. the bike has not been taxed since 1973 which was before the V5 was introduced. So as far as DVLA is concerned, it is (as I understand it) unregistered.

I too think it would be extremely difficult for anyone to tell the difference between a frame number stamped by an unknown (and who knows how competent) dealer in 1970-something, and one stamped very recently, especially if the frame has been repainted since. The system is (it seems to me) very open to abuse, and if someone wanted to stamp bogus numbers on frames, whether 40 years ago or now, it would be very difficult to stop them or to find out.

Thanks - Rowan
Title: Re: Frame number
Post by: Rex on 13.11. 2017 15:03
So stamp away and have done with it. You may be lucky in that the person sent to inspect the bike (and there will be an inspection) can't tell the difference, but then if you get a jobsworth who suspects the stampings are relatively recent be prepared for problems ahead.
Ultimately it's your choice.
Title: Re: Frame number
Post by: edboy on 13.11. 2017 20:08
some bikes in the 70 ,s were overstamped by dvla at their old stations. now all gone. and a new v5 issued. i had such a bike stated " assembled from parts" and i dont think it was that uncommon. and it wasnt q plated either. as they closed down all the dvla stations to save money the dvla have no experts left but are happy to say no to everything. the owners club is the only way forward. try a local branch where i m sure someone could help you.
Title: Re: Frame number
Post by: morris on 13.11. 2017 20:46
Shouldn’t DVLA be able to tell you if the frame number you have on your RF60 is currently registered?
If it’s not registered then it shouldn’t be any problem if you restamp yours.
Legally it’s just required that there’s only one frame existing with that particular number ergo size and type of the stamps don’t really matter
Or am I a bit naive here?   :!
Title: Re: Frame number
Post by: cyclobutch on 14.11. 2017 08:45
Ha - I'm at the wrong end of the stick as usual then.

I'm surprised you folks haven't either excommunicated me or at least set me to 'read only' by now.


 
Title: Re: Frame number
Post by: rowan.bradley on 14.11. 2017 11:56
I wrote to the BSAOC and they gave me somewhat different advice to what has appeared in this thread. What they said is:

Quote
Factory replacement frames were often not stamped by dealers.You'll apply to retain the registration number in the normal way but the DVLA will issue a frame number from their own system. This you will need to stamp or have stamped on the frame
and verified/witnessed by an authority such a MOT station or possibly club official.To retain a number,you supply the dating officer with the following items in a registered/recorded delivery postage:

1.Forms v55/5 & V765 filled in as necessary (notes on the BSA website regarding this)
2.Original log book (this will be returned to you by the officer)
3.Pencil rubbings of frame & engine number.(obviously just engine no. in this case)
4.Fee Cheque for £25 payable to BSA OC Library A/c
5.Photos of the complete machine from both sides.Endorse on rear of both:
   'I certify this is true likeness of BSA A10 reg no***   frame no (not known)   engine no.***
    Sign & date both.

Include a note to the dating officer,to state there's no frame number stamping on account of the frame possibly being a
factory replacement.Send all of this evidence to:

Dating Officer,BSA OC.,113 Holmville Road,Bebington,Wirral CH63 2PX

The officer will forward this submitted evidence to the DVLA for their consideration and they will either accept this with a DVLA frame number to be stamped or reject it.It's their decision.

Does anyone have any experience of this process?

Thanks - Rowan
Title: Re: Frame number
Post by: coater87 on 14.11. 2017 14:18
 I am usually completely against re-stamping of any numbers on anything.

 But what I see here:

 You own the bike, its not stolen.

 You are not trying to make a RGS out of something else.

 Your not trying to cheat anyone.

 This was something that should have been done to the frame 50 years ago, and was neglected to be done by no fault of your own. If the same numbers we are talking about now would have been stamped 50 years ago, we would not be having this conversation.

 By going the "bureaucrat" route, and contacting this agency, and that agency, and hoping things will work out in your favor is a fools errand. If thats what you plan to do, STOP sticking money into this project right now and save your money, because it may not work out the way you want.

 Or get some 1/4 inch stamps, drink a few beers and swing the hammer. Hit the restamped numbers with a sander to smooth and age them, and paint the whole works. Be done with this.

 Lee
Title: Re: Frame number
Post by: chaterlea25 on 14.11. 2017 17:39
Hi All,
Lets hope the DVLA are not reading this thread  *warn* *problem* *angry* *pull hair out*
I was told that there was a special dolly that fitted inside the wrapround plate to prevent it denting inwards when the numbers were punched into it ?
Faked number frames can often be seen with the plate dented

John
Title: Re: Frame number
Post by: cyclobutch on 15.11. 2017 12:50
So buy this. Build it up. Sell the registration. You're probably ahead on the deal.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/bsa-1959-a10-s-a-frame-v5c/292326406061?hash=item441002f7ad:g:CLgAAOSwKQ9aBsia
Title: Re: Frame number
Post by: Rex on 15.11. 2017 15:44
....And that one would be MoT-less!
Title: Re: Frame number
Post by: rowan.bradley on 15.11. 2017 16:07
>So buy this. Build it up. Sell the registration. You're probably ahead on the deal.

I'm not sure how that helps me. It gives me a frame with a supposedly genuine frame number on it, but it is not the number in the log book. I suppose it would be the number on the V5, but the engine number would be different. I suppose it might give me a better chance of getting the bike registered with an old reg number, but not the original number of my bike. My frame looks in better nick than this one. I think I'll stick to my frame, and get the stamps...

Thanks - Rowan
Title: Re: Frame number
Post by: harvey mushman on 15.11. 2017 16:43
I am usually completely against re-stamping of any numbers on anything.

 But what I see here:

 You own the bike, its not stolen.

 You are not trying to make a RGS out of something else.

 Your not trying to cheat anyone.

 This was something that should have been done to the frame 50 years ago, and was neglected to be done by no fault of your own. If the same numbers we are talking about now would have been stamped 50 years ago, we would not be having this conversation.

 By going the "bureaucrat" route, and contacting this agency, and that agency, and hoping things will work out in your favor is a fools errand. If thats what you plan to do, STOP sticking money into this project right now and save your money, because it may not work out the way you want.

 Or get some 1/4 inch stamps, drink a few beers and swing the hammer. Hit the restamped numbers with a sander to smooth and age them, and paint the whole works. Be done with this.

 Lee

This gets my vote you aren't trying to swindle anybody here but at risk of being completely open you could end up losing out and become mired with the DVLA.

I have an A10 frame that was restamped in the early eighties (long before i bought it, but knew about it) the stamp is different to Bsa stamping but numbers tie up with DVLA information. It has the original 1959 reg number as well.

Get it stamped and painted take the rubbings, photos etc and get them sent off for dating certificate.

minimal involvement with DVLA is recommended.

Title: Re: Frame number
Post by: bikerbob on 16.11. 2017 15:50
I have been looking at the VMCC website as to their proceedures for reclaiming registrations and they advise ringing the DVLA to check to see if that registration is still available, the number they give is 0300 790 6802 you could try that at least you will know if the registraton number is still available.
Title: Re: Frame number
Post by: rowan.bradley on 21.11. 2017 16:08
Just tried calling the DVLA on that number. When I eventually got to speak to a human being, she said she couldn't tell me whether the original number was still available, and that I needed to call 0300 123 0883. I did this, and after another interminable conversation with a computer, got through to someone who told me that this department only deals with personalised numbers for sale, and the number that I needed to call was the original number, and that the previous person had given me faulty information. At this stage I gave up, defeated by bureaucracy. I am just going to assume that the number is available, and go ahead and apply to re-register under this number, and only if this is rejected worry about what to do next.

I can't quite understand under what circumstances an original number would not be available. The personalised numbers department told me that they only sell numbers that are brand new and have never been allocated to a vehicle, even in the 1950s. So if the original number was not available, what would have made it so?

Thanks - Rowan
Title: Re: Frame number
Post by: cyclobutch on 21.11. 2017 16:31
Welcome to the DVLA.
Title: Re: Frame number
Post by: Rex on 21.11. 2017 18:17
This seems to be a long drawn-out thread, but unless you have rock-solid documentary proof that this RF60 relates to this vehicle then save the hassle and apply for an age-related number.
A fellow riding club member had a similar situation with his A10 about 18 months ago, and even though he had the applied talents of MW-W and the VMCC he still had to admit defeat with his quest for retaining the number believed belonged to his bike. Given the long exchange of letters etc he really wasn't happy with the outcome, though his frame had obviously been stamped decades before.
It wasn't about the number being "available" but about the DVLA's employee being satisfied that there was no possibility of any thing even slightly dubious going on.
Title: Re: Frame number
Post by: rowan.bradley on 21.11. 2017 18:52
What would constitute "rock-solid documentary proof "? All I have is the RF60 saying that I bought this bike in 1967, and that its engine number is the one stamped on the block, and that its frame number is a number that I can't find anywhere on the frame (although I will continue to look for it as I strip down and prepare the frame for painting). I don't think I have a receipt for the £15 I paid for the bike. I can't even think where I would look for this. I don't think I have any files going back that far...

I still think it's worth trying to get it registered with the original number. I don't think I will be TOO disappointed if this fails and I end up with a Q plate. Does having a Q plate versus an original plate tend to affect the resale value?

Thanks - Rowan
Title: Re: Frame number
Post by: trevinoz on 21.11. 2017 20:39
Why are you Brits so obsessed with registration numbers?
Here in Australia mostly we wouldn't have a clue as to the original number and quite frankly couldn't give a damn.
Title: Re: Frame number
Post by: Rex on 21.11. 2017 21:27
I still think it's worth trying to get it registered with the original number. I don't think I will be TOO disappointed if this fails and I end up with a Q plate. Does having a Q plate versus an original plate tend to affect the resale value?
Thanks - Rowan

Without endless repetition, your "problem" is the lack of an authentic frame number, Q plates are very bad news, although I doubt you'd end up with one of them anyway.
Title: Re: Frame number
Post by: Topdad on 22.11. 2017 10:37
Hi Trev, basically as the number issued stays with the vehicle for ever , if you look at the vintage bikes in the run out to Brighton every year some have the earliest registered numbers probably in the world. Obviously they didn't except cars ,bikes etc would last ,just a fad don't you know , but they are still here and it adds to the vehicles history /patina etc = value .
From our stance it's just another additional part in making your bike stand out a little more. I personally wouldn't have been happy with a Q plate and was prepared to jump the various hoops required by DVLA to avoid getting one . Also if my first a7shooters number was available I'd snap it up for pure nostalgia .
Title: Re: Frame number
Post by: chaterlea25 on 22.11. 2017 19:31
Hi All,
Quote
Why are you Brits so obsessed with registration numbers?
(OK I'm going OT here)

A good example of this phenomenon was the price of £24,725 paid for a very ordinary (roughish) condition with wrong year id for the frame and an unnumbered engine on a Trials Ariel at Stafford April auction this year
It wore the reg number GOV 130 which was a works reg number (two number away from S Millers)
As this reg number was moved from bike to bike by the factory it would need referring to the despatch records to see if the frame fitted was sent to the comp shop, no such evidence was offered as far as I could find out
The frame number fits into the "normal " 1957 series
https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/23955/lot/184/

John
Title: Re: Frame number
Post by: Bsareg on 23.11. 2017 09:30
It seems as the rf60 logbook is registered in your name. I have a frogeye sprite that was last taxed by me in 1963. A few years ago, "done it up" , mot'd,  dating certificate,  and walked into local dvla office and came out with v5 being posted . Easy, because I could have claimed a v5 when DVLC was first set up in the 70s ( I was lazy even then ).
Title: Re: Frame number
Post by: bikerboy on 27.12. 2017 17:50
Just stamp the damned thing I have done it more than once and never had any problems with any of it.

The last time I did it I had a V5 within 16 days