The BSA A7-A10 Forum

Technical => Lucas, Electrical, Ignition => Topic started by: Gerry on 30.03. 2014 05:22

Title: Going Electronic MK ll
Post by: Gerry on 30.03. 2014 05:22
Hi all, Don't know whether I should post here or in the engine site!! I just fitted Boyer electronic ignition to my 59 A10 and machined up my own housing to fit it. Got the Boyer years ago and had it fitted to the engine of my B40 sitting in the shed waiting to go into the frame. Was second hand so a bit risky. Cut the white wire from the DVR2 reg/cutout to give me 12 volts and got a 12 volt 35/35 halogen headlight bulb and changed all the other bulbs to 12 volt. Now, before fitting the Boyer I was having trouble with a bad misfire and also a complete shut down. (Trailer job home). So this is why I ventured into the electronic as I thought the problem was the mag armature capacitor breaking down when hot.
What is happening now is the left side cylinder is firing but very weak with a very soft exhaust note but the right side is firing strong with a beautiful exhaust note. So bought another set of new plugs and made no difference. Swapped the leads over to the plugs and still the same on the left hand cyl'. As its wasted spark didn't matter which lead went to which cylinder so that cancelled out the plug caps, leads and coils. Checked compression and am getting 150psi on both cylinders (only done 46 miles since build so not run in yet.) I have fitted a Amal 280 concentric carb' which the bike did run on ok at the start. A friend suggested it might be a broken oil ring but there is absolutely no smoke from either exhaust. I am at my wits end and can't think of anything that would cause this problem other than carb' bias, but seems a bit much for that. Any suggestions guys?
Title: Re: Going Electronic MK ll
Post by: muskrat on 30.03. 2014 06:12
G'day Gerry, you don't say what the plugs look like. Have you strobed the timing on both sides? It doesn't take much of a knock to miss align the coils or magnets.
Bias might be cause (plug colour will tell). My '51 needed a anti bias gasket to richen the right side and ran great for years. Just recently it was faltering on the left so I needed to turn the gasket over, all good again. *dunno*
Cheers
Title: Re: Going Electronic MK ll
Post by: Gerry on 30.03. 2014 07:56
Hi Muskrat, Yeah I have heard of the bias being a problem and haven't got around to strobing, means taking the clutch cover off again!!! I am just about up to here with the thing. What I did do just now though was start it up and close the choke to see if that might give it a better combustion......but no, no difference whatsoever and I thought at least it might be too rich with full choke. Seems strange to me that the choke wouldn't make any difference at all even on the good side!! It starts and idles pretty good other that it sounds more like a single than a twin. Will do the taper gasket thing when I can get one, where are they available from? Cheers and thanks mate. Gerry
Title: Re: Going Electronic MK ll
Post by: muskrat on 30.03. 2014 08:20
Maybe the choke slide isn't going all the way to the bottom. Does it have enough cable to get there. Or is it sticking up?
I made my own bias gasket out of a 1/8" insulator. Just rubbed it down to 1/16" on one side with w&d on a piece of glass.
Throw some new plugs in and let it idle for 5 minutes ( I put a fan in front), and see what the plugs look like.
Cheers
Title: Re: Going Electronic MK ll
Post by: orabanda on 30.03. 2014 09:42
I bought my anti-bias gaskets from Cake Street Classics; most of my bikes have needed the gasket (always leaner on the LH side.

I agree with musky; strobe it!

Richard
Title: Re: Going Electronic MK ll
Post by: Triton Thrasher on 30.03. 2014 10:44
With any suspected Boyer problem, try directly connecting + and - of a battery in a car, to the + and - of the Boyer box.
If that helps, then you know your problem is in powering the Boyer: battery, dynamo, switchgear, fuseholder, earths, somewhere in there!

How does it run with the pipes/silencers removed?

And for goodness sake do the strobe timing!  Right now you have no idea what the spark is timed to.

I don't know what a 280 carburettor is (928?), but it will need to be tuned to your engine. Do you still have the old carb?
Title: Re: Going Electronic MK ll
Post by: muskrat on 30.03. 2014 10:57
This is how I have my plunger set up for a timing light. Each line is 5 degrees. Yes I know the marks are at 35-40 I was trying some av gas +  *eek*.
Cheers
Title: Re: Going Electronic MK ll
Post by: beezermacc on 30.03. 2014 17:38
I would suggest borrowing a good magneto of somebody else's bike which is known to run well. That will tell you if your problem is electrical or elsewhere.
Title: Re: Going Electronic MK ll
Post by: Triton Thrasher on 30.03. 2014 19:53
I would suggest borrowing a good magneto of somebody else's bike which is known to run well.

Good idea.  I think it would go a long way towards solving the mystery,  but....


not the easiest thing to borrow.
Title: Re: Going Electronic MK ll
Post by: chaterlea25 on 30.03. 2014 21:58
HI Gerry,
Have you checked the valve clearances?
Also check for a broken or soft valve spring as this was the issue I came across on an A10 with similar problems to yours,
This was after swoping mag and carb from a known good bike
HTH
John
Title: Re: Going Electronic MK ll
Post by: morris on 30.03. 2014 22:07
Looks to me like it's not sparking well every other cycle.
Don't know if it can be done with a Boyer unit, but if so, have you tried turning the trigger plate 180°?
Title: Re: Going Electronic MK ll
Post by: Gerry on 31.03. 2014 00:38
OK Guys, thanks for all the input. Firstly I must check the choke slide as Wombat says, then obtain or make a tapered gasket/spacer, tuning is not possible until I can get it to run properly on both cyl's., the battery is brand new and fully charged showing 12.7 volts so I don't think that's the problem, broken valve spring could be it though but wouldn't that give me a reduced compression? I will re check the valve clearances though when checking the springs. Having a wasted spark means it fires the same cylinder from the same Boyer coil on the stator so having swapped the leads should have eliminated caps, leads and coils. (Same as turning the stator plate 180 degrees?) The only other thing I have done is swap the mag twice, the first time it turned out to be caused by loose points!!! the second time was due to not being able to see a spark on the left hand new plug which turned out, when I had the mag on the bench, to be sparking but right up inside the body of the plug. I used a drill to drive it. Which leads me to believe the fouled plug was caused by the same problem I have now. The first time I had it on the road it started missing under load up hill and finally carked it and had to get my son to fetch the trailer. The second and last time it went well for about 6 or 7 miles and then started to miss again just after leaving an 80 zone and in a 50 zone, so limped it home and fitted the Boyer. Both times it was well warmed up but had not been over stressed. I could have had this problem right from the start as its hard to pick up on until removing the right hand plug lead. The misfiring could be because there is not enough combustion to keep the plug clean. Oh yes...sorry I meant 928 carb' which is same size as the inlet. The other thing that worries me is that when I machined the housing for the Boyer rotor and stator, I made a mistake and machined the housing out a bit too much allowing the stator to foul the magnets on the rotor so had to realign the stator by feel which means the magnets could be passing the coil post on one side closer than the other!! WHY DIDN'T I TAKE UP GOLF OR MUSIC!!!  Cheers and thanks again guys. Will keep you up to date as and when things hit me in the face. Gerry
Title: Re: Going Electronic MK ll
Post by: WozzA on 31.03. 2014 08:07
Quote
WHY DIDN'T I TAKE UP GOLF OR MUSIC!!! 

You'll know you made the correct decision when she's running right ...  stick with it....  *wink2*
Title: Re: Going Electronic MK ll
Post by: duTch on 31.03. 2014 13:01

Quote
t. Firstly I must check the choke slide as Wombat says,
. *lol* *lol* *beer*

  Sounds like one of those 'pull it apart, find nuthin' wrong, put it back together, and right as rain- like nothin' ever happened' type situations....??
 maybe have a cup of tea or two, then beer and try yet another set of plugs...?? they can be cantankerous..?
Title: Re: Going Electronic MK ll
Post by: muskrat on 31.03. 2014 20:31
Turn the stator plate 180 and see if the problem swaps sides.
Cheers
Title: Re: Going Electronic MK ll
Post by: morris on 31.03. 2014 22:17
Having a wasted spark means it fires the same cylinder from the same Boyer coil on the stator so having swapped the leads should have eliminated caps, leads and coils. (Same as turning the stator plate 180 degrees?)
Well, not exactly, because if there's a fault in one of the stator plate coils, by turning it 180° it should show up on the other cylinder.
Your Boyer's rotor is turning at 1/2 the crank speed, but triggering a spark every 180°, which corresponds with every 360° crank revolution. My theory is that you have a good spark on both cylinders when the right cylinder is on compression and fires, and 360° later when the left one should fire you have a bad spark
Title: Re: Going Electronic MK ll
Post by: chaterlea25 on 31.03. 2014 23:19
Gerry
A duff valve spring will return the valve ok at cranking speed so compression will appear normal
At running speeds the valve will not return fast enough and so misfiring occurs

Some time ago there was an other posting on a similar vein, it turned out that the valve(s) were sticking when hot  due to tight fit in the guides
A dose of upper cylinder lubricant in the petrol solved the issue

HTH
John
Title: Re: Going Electronic MK ll
Post by: Triton Thrasher on 01.04. 2014 06:44
Having a wasted spark means it fires the same cylinder from the same Boyer coil on the stator so having swapped the leads should have eliminated caps, leads and coils. (Same as turning the stator plate 180 degrees?)
Well, not exactly, because if there's a fault in one of the stator plate coils, by turning it 180° it should show up on the other cylinder.
Your Boyer's rotor is turning at 1/2 the crank speed, but triggering a spark every 180°, which corresponds with every 360° crank revolution. My theory is that you have a good spark on both cylinders when the right cylinder is on compression and fires, and 360° later when the left one should fire you have a bad spark

Doesn't the Boyer get its signal from both stator coils, for every spark?
Title: Re: Going Electronic MK ll
Post by: Gerry on 01.04. 2014 23:32
OK fellas, The first thing I am going to do is check the printed circuit board or stator plate which might just be out of center due to my having machined the housing   too big allowing the board to maybe off center enough to allow one coil to be slightly retarded or too far away from the magnet on the rotor. I might have to machine the housing out a little more and shrink a sleeve into it. Been much too hot for this ol' fella to get out the shed these last couple of days. Cheers. Gerry
Title: Re: Going Electronic MK ll
Post by: bsa-bill on 02.04. 2014 11:47
Quote
allowing the board to maybe off center enough to allow one coil to be slightly retarded or too far away from the magnet on the rotor.

As I understand these units I don't think the first bit (one side retarded ) can happen, the magnet passing the coil induces a current that acts as a trigger it either does or does not allow current to the ignition coil, a yes or no situation no maybe in between.
Now the second bit makes sense (too far away) so no current generated or not enough to get a yes, however I'm thinking it would have to be quite a difference in distance for this to happen, any possibility you could measure the gap between both sides.
The wasted spark in this situation adds a degree of difficulty in diagnosis, I'd suggest both plugs out and clamped together and to engine, then turn the engine via the back wheel with the circuit board visible, watch for sparks on both plus simultaneously when the stator passes each of the coils if one is too far away you will get no spark when the magnet passes it.
Hope that makes sense the way it's written
Title: Re: Going Electronic MK ll
Post by: trevinoz on 02.04. 2014 22:04
Gerry,
                    To save me from reading through the whole saga, when you swapped leads, did the problem swap sides? I would think that if the problem is with one of the pick up coils in the unit, swapping leads would swap the problem.

Trev.
Title: Re: Going Electronic MK ll
Post by: cyclobutch on 03.04. 2014 09:04
I do know that on the V50 II which had (somewhat derided) electronic ignition the gap between the trigger and sensor for each side had to be spot on to each other. Although regardless of this the static and advanced timing could be OK, the gap effected at what point the electronics went up the advance curve. So with different gaps whilst on that curve you would have the two cylinders at different stages of advance. This manifested itself as a big flat spot coming up to 3k rpm.
Title: Re: Going Electronic MK ll
Post by: bsa-bill on 03.04. 2014 16:28
Quote
So with different gaps whilst on that curve you would have the two cylinders at different stages of advance

interesting stuff, that would suggest the unit can indeed measure the flux generated.
Title: Re: Going Electronic MK ll
Post by: Gerry on 07.04. 2014 07:38
Hi Guys, OK so here's the latest......tapered off a carb' flange spacer.....no change.....machined up a spacer for the electronic mag' to remove the slop so the stator plate is a nice fit.....no change....removed the carb' and reset the float height....no change....removed the rocker inspection covers and checked the valve springs and the tappet clearances....no change!! So now its head off and check the valve seating...again and maybe reseat the valves on the left hand cylinder. I have had enough for today so am going to celebrate my failures with a cup of tea an get my feet up. Start again tomorrow. ITS GOT TO BE THE BLOODY COMPRESSION. Cheers all and many, many thanks for all the help. It really is appreciated. Gerry
Title: Re: Going Electronic MK ll
Post by: Gerry on 09.04. 2014 10:42
OK Guys, stripped off the head to check valves are seating properly and found I have wasted my time....again. Poured a drop of petrol into the inlet and no leakage after 5 minutes!! Same with the exhausts. Checked the springs and all good. Head gasket is good also. Shoved my hand over the cylinder bores and both sucked my hand hard (no comments!!) Tomorrow  a good friend is coming round with a recon' magneto and another carb off his rocket Gold Star which runs great. So here we go again, put it all back together and firstly try his carb'. If that doesn't improve things I will replace the Boyer with his mag and try that. Will keep the 12 volt system though as I get a bloody good charge with the headlight on. WATCH THIS SPACE......I'm going for a lie down now to recover my poor old aching body.
Title: Re: Going Electronic MK ll
Post by: muskrat on 09.04. 2014 20:25
Don't let it beat you.
Title: Re: Going Electronic MK ll
Post by: chaterlea25 on 09.04. 2014 20:54
Hi Gerry,
I just had a thought, Does the bike have dual exhausts or siamise?
It might be worth trying the bike with the silencers removed in case theres a blockage in one ????

HTH
John
Title: Re: Going Electronic MK ll
Post by: Gerry on 10.04. 2014 00:23
Thanks Muskrat, I shall forge ahead. Funny you should suggest that Chaterlea, once the exhausts and mufflers were off I stuck a piece of 3/4" pipe up the left hand one and its perfectly clear up to the first slight bend in the exhaust. I've got a feeling in me water that its the bloody carb'. Don't ask me why its just that nothing else makes sense!. Today I shall do the re assembly thing after making up a new set of gaskets and hope my mate gets here in time to align the pushrods into the rockers. Last time he came round I had been dicking about for hours trying to get 'em all lined up, he came round and Bob's your uncle!!! done in 5 mins'. with a small thin screwdriver!!! Don't you just hate that? As for starting it without the mufflers, its loud enough on the right side with 'em on, my neighbors will kill me. Takes me back to my innocent youth when I used to ride my Manx up and down my street bringing the neighbors out in droves "cheering me on"  Cheers Gerry
Title: Re: Going Electronic MK ll
Post by: Gerry on 10.04. 2014 12:50
OK head back on, rocker box on with help from my mate fiddling with the bloody pushrods!! Primary cover off and made and fitted a timing disk to the crank behind the spring and a pointer attached to the two 5/16" bolts that secure the inner case to the crank case. Thanks for the pics' of your set up Muskrat. Got out my dusty strobe light, started it up and checked the timing....got no flashing light at all so transferred the strobe lead to the right hand or offside plug lead and lo and behold all working. Revved the engine and timing is spot on at 33 degrees!!! So swapped the strobe back to the left hand or near side lead and still no light even though I do have a spark on that plug. Maybe, just maybe, I am homing in on the problem as it is still not combusting well on the left side. I also realised that I should be using suppressed plug caps which I am not!! Apparently electrical interference from the spark being un suppressed can cause a disruption in the Boyer magic box and also can cause it to fail. So next step is new leads, suppressed caps and a Boyer twin lead 12 volt coil which will be easier to fit than two 6 volt coils.  I haven't given up yet. Oh yes, forgot, I ran it without the mufflers and the right side showed a few flames but not the left side. Watch this space. Gerry
Title: Re: Going Electronic MK ll
Post by: muskrat on 10.04. 2014 13:29
Nice work Gerry.
Check the charge in your battery. The only time I've had flames out the pipe was when the battery was getting low and the boyer wasn't retarding. Charged the battery and was good as gold.
Cheers

I forgot to mention, don't use the bike battery for the timing light. Use another battery eg car/other bike.
Title: Re: Going Electronic MK ll
Post by: Gerry on 10.04. 2014 14:00
Hi Muskrat, Thanks mate. Funny you should say that because that's exactly what I did do, use a separate battery. Plus the timing disk did show the retard at about 12 degrees at as close as I could get to idle.
Title: Re: Going Electronic MK ll
Post by: duTch on 10.04. 2014 23:18

 Hey Gerry, I had a thought that maybe the timing light sensor/pickup on the plug lead needs to be reversed, as doesn't the polarity change- then I got to the Boyer bit, so it likely all different....??

 Just a thought?
Title: Re: Going Electronic MK ll
Post by: Gerry on 11.04. 2014 00:10
Hi Dutch, Thinking about it, I'm going to turn the Boyer stator plate 180 degrees as suggested earlier before I do anything more as I already have the timing plate on and the primary cover off so as to re check the timing once done, at least then I can discount that as the problem or I have found the problem. Having the timing light fail to work on the left hand side does seem to indicate a sparking problem. Could be the Boyer is faulty but I hope not. Cheers. Gerry
Title: Re: Going Electronic MK ll
Post by: duTch on 11.04. 2014 09:06

 not sure you got my drift, you have one with an arrow that pints to the plug? I mean point that opposite->to the unit..?

 just having read people talk about electronic tachos and recently a mention of maggies having 'circular polarity' (my words), where sparks flow ->to the plug one side, and away <-from the plug the other side...?
Title: Re: Going Electronic MK ll
Post by: Gerry on 11.04. 2014 09:50
Hi Dutch, Not sure what you mean, the timing light just surrounds the HT lead which is enough to get the light to work there's no way to connect it any different. Just went and purchased two 5K Ohms plug caps NGK which are recommended by Boyer also a set of new leads and a duel HT lead coil. Too tired now to do any more today but made a set of hex head clutch spring nuts to save all the mucking around trying to tighten or loosen the old slotted head ones with worn slots. Had a length of stainless hex steel which takes an 11/16" AF socket. Thought I'd do that while I had the primary cover off. Cheers. Gerry

Title: Re: Going Electronic MK ll
Post by: bsa-bill on 11.04. 2014 10:41
Quote
the timing light just surrounds the HT lead which is enough to get the light to work there's no way to connect it any different

Yep there is, Dutch has it right, you may need to unclip and rotate the clip 180
Title: Re: Going Electronic MK ll
Post by: Gerry on 11.04. 2014 11:52
OK, never realized that. Will give it a go tomorrow and see what results. Cheers guys. Gerry
Title: Re: Going Electronic MK ll
Post by: muskrat on 11.04. 2014 13:01
I'm sure the reverse polarity thing only applies to a magneto and not to the electronic ignition.
Cheers
Title: Re: Going Electronic MK ll
Post by: bsa-bill on 11.04. 2014 13:44
Quote
reverse polarity thing only applies to a magneto and not to the electronic ignition.

Now you've got me thinking Musky, can't recall what I was using (Maggie or electronic) when I last used the strobe light, nearly bound to have been electronic.
anyway won't the current still be direct and therefore going in one direction or the other, I do know that the strobe only works with it clipped around the cable one way.
Going to be pushed for time to test it today - Garden + shed refurb (yes my memory), finally need to label everything so I can get anything done  without spending hours remembering where stuff is
Title: Re: Going Electronic MK ll
Post by: beezermacc on 13.04. 2014 22:01
Have you tried a magneto on it yet??!!
Title: Re: Going Electronic MK ll
Post by: bsa-bill on 13.04. 2014 22:13
Haven't had a bike started since but will try it tomorrow on both Maggie and electronic and report back, but I'm thinking both a coil and a maggie will produce direct current
Title: Re: Going Electronic MK ll
Post by: bsa-bill on 14.04. 2014 14:17
OK tried the strobe light on both my bikes, same for both magneto and electronic, works fine if you have the arrow pointing towards the plug , absolute Zilch if facing the other way.
Further little bit of info that might help someone someday, the strobe light is a Draper - 12 volt but works on 6 volt fine allowing that the light is not so bright but would be good enough to highlight you timing mark.

Just thought I'd mention both started first kick, Flash settled down to a nice even tickover (of course) RGF needs a good bit of wrist action to keep going until it warms up - still of the opinion it needs to be richer, shed refurb 99.9% there so maybe this week I'll get at it
Title: Re: Going Electronic MK ll
Post by: muskrat on 14.04. 2014 14:58
Bill, don't fall into the trap of trying to tune for a nice idle to early. I'd say the flash is too rich and the RGF is close to the mark. A cold motor needs a richer mixture than a hot one (hence the use of a tickler/choke) so if it "settles down" straight away the pilot is too rich.
Now I'll duck for cover!
Cheers
Title: Re: Going Electronic MK ll
Post by: bsa-bill on 14.04. 2014 15:48
Quote
Now I'll duck for cover!

No that was me - read it in  my other post Two magpies
Title: Re: Going Electronic MK ll
Post by: Gerry on 15.04. 2014 00:47
OK Guys, bit the bullet and stripped the thing for the third (or was it the fourth?) time, and this time took the barrel off too. Nothing!!! Ring gaps are on the max' new ring sizes on the left cylinder and if I remember right the same on the right but I didn't remove those this time. Gaps at 120 degrees. But before I did all this I fitted new plug caps, leads and duel HT lead coil.....no improvement. So I recon I must be missing something with the left hand chamber on the head. Will remove the valves and springs on that side and see if I can pick up a problem such as guides or weak spring. Should I restart this thread in the engine section?? Although still not sure. Cheers. Gerry aka Dirty finger nails.  ps I'm not giving up even if it means a new engine, gearbox, tank, frame and seat!!!
Title: Re: Going Electronic MK ll
Post by: muskrat on 15.04. 2014 10:57
It might be the nut holding the handlebars.LOL
You'd be getting good at rockerbox replacement by now.
The topic could be split if it goes that way.
Cheers
Title: Re: Going Electronic MK ll
Post by: Gerry on 15.04. 2014 11:20
Hi Muskrat....it wouldn't surprise me one little bit. No I recon I have missed something within the left side valves, so am going to remove them 2morrow and do a re check. If push comes to shove I'll take it and get the seats re cut ...again as well as the valves faced. The best part is, the bigger the struggle the greater the satisfaction. I did get the seats cut when I first got the head and fitted and ground in new valves. If the fault does lie there then I wont be too embarrassed at all the work I have put into it as I rejected this as a problem but now got no option. I thought it would have righted itself after my 76th birthday on Sunday but no such luck lol. On second thoughts....i'll try the handlebar bolts!!! Cheers. Gerry
Title: Re: Going Electronic MK ll
Post by: muskrat on 15.04. 2014 13:17
"my 76th birthday on Sunday"
Many happy returns mate.
 *beer*
Title: Re: Going Electronic MK ll
Post by: Gerry on 15.04. 2014 13:32
Cheers Muskrat, Have a good one fella. Have a beer on me :-) Glad I'm not the only silly bugger still mucking about with old bikes. I'd go out of my tree watching tv but I do love what the pc can do for us eh? Gerry
Title: Re: Going Electronic MK ll
Post by: bsa-bill on 15.04. 2014 17:07
Quote
my 76th birthday on Sunday

Congrats Gerry   -  obviously numbers mean not a lot to you
Title: Re: Going Electronic MK ll
Post by: Gerry on 16.04. 2014 00:05
Many thanks Bill, Muskrat & I, plus many others here on the forum, I suspect, were fortunate to have been born to an era when British bikes were in their prime and I think we are now re living our youth!! Much more important though is the nice people you meet when you are into these wonderful old machines. Haven't come across a nasty one yet. Gerry
Title: Re: Going Electronic MK ll
Post by: Gerry on 06.05. 2014 05:56
OK guys, Here's the latest......My nephew came round (just dropped in as had business close by) He suggested using washing up liquid around the head/barrel joint, sure enough bubbles on the left hand side!!! Whooray I thought, found the problem. Got the head off....again!! and checked the level across head and barrel. Could get a feeler gauge of 0.005 in but on the right hand of the barrel but nothing on the head, so off comes the barrel and took both to a local engineering shop with excellent reputation and had both faced....0.004" off the head and 0.007" barrel. Re annealed the head gasket and done the re assembly ....AGAIN!! NO CHANGE!!! but this time when I take the plug lead off the right hand side it stops completely, so worse than before. So now I am concentrating on the carb'. It can only be that its not getting enough gas into the near side chamber. Took the 928 carb'. off and am fitting a 930, too big but it may just give me a different result, who knows. Will post the results here shortly. Didn't get the carb'. off my friend's Rocket yet but hopefully I can get it tonight when going to the BSA Club meet with him. Wish me luck fellas I need it bad. Cheers. Gerry
Title: Re: Going Electronic MK ll
Post by: warmshed on 06.05. 2014 09:24
Sounds like the spark to the left hand side to me, with a single carb I find it hard to believe it would starve just one cylinder.
Title: Re: Going Electronic MK ll
Post by: warmshed on 06.05. 2014 09:48
Read through the whole thread. I would still suspect the Boyer stator plate. Did you try turning though 180 degrees? Until you have reliable fat spark on both cylinders you should not look elsewhere.  You should be able to turn the bike over slowly and see if you get a good spark from both stator coils. You dont need to turn the bike over quickly as you do with a Mag. What area do you live in, if you are  close I will pop over, two heads and a cuppa often help. I am near the Dartford Crossing. If all fails I have a Lucas Rita for an A10 sitting in the garage, you can use it to pinpoint the fault if required. Dave.
Title: Re: Going Electronic MK ll
Post by: warmshed on 06.05. 2014 10:07
OOPs just seen where you live, Adelaide is a bit of of trek from Dartford!
Title: Re: Going Electronic MK ll
Post by: morris on 06.05. 2014 21:09
Gerry,
How about a Colortune? I bought one when I thought having carb trouble, but when checking with the Colortune, I noticed there was a lousy intermittent spark on one cylinder, which made me trace the problem down to ignition.

http://www.gunson.co.uk/item.aspx?code=G4074
Title: Re: Going Electronic MK ll
Post by: Gerry on 07.05. 2014 06:22
Hi Warm Shed & Morris, Many thanks for your input I really appreciate any help I can get. Well I fitted my mates Monoblock carb off his Rocket this morning and it runs better on the right hand cylinder but not at all still on the left one. Why doesn't this surprise me!!! So it appears that I can count out the carb'. Took the head off again and removed the two valves on the left but can't find anything to cause the problem. I have turned the stator plate for the Boyer 180 degrees and that didn't solve it, swapped the plug leads, tried three lots of new plugs, new leads, plug caps, 4 different coils, had the head and barrel faced, annealed the head gasket. There is good compression on the left hand cylinder - 140psi using the kick start and 160psi when running on the right hand cylinder. Only thing I can do now is try my mates magneto but that's a desperate attempt to solve the problem as I have tried two used mags previous to fitting the Boyer. Will keep you all posted as things develop. Thanks for the offer of the Rita ignition Warmshed, pity I don't still live in St Pauls Cray!! Cheers and thanks again. Gerry
Title: Re: Going Electronic MK ll
Post by: bsa-bill on 07.05. 2014 08:54
Might be something, probably not though BUT

Last time I had mine out it went lie a dream, started first kick ran like clockwork , so full of confidence I set out for Wooller yesterday started first second kick, first kick it kicked back just a little, ran like it was on one then on the other but not often both, I thought muck in the carb (I've had this before) it settled down after a while but only if on a steady throttle setting any movement of the grip resulted in pop bangs and hicks, got to Wooler, come to go home started first kick but the running was terrible, perceived but it konked out going up hill, coasted down hill and had a look, it started first kick again, I'm thinking maybe timing slipped, or voltage, switched on the headlamp and it was going to stop AHA voltage so sat with it running for a while to put something in the battery meanwhile fiddled with the toggle switch for the ignition it went better so bypassed the switch, started it up first kick again and got home, not comfortably but got home.
Took the seat of and tested the battery 6.5 volts, not good it's a twelve volt battery.
My thinking so far - it might just be the battery in which case the bikes not charging it or I've a short some where possibly the toggle switch.

with a battery so low it's a wonder it ran at all, the batteries are Burlen gel type not supposed to loose there charge and never have so far so I'm suspecting Dynamo or a short

So Gerry I can't recall if you've mentioned battery or not but might be worth checking
Title: Re: Going Electronic MK ll
Post by: Gerry on 07.05. 2014 10:24
Hi Bill, Yes it is a brand new battery but that doesn't mean I have a good one!! Maybe I'll take it and get it checked out, can't do any harm. I know I couldn't get a spark at one stage and it turned out to be the battery was too low to fire a spark with the Boyer. Gave it a charge up over night and got a good spark. Sounds like the best option at this time. Will see how it turns out. Thanks Bill. Gerry
Title: Re: Going Electronic MK ll
Post by: warmshed on 07.05. 2014 14:01
Always difficult to solve when you are remote.  But It still sounds like a spark issue. 

When you check the spark, being a wasted spark it is hard to determine that you are seeing both sparks. as you have an issue, you could disconnect the wire from the known good stator coil and see if you are still getting sparks. This would prove you have a good spark at the correct time on the faulty cylinder.  Not having a stator to hand I dont know how easy this would be.
As you say you have reversed the stator, then logically it might be the gap to the magnet gap on the faulty side
Your comment sounds a little too coincidental to me, with the added bonus that if it is this it would be easy to rectify.

", I made a mistake and machined the housing out a bit too much allowing the stator to foul the magnets on the rotor so had to realign the stator by feel which means the magnets could be passing the coil post on one side closer than the other"

Good thought is the harder the fault is to find the easier it is to repair once you have found the cause.

Regards Dave
Title: Re: Going Electronic MK ll
Post by: Gerry on 08.05. 2014 01:13
Hi Dave, As far as the oversized bore of the Boyer stator housing goes, I have machined it out and fitted a sleeve to bring the stator back to exactly centre so I don't think that's the problem. Next thing is to replace the head with a twin carb alloy head I bought a while ago which is waiting with new valves and springs and a single carb manifold. Then I shall try another Mag that my friend is going to loan me and has been completely renovated and unused. After that I shall bloody hang myself. Cheers. Gerry
Title: Re: Going Electronic MK ll
Post by: duTch on 08.05. 2014 09:18

 Hey Gerry, Boyer and electronic is out of my league, is why I'm staying outta this and I may have mixed up the info, but if you have a 'wasted spark' I'm sure yo've switched the plug leads? - wouldn't it still run either way...??
Title: Re: Going Electronic MK ll
Post by: warmshed on 08.05. 2014 12:29
Trouble with this Dutch, is that the wasted spark on the good side is the one you need on the other side. If the spark to the faulty side is duff it could also be duff on the good side? if that makes sense.
Thwe wasted spark also makes it difficult to see if you have a spark. One could be good and the one you want can be non existant but you see a good spark (the wasted one) at the plug
Title: Re: Going Electronic MK ll
Post by: bsa-bill on 08.05. 2014 13:27
Just red your mail warmshed and got myself thinking it's a shame they don't do Sparktune for twins with two of the dodahs, then  a light came on, long time ago I bought a set of those neon spark indicators from Halfords, you plug them onto the plug and the HT cable plugs into them in turn and they glow when the plugs sparking, I bought a set , they come in fours, I know I've got one in the plug box where the other three are could take a month to find out, but with two you could see if both plugs are sparking or just one
Title: Re: Going Electronic MK ll
Post by: warmshed on 08.05. 2014 13:44
Not really, both will indicate a spark, you wont be able to differentiate between the spark wanted and the wasted spark, you get both on both plugs. The only way would be  to disconnect the known good stator coil, then the suspect one would be the only one producing sparks.
Title: Re: Going Electronic MK ll
Post by: bsa-bill on 08.05. 2014 14:21
Ah your right
Title: Re: Going Electronic MK ll
Post by: duTch on 08.05. 2014 14:35

 Ok Warmyshed..that's good to know- that I thought I had doUble-duTch sorted, but now I now better.. *conf*

 think I'll butt back out till I have another bright spark... *smile*
Title: Re: Going Electronic MK ll
Post by: chaterlea25 on 09.05. 2014 00:27
Hi Gerry,
To fit the alloy head different head bolts and rockerbox bolts are needed

Reading back over the thread,  if the magnets on the rotor had fouled the pickup coils it may have damaged one of the magnets ????????
I believe some of the posters maybe under the impression that the boyer system has two separate circuits
This is not so
It works using the coils in series on the stator plate, (there is no earth connection)
High tension coils are also wired in series or use a twin spark coil, Which is fitted to your bike?
If twin coils are fitted have you swopped them around?

Problems with Boyers can arise if the stator plates and electronic box are mixed from the different mk systems sold
Have you gone through the information given by boyers ?
http://www.boyerbransden.com/faultfinding.html

Regards
John





Title: Re: Going Electronic MK ll
Post by: Gerry on 09.05. 2014 01:00
Hi Bill, John, Dave & Dutch, Guess what this stupid old idiot never checked in all this time until an older wiser local BSA Club member suggested........"Have you checked for a blockage in the exhaust?" So yesterday in desperation I shoved a garden hose into the head end of the left hand exhaust........couldn't get it to go right through no matter how hard I tried!!! Check out the attached pic'. Has anyone ever seen anything like this. I though the pipes were original so got them and the mufflers re chromed at great expense, but seeing this I'm not sure. Any comments would be greatly appreciated. The obstruction is obviously a professionally fitted sleeve of some sort. Cheers. Gerry
Title: Re: Going Electronic MK ll
Post by: Gerry on 09.05. 2014 01:05
I should have stated that the pointed tangs closest to the end of the pipe have been bent back by me trying to dislodge the insert. There are six in total of these tangs the closest at 180 degrees to each other, the second pair the same but at 90 degrees to the first two and about 1/2" further in, then another pair 1/2" further in in the same position as the first pair!!!
Title: Re: Going Electronic MK ll
Post by: warmshed on 09.05. 2014 01:25
The only thing I can think of is that they were put in by the chroming people and used to fit a wire to hang them in the Vats.
If so they forgot to remove them.

bet you feel relieved you have got to the bottom of your problem.  Well done.

Dave.
Title: Re: Going Electronic MK ll
Post by: Gerry on 09.05. 2014 02:17
Hi Dave, I don't think so as it is too complicated an addition for the chromers to have bothered with, it is a very tight fit and goes about 4" into the pipe plus there is a hole in the side of the pipe they could have used. How about if they were USA pipes and were used without mufflers? This would prevent any person checking if too loud from poking a rod of some sort up there to check. Can't think of any other reason. Cheers. Gerry
Title: Re: Going Electronic MK ll
Post by: Gerry on 09.05. 2014 07:20
Hi all, OK got the insert out of the muffler end of the exhaust pipe. Check out the pics. It is obviously a professionally made insert for some reason or other and as I dioscovered when it was removed there are 10 tangs bent into the inside at right angles to the pipe. I'm now wondering if this would be the cause of the weak or no combustion on the near side? There isn't one in the other pipe and as can be seen in the pics' the outer end is expanded to be a force fit into the pipe. This might restrict the flow of gasses but wouldn't block the pipe completely! Any ideas would be appreciated. Cheers. Gerry
Title: Re: Going Electronic MK ll
Post by: WozzA on 09.05. 2014 07:31
 *eek* They are AFTERMARKET baffles...   *work*
Normally inserted in SETS, not 2 different sizes like your photos.
much like >>>  http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/2-SHORT-LOUVERED-CORE-EXHAUST-BAFFLES-4-LONG-2-OD-PIPES-CUSTOM-HARLEY-B95206-/181323684194?pt=AU_Motorcycle_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2a37bbd962&_uhb=1

EDIT... on 2nd look ...  thats 1 baffle with picture taken @ different angle ? ...
Title: Re: Going Electronic MK ll
Post by: Gerry on 09.05. 2014 07:59
Thanks Wozza, That makes sense and I suppose those on eBay are for fitting into the Harley Furguson exhaust and no muffler fitted. I wondered how they got away with no mufflers here in Oz......now I know. Thing is would it cause the problem I have? I think I'll refit the iron head and that way I should be able to tell if it cures the problem. If I fit the alloy head then I wont know whether the problem was the head or the exhaust.....that's if all comes good once assembled. Wish me luck. Cheers. Gerry
Title: Re: Going Electronic MK ll
Post by: Gerry on 09.05. 2014 08:14
Hi all, Here's another thought I just came up with. Would the fact that I have mounted the Boyer magic box right next to the DVR2 in the tool box give me problems. I know the Boyer requires 5K Ohms plug caps to stop electrical interference so would the same problem occur due to the way I have mounted the Boyer box? Cheers. Gerry
Title: Re: Going Electronic MK ll
Post by: WozzA on 09.05. 2014 08:16
It certainly would create a lot of back pressure in that side...
I'd check that both headers are clear through, then give her another run with the mufflers on...
see how she goes..    good luck..   *good3*

And usually Harley GENTLEMEN would only stick them in their exhaust to pass a RWC... 
then removed asap..    *whistle*
Title: Re: Going Electronic MK ll
Post by: duTch on 09.05. 2014 08:22

 Yep- had me baffled too..!
Title: Re: Going Electronic MK ll
Post by: Gerry on 09.05. 2014 08:27
But not as baffled as me Dutch!!
Title: Re: Going Electronic MK ll
Post by: bsa-bill on 09.05. 2014 09:22
Coincidence -  on Sunday, I was saying the Goldie pipes are quite loud and had thought of trying  a pair of (alleged) Campell's and someone mentioned these baffles to quieten the Goldies a tad, all the rest of the lads told me not to be silly ;)
Title: Re: Going Electronic MK ll
Post by: Gerry on 20.05. 2014 07:20
The saga may be over!!!! Fitted the correct monoblock from a friend who informed me it had come off his bike and gave no problems......still no joy. Then he lent me two K2F mags to try. Chucked off the Boyer and tried the first mag....still got the problem, so in desperation and as a last resort, fitted the second mag. Couldn't get it to run for more than a couple of seconds!! Checked the timing and it must have shifted while tightening the gear nut. Reset it and double checked it was correct and AWAY SHE WENT!!!!    WHOOOOHOOO at last she goes well on both cylinders. The mag I am borrowing until mine gets overhauled is a manual advance job and luckily I had the correct gear for it which I had used on the Boyer. So four different mags including the Boyer before all came good. One or two kicks and she springs into life beautifully. Thanks for all the suggestions guys, I couldn't have got this far with out your expertise and help. Many many thanks you are the best!! Gerry
Title: Re: Going Electronic MK ll
Post by: Brian on 20.05. 2014 08:22
Thats great news Gerry.

I know I will get critised for this but I still reckon a mag is better than electronic on our old bikes. The catch is you must have a good mag and it must be reconditioned by a reputable repairer.

I have a few old bikes and they are all still on magneto's, they all start first or second kick hot, cold, or anywhere inbetween.
Title: Re: Going Electronic MK ll
Post by: duTch on 20.05. 2014 09:18

 That's good to know Gerry thanks and good luck - now get out and give it a good floggin'..!!!
Title: Re: Going Electronic MK ll
Post by: Gerry on 20.05. 2014 09:40
Thanks Brian and Dutch, I can't believe how much heart ache this bike has given me...now comes the running in and can't wait to hear that wonderful sound. Trouble with the Boyer, even if it is good, how important it is to keep the battery fully charged or your left in the lurch with no spark, but with the mag, providing it is a good one, you don't have to worry about the battery being low as I know I have a good dynamo which will soon bring the battery back to a good condition. I can remember when the British bikes first came to rely on a battery being good to be able to get a spark and how load the outcry was against it. Cheers fellas. Gerry
Title: Re: Going Electronic MK ll
Post by: bsa-bill on 20.05. 2014 10:25
Gerry I have both systems and when their both good their really good, if not in top nik both have in my mind a similar propensity to fail sure the battery has to be good for electronic but that's about it, a Maggie is independent but has more opportunity (bits) to cause grief.
All in all I'd be inclined to call it a draw maybe ease of timing and able to use modern plugs is a extra benefit for electronic to out way the original look of a Maggie which I do like
Title: Re: Going Electronic MK ll
Post by: beezermacc on 23.05. 2014 00:17
Everybody hates an 'I told you so' so, at the risk of becoming very unpopular it was 30th March when I suggested borrowing a known good magneto off another bike!  I shudder to think of the time and melted brain cells used up trying to get this bike running properly. Everybody will have their preferences but these bikes ran perfectly well in the 50's and 60's on magnetos. The material we use nowadays when restoring magnetos is superior to the original Lucas stuff so a properly restored magneto should last yonks and cost a lot less than all that oversophisticated electrickery. The lesson here is, unless you are trying to get racing performance [in which case go and buy a Suzuki Bandit] keep it standard, then if anything goes wrong you can fix it using the technology of the day. I'll put my crash helmet on whilst all the usual suspects throw insults and bits of electronic ignition at me!
Title: Re: Going Electronic MK ll
Post by: Gerry on 23.05. 2014 07:08
Hi Bill, Yep at least three pounds of dead brain cells!!!  Took it for a run yesterday and sounded good for the first kilo then started to miss at low revs but picked up fine if I opened it up!! Now, is it plugs, I doubt it as it wouldn't have come good when given a handful. So maybe starving while on the idle jet. I know I have good fuel supply which would have got worse when opened up but it came good every time. Slide cutaway? which is 3.5 and shouldn't have been so dramatic I don't think. I believe someone "up there" is telling me something along the lines of "give it up you old git, your too bloody old" Cheers and still trying.... Gerry
Title: Re: Going Electronic MK ll
Post by: bsa-bill on 23.05. 2014 09:02
Quote
so a properly restored magneto should last yonks and cost a lot less

Should last yes, cost less no not where I got mine done and it should start and run a bike even with 9.1 compression - unfortunately my "restored" Magneto didn't, it will last forever in a box however or until I get time and funds to have it looked at by someone here.
Yes I should have sent it back to them/him but was by that time leg kicked into submission
Title: Re: Going Electronic MK ll
Post by: Peter in Aus on 21.08. 2014 05:05
Hi Gerry just read this thread very interesting and glad you are having some luck with the problem you where having, I to had a similar problem but mine would run OK till it wormed up and then backfire/misfire and run on one cylinder, you didn't say if you had new valve guides fitted as I did and it turned out to be that the Ex. valve guides where to tight causing partial seizure.
Took the head back to the repairer had .001 honed out of the Ex. guides and it fixed the problem.
though this might be of some interest as you said it was misfiring when warmed up.
Cheers
Peter     
Title: Re: Going Electronic MK ll
Post by: Alex kettle on 22.08. 2014 12:48
A few people throughout this thread have mentioned the possibility about having thier magneto refurbed. If its alright too,  I can highly reccomend beezermacc aka Priory Magnetos whom i had do mine and did an excellent job, with fast turn around. It has to be the brightest spark i have ever seen on any igition system.
Many thanks again Andrew for a job well done

Alex kettle