The BSA A7-A10 Forum

Technical => A7 & A10 Engine => Topic started by: ShaunMac on 10.05. 2014 16:26

Title: Lubrication (rebuild, 1st startup)
Post by: ShaunMac on 10.05. 2014 16:26
So I've put my engine oil. Getting close!
Just wondering, someone advised me on here to kick the bike over without the plugs in to get the oil circulating. I've put it in gear and ran the rear wheel for a few minutes but got nothing returning.
2 questions....how long should it be before I'm getting oil returning?
And how else would you reccomend to check I'm getting oil circulating?

Cheers,
Shaun
Title: Re: Lubrication (rebuild, 1st startup)
Post by: Rgs-Bill on 10.05. 2014 20:03
WORDS TO THE WISE/OIL

adm edit: please do not change topic title, just start a new topic if any existing title is not descriptive. Thanks.

Warning, I am reading that a lot of you fellas are using Castrol GTX. 20/50  I just had the oil in my car changed (US of A) and they put Castrol GTX 20/50 in the car.  Now I called Castrol US, and asked them if there is enough of the two types of zinc in this oil labeled with just a circle and API SERVICE OF SN.  The gal I talked to said we no longer give that Information to the public,  RED FLAGS  RED FLAGS !!!!  Turns out Independent testing was done by other oil PEOPLE, and SN RATED oil only has 6 parts per million of the zincs.  Now you fellas running  MOTORS STAMPED WITH HHC   all are running dual valve springs with high spring pressures, AND NEED A MINIMUM of 12 parts per million to keep from galling the cam lobes and cam followers etc.  Now here is the real kicker , if the circle has a star burst around it, that has practically no zinc.  This oil can they gave me says right on it, not for sale out side the US, no starburst though just a plain API circle with 20/50 and SN in it.  Now you Brit fellas may not have the same problem yet, because the environmental cops have not come to you yet. The Valvolene racing oil still has 12 ppm or better, but the container has to say not for street use, to have 12 to 14 ppm. This is going to be a major engine failure type of problem if we are not careful.  I have no Idea if the BSA motors with single valve spring pressures, are ok with the new oils.  Muskrat, our forum moderator, says he uses NULON with great results, to avoid any wear, when the squeeze factor, squeezes the oil out in the oil shear syndrome, and it is metal to metal.  This is when the  2  zinc products protect the metal to metal contact from galling. Some have said that over the many years we have had the zinc, it works its way into the metal, and some of the hardness remains after the zinc is long gone, to prevent galling.  But this could just be the oil companies saying this trying to save their market share, for oil sales of older push rod type motors with high spring pressures.  I do know that the air cooled Porsche racers are having more engine failures, as is the drag racers, you can google that right  on the net. JUST BE BETTER OFF SAFE THAN SORRY !!!! I would like to know what the U S of A equivalent of  NULON  would be , if any one could help ??

                                      BILL
Title: Re: Lubrication (rebuild, 1st startup)
Post by: RichardL on 10.05. 2014 20:10
For priming one of their pumps, SRM recommends removing the PRV and kicking until oil comes out that hole. I believe it should also be possible to kick until oil appears at the outlet tube visible near the top of the tank. I may have forgotten comments you've made about past experience, so forgive me if I am stating the obvious: the oil emerges out of a small hole near the top and on the side of the aforementioned tube. The hole face back-left. I think you should get oil returning to the tank in about 25 kicks, but hot really sure.

Richard L.

P.S. Maybe repeating something posted just before me.
Title: Re: Lubrication (rebuild, 1st startup)
Post by: RichardL on 10.05. 2014 20:33
Bill,

I learned about ZDDP from a gent at the Davenport swap meet last August. I had been using Castrol 20/50. I studied some and learned about the need for ZDDP with flat tappets and then about Valvoline VR1. I think the number for zinc in VR1 is 1400 ppm (unless the spec sheet I saw online is in error). It was when I went to change to the VR1 in September that I discovered shim bits in the sump. The VR1 still sits on the shelf as I get closer to completing the rebuild.

I am wondering if having single valve springs really saves one from lack of ZDDP.

Richard L.
Title: Re: Lubrication (rebuild, 1st startup)
Post by: ShaunMac on 10.05. 2014 20:40
Thanks guys, will try removing the pressure relief valve. Just very very nervous about starting her considering the money I've spent!  *conf*
Title: Re: Lubrication (rebuild, 1st startup)
Post by: a10gf on 10.05. 2014 21:37
Hello, as far as I remember, always took 'some' time even with the engine running before there was enough oil in the sump for the pump to give normal signs of supply back to the tank. A short, intense wait.... & priming the pump with a good dose of kicking is very wise.
Title: Re: Lubrication (rebuild, 1st startup)
Post by: RichardL on 10.05. 2014 21:57
By the way, in case I caused confusion, my broken-up shims were unrelated to lack of ZDDP. It just happens they were discovered when I went to change over to the VR1.

E,

You're right. I just remembered that when I kicked oil back to the tank (a few weeks ago) it was with an intentional sump-full.

Richard L.
Title: Re: Lubrication (rebuild, 1st startup)
Post by: trevinoz on 10.05. 2014 22:53
I have just started the Flash after some time down waiting for me to replace the magneto and clean the oil out of the clutch.
The oil level in the tank was going down but the scavenge wasn't returning oil, so I assumed that the engine was being lubricated.
I had to give the engine a bit of a rev to get the oil returning.
Presumably oil had drained from the sump pick-up and the pump needed a bit speed to raise the oil to the pump.

Trev.
Title: Re: Lubrication (rebuild, 1st startup)
Post by: KiwiGF on 10.05. 2014 22:59
starting after a rebuild is worrying. *help*

I reckon walking the bike in gear with plugs out until you see oil returning to the tank is safest method.

Only took about a 100m on mine, if that.
Title: Re: Lubrication (rebuild, 1st startup)
Post by: Topdad on 11.05. 2014 09:00
I just kicked mine over minus plugs and kicked her over and kicked her over until eventually I saw the blessed fluid returning. certainly helped the leg muscles!  I didn'have the room to walk her or would have used that method.JUst keep going Shaun you'll get there!! BobH
Title: Re: Lubrication (rebuild, 1st startup)
Post by: bsa-bill on 11.05. 2014 09:32
Doubt if BSA had time to walk them, maybe they had a machine that turned them over , rolling road or something.
 but probably they used an assembly fluid/paste that protect the main bits until the pump comes in.
I used some of this on mine
Title: Re: Lubrication (rebuild, 1st startup)
Post by: ShaunMac on 11.05. 2014 10:37
Got to go to work today so that'll be tomorrow's job. I've had the sump plug out overnight and the oils stayed in the tank so I'll take that as a positive.
Thanks all.
Title: Re: Lubrication (rebuild, 1st startup)
Post by: muskrat on 11.05. 2014 10:41
A rebuilt motor should be well oiled during assembly. I fill the cam trough as well. Before fitting the oil pump I turn motor to BDC and use an oil can to pump the crankshaft full as well.
Failing that loosen the OPRV and turn over till it weeps out there. Oil should be seen returning to the tank within 15-20 seconds of start up.
Cheers

PS Bill, multi grades for motors with spin on filters in the return line and pre SH rated is OK.
Title: Re: Lubrication (rebuild, 1st startup)
Post by: bsa-bill on 11.05. 2014 12:17
I've never loosened the PRV but follow your oiling method Muskrat including a bit poured down the pushrod tunnel, big ends treated to a smear (just a smear) of assembly paste, it smokes a bit once started but not for long (ha they do that anyway)

RGS-Bill in the UK Halfords sell oil according to the vehicles age (I think four ranges) hopefully they are a big enough firm to want to protect their reputation by getting it right, anyway haven't heard of any issues and not had any myself, GTX -well I've used it without problems but really given the intervals that most of us change our oil the cheapest will be as good as any and probably better than what was around in the day.
I do recall topping my old Flash up with tractor high detergent oil, now that was NOT a good idea but at 18 transport was transport and The White Swan was a destination to be transported to   *beer*
Title: Re: Lubrication (rebuild, 1st startup)
Post by: RichardL on 11.05. 2014 13:58
BSA-BILL,

As I understand this, the problem is that manufacturers have quietly reduced zinc levels over a number of years in order to satisfy the needs of catalytic converters. For example, I read where GTX 20-50 currently has less than half of its pre-2006 levels. There are a lot of articles about this so I just grabbed one to show here, but not sure it's the most comprehensive.

http://www.macysgarage.com/myweb6/ZDDP.htm

(This is the revised link; a pretty good article)

Richard L.

Apologies to Admin, I probably should have taken the initiative to move this to a ZDDP topic.
Title: Re: Lubrication (rebuild, 1st startup)
Post by: ShaunMac on 17.05. 2014 14:52
Gave the bike a bit of a walk but getting nothing back. Took the return pipe off at the block and there was a drip. Took the prv out and again a drip or two.
I'm wondering if it's not enough to get the pump spinning to return?
It's been well lubed on the rebuild (top end only) so I'm wondering how long should I run it for safely before I need to shut down if I'm not getting any return?
Title: Re: Lubrication (rebuild, 1st startup)
Post by: muskrat on 18.05. 2014 11:43
With the PRV out you should have a fair bit (what would normally feed the crank) coming out. The feed side is blocked or the pump ain't pumpin'
Cheers
Title: Re: Lubrication (rebuild, 1st startup)
Post by: ShaunMac on 18.05. 2014 16:17
Took the feed pipe off and nothing but a trickle.
Drained the oil from the tank and a lot of sludge in the bottom.
I think I'm going to bite the bullet and get a new oil pump too.

How would you reccomend cleaning the oil tank of the sludge?
Title: Re: Lubrication (rebuild, 1st startup)
Post by: charles whitfield on 18.05. 2014 20:22
Please - Take it off and wash it out with Paraffin (Kerosine?)
I read this thread with great interest - and had a look inside mine - You won't believe what I just found
A mystery solved, but expensive
Have a look at the Whitsend thread
Title: Re: Lubrication (rebuild, 1st startup)
Post by: ShaunMac on 18.05. 2014 21:14
Took the tank off and have it a swilling with petrol. Full of black gunk. Have left it soaking with petrol for a few days and will blow the lines out.
Glad I checked now!
Title: Re: Lubrication (rebuild, 1st startup)
Post by: Topdad on 19.05. 2014 11:40
Shaun , I think other people had mentioned about cleaning the tank out and I'm now going to flush mine out again. Just remembered how bad mine was when I first rebuilt the bike . You get all that work done and miss something so basic ! well at least I did ! Maybe just the fact that you want the bike to go and you get a blood rush or something. Mine had a considerable amount of fine dried dirt/metal that after the first run caused the rocker feed to block on my first run and I had a valve stick ,guite a push home . Stripped the top end changed a valve and all was well again .I had cleaned mine out and was convinced it was ok and clean but when I looked after the head had been done I found a considerable amount at the bottom which was at least an half inch deep . I had the tank  power blasted and dried and then changed the oil at least 3 times to get the residual shit out of the system which fortunately did seem to clear it all out . So forearmed is forewarned thay'll be my job during this week ,best wishes BobH
Title: Re: Lubrication (rebuild, 1st startup)
Post by: ShaunMac on 19.05. 2014 18:49
It's definitely been an oversight.
Concentrated too much on the outside of the tank and the paint job and completely forgot to see what it was like inside!
Title: Re: Lubrication (rebuild, 1st startup)
Post by: ShaunMac on 21.05. 2014 16:49
Sick as a dog!
New oil pump arrived and removed the worm drive gear.
Glad I did as I felt lift in the crank.
Strip down again and more expense!

I'm going to go and lay on a beach for a week to see if that makes me feel better.
Viva Espana!
Cheers
Title: Re: Lubrication (rebuild, 1st startup)
Post by: muskrat on 21.05. 2014 20:43
Bugga.
Too many times I've seen a bottom end go just after a top end job has been done. If the top end looks sad with wear have a real good look at the bottom and check everything.
Look on the bright side Shaun. It's not as cold in the shed at night now (Nth Hemi) and once done you'll have a brand new motor.
Have a nice relax then get stuck in.
Cheers
Title: Re: Lubrication (rebuild, 1st startup)
Post by: ShaunMac on 21.05. 2014 20:57
Live and learn!  ;)