The BSA A7-A10 Forum

Technical => Frame => Topic started by: Bill ss on 05.06. 2014 21:48

Title: Oil tank filter
Post by: Bill ss on 05.06. 2014 21:48
I need to give my bike an oil change but i don't have a socket to fit the drain bolt,doe's anyone know the size,i assume its whitworth.
Title: Re: Oil tank filter
Post by: duTch on 05.06. 2014 23:38

 'day Bill, what kind of bike is it....? A10/7 Sump stud nuts are 3/8 WW - 7/16 A/F....unless it has Allen heads?
Title: Re: Oil tank filter
Post by: wilko on 05.06. 2014 23:59
Actually a 7/16th socket wont fit the whitworth. A fraction too small unless the nut is well worn.
Title: Re: Oil tank filter
Post by: Billybream on 06.06. 2014 08:28
Hi Bill.
If you are talking about a swinging arm oil tank filter the size is 3/4W (7/8 BS), its the same size as the fork top nuts.
Title: Re: Oil tank filter
Post by: Bill ss on 06.06. 2014 16:43
Hi Bill.
If you are talking about a swinging arm oil tank filter the size is 3/4W (7/8 BS), its the same size as the fork top nuts.


Yes thats the one swinging arm a7 the oil in it is about 30 years old and i don't want to use the bike until the oil is changed.


Allso will i need to take the sump plate off for the oil change?
Title: Re: Oil tank filter
Post by: Billybream on 06.06. 2014 18:29
The sump plate needs to come off as well.
I would be concerned if the oli is 30 years old, has the engine been run during this time, or just left standing idle.
You will expect to find a lot of sludge to be present in the bottom of the oil tank, and its not easy to flush out.. Main worry will be the sludge trap in the middle of the crank, if its any thing like mine after years of standing it will be completly blocked and prevent oil flow throughout the engine. Worst case would be engine strip down and inspection check up and clean.
Title: Re: Oil tank filter
Post by: Bill ss on 06.06. 2014 19:44
The sump plate needs to come off as well.
I would be concerned if the oli is 30 years old, has the engine been run during this time, or just left standing idle.
You will expect to find a lot of sludge to be present in the bottom of the oil tank, and its not easy to flush out.. Main worry will be the sludge trap in the middle of the crank, if its any thing like mine after years of standing it will be completly blocked and prevent oil flow throughout the engine. Worst case would be engine strip down and inspection check up and clean.


I was told the engine was a rebuild with 19 miles on it,it has been run recently and the oil is returning to the tank,i think it has mainly stood for the last 30 years.

The last owner died and the family asked the local bike shop to sell it on for them.
Title: Re: Oil tank filter
Post by: muskrat on 06.06. 2014 22:23
G'day Bill.
Yes remove the sump plate and clean it out. It would also be a good idea to remove the oil tank and give it a GOOD cleanout. Not knowing what has been done it's better to err on the safe side. The sludge trap "should" have been done in the rebuild.
Cheers
Title: Re: Oil tank filter
Post by: Jules on 07.06. 2014 04:19
I think this is a really good case for using a "flushing" oil - not recognised so much these days but in the old days it was always a good recommendation to clear out the sludge. Get it hot running at no load with a few revs for a while then flush it all out before filling with the good stuff ...
Title: Re: Oil tank filter
Post by: muskrat on 07.06. 2014 09:25
You come anywhere near my bikes with flushing oil and I'll sic the dog onya. *bash* Just kidding mate but.
It will pick up the sludge (grinding paste) in the trap and feed it to the big ends then hone the oil pump. The good "stuff" might need to be 90/140 gearbox oil  *ex* No I'm afraid it's the old manual labor to clean it out.
Cheers
Title: Re: Oil tank filter
Post by: Jules on 08.06. 2014 06:46
Hmmm, very interesting Muskrat, why would "sludge" do that, its "only" emulsefied oil after all, yeah it will have exhaust by products in it to create the mess, but if it has "grinding paste" then the ends are probably well gone anyway, plus if its blocked the oilway kiss goodbye to the bearings anyway  *eek*. or are you suggesting that the "flushing oil" would have that kind of stuff in it??
I understand what you are saying though that the only way to be thorough is to pull it all down, but thats not what Bill is really looking to do here, if the bike has only done 19 miles of running then surely just a flush (maybe with good oil  *smiley4*) then drain and refill??
Title: Re: Oil tank filter
Post by: bsa-bill on 08.06. 2014 08:28
Hi Jules and Bill
 it's because the bike has only done 19 miles that I would be worried about flushing oil too.
It's the first few miles that will create the small particles of metal from the running in process that the sludge trap will catch, also other than what was said somewhere what  proof is there that the bike has only done 19 miles, has had the engine worked on at all or been stored unused for whatever time.

If it were mine I'd be for putting the cash for flushing oil towards a tear down but know how it is to want to get on the road, suggest you buy some cheap non or low detergent oil, change the oil, give it a short fire up or small run and change the oil again, if it sounds good then enjoy it.
oil that's stood still for 30 years will have gone through many many temp and humidity changes (even in the engine) so will be full of water, water = rust on steel bits (bearing cages, gears, cams and so on)

best of luck with it though - enjoy

Title: Re: Oil tank filter
Post by: muskrat on 08.06. 2014 08:32
G'day Jules, it also has lots of steel, cast iron, brass and aluminium particles. So after it's washed out of the sludge trap and into the bigends, it's splashed around and into all the bushes. Then it's pumped back to the tank. It's fine enough to pass straight through the tank filter (fly wire) and pumped around again.
I'm all for putting proper oil in and changing it after a good ride (50-100 miles).
I would thoroughly clean the tank first before anything else.
Cheers

Just saw Bill's post. Dito
Title: Re: Oil tank filter
Post by: Jules on 09.06. 2014 02:41
Good perspective, thanks Bill/Muskie....
Title: Re: Oil tank filter
Post by: BSA_54A10 on 09.06. 2014 09:13
Since becoming a mower mechanic I have inherited an oil suction pump and I would strongly suggest you consider doing the same.
When I think of all the years I have been cutting sections out of a plastic funnel trying to get it to fit under the tank, let alone all of the pans of oil I have put my fat foot into I really can not believe I have been doing it that way for so long.
So do yourself a favour & get a pump it will only cost about 3 times the spannar's price and will turn the second messiest job into a five minutes in your Sunday bests one.
Title: Re: Oil tank filter
Post by: Topdad on 09.06. 2014 10:09
Hi Bill , re the oil I buy mine from Merseymotor cycles on Regent Rd Bootle ,£19 x 5 ltrs is a much better price than the £36 quoted by another local shop which is also a Royal Enfield dealer . At that price I think you could drain , fill and run it for a time then change again all for what you could have paid anyway plus you'll have peace of mind knowing the oils fine . Sounds perdantic but I'd take the tank off first ,clean out completely ,has per previous posts, reinstall fill run and then take it off again and clean it out again, that way you'll see just how clean or not the inside is ,regards BobH ps no association with the named shop.
Title: Re: Oil tank filter
Post by: bsa-bill on 09.06. 2014 10:39
these also with free delivery (Amazon)

20/50
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Comma-CLA20505L-20W-Classic-Motor/dp/B002RPJ67E/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1402306485&sr=8-1&keywords=classic+motor+oil (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Comma-CLA20505L-20W-Classic-Motor/dp/B002RPJ67E/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1402306485&sr=8-1&keywords=classic+motor+oil)

30
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Comma-CLA305L-Classic-Motor-Oil/dp/B002RPFJ7K/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1402306626&sr=8-2&keywords=classic+motor+oil (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Comma-CLA305L-Classic-Motor-Oil/dp/B002RPFJ7K/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1402306626&sr=8-2&keywords=classic+motor+oil)
Title: Re: Oil tank filter
Post by: Bill ss on 09.06. 2014 17:24
these also with free delivery (Amazon)

20/50
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Comma-CLA20505L-20W-Classic-Motor/dp/B002RPJ67E/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1402306485&sr=8-1&keywords=classic+motor+oil (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Comma-CLA20505L-20W-Classic-Motor/dp/B002RPJ67E/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1402306485&sr=8-1&keywords=classic+motor+oil)

30
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Comma-CLA305L-Classic-Motor-Oil/dp/B002RPFJ7K/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1402306626&sr=8-2&keywords=classic+motor+oil (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Comma-CLA305L-Classic-Motor-Oil/dp/B002RPFJ7K/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1402306626&sr=8-2&keywords=classic+motor+oil)


Thank Bill,and everyone else all this help is priceless.
Title: Re: Oil tank filter
Post by: muskrat on 09.06. 2014 20:28
If you use a multigrade it is advisable to use a filter in the return line. Multi's carry the rubbish to the filter, mono's leave it for the sludge trap.
Cheers
Title: Re: Oil tank filter
Post by: Gerry on 30.06. 2014 07:41
OK just a correction here....the tank "filter" should be called a strainer as it is definitely not a filter although called that, it is a misnomer. As said here earlier "it will allow minute (and not so minute) solids of various description to pass through and continue to wear out items in the engine. Why have the military of many countries insisted on a good quality filter which is either of the felt type (M20) or paper (B40) to be fitted in the return line of their machines? Because the strainer in the tank does just about bugger all in the way of stopping foreign bodies from circulating in the oil. The British Army B40 had a British Filters paper element fitted in the return line of all their bikes yet BSA still didn't fit one as standard on any civilian bikes. Cost saving I imagine. I made sure I fitted one to the Ceefer before even starting it after the rebuild. Now I'll get off my soap box. Cheers. Gerry
Title: Re: Oil tank filter
Post by: Bill ss on 30.06. 2014 16:49
After looking at the filter/strainer i will be fitting a inline filter,lots of good tips thanks guys. *smile*
Title: Re: Oil tank filter
Post by: Triton Thrasher on 30.06. 2014 18:03
If you use a multigrade it is advisable to use a filter in the return line. Multi's carry the rubbish to the filter, mono's leave it for the sludge trap.
Cheers

They must have clever additives that know how far to carry "rubbish."

The real difference is that multigrade oil doesn't thin out so much when hot.
Title: Re: Oil tank filter
Post by: vwphillips on 03.07. 2014 16:47
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BSA-Fork-Top-Nut-Spanner-Tool-A7-A10-B31-Gold-Star-RGS-/300610384223 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BSA-Fork-Top-Nut-Spanner-Tool-A7-A10-B31-Gold-Star-RGS-/300610384223)
Title: Re: Oil tank filter
Post by: BSA_54A10 on 04.07. 2014 10:13
If you use a multigrade it is advisable to use a filter in the return line. Multi's carry the rubbish to the filter, mono's leave it for the sludge trap.
Cheers

They must have clever additives that know how far to carry "rubbish."

The real difference is that multigrade oil doesn't thin out so much when hot.

Yes they really are clever .
Multigrades use detergent addatives that are homophobic so after they totally envelope the impurity paticale they prevent any further agglomeration so the now quite big envelope of addatives with crud in the middle can not pass through the filter medium

Monograde's detergent addatives are homephillic so after they envelope the crud they join together at infinitum to form a big lump of crud which sinks to the bottom of the oil tank to form a sludge.
Title: Re: Oil tank filter
Post by: charles whitfield on 04.07. 2014 18:23
The sump plate needs to come off as well.
I would be concerned if the oli is 30 years old, has the engine been run during this time, or just left standing idle.
You will expect to find a lot of sludge to be present in the bottom of the oil tank, and its not easy to flush out.. Main worry will be the sludge trap in the middle of the crank, if its any thing like mine after years of standing it will be completly blocked and prevent oil flow throughout the engine. Worst case would be engine strip down and inspection check up and clean.


I was told the engine was a rebuild with 19 miles on it,it has been run recently and the oil is returning to the tank,i think it has mainly stood for the last 30 years.

The last owner died and the family asked the local bike shop to sell it on for them.
Having been involved in house clearance for years, I would take the 19 miles, not run much, dealer involved story with more than a pinch of salt. Call me cynical? 
Title: Re: Oil tank filter
Post by: Greybeard on 04.07. 2014 20:44
Quote
Multigrades use detergent addatives that are homophobic so after they totally envelope the impurity paticale they prevent any further agglomeration so the now quite big envelope of addatives with crud in the middle can not pass through the filter medium
Monograde's detergent addatives are homephillic so after they envelope the crud they join together at infinitum to form a big lump of crud which sinks to the bottom of the oil tank to form a sludge.

The above is interesting. After rebuilding my A10 I decided to use single grade SAE40 in my engine together with a return line oil filter thinking belt and braces must be a good idea. Was this a mistake; should I change to multigrade?
Title: Re: Oil tank filter
Post by: chaterlea25 on 04.07. 2014 21:04
HI Greybeard and All,
Quote
The above is interesting. After rebuilding my A10 I decided to use single grade SAE40 in my engine together with a return line oil filter thinking belt and braces must be a good idea. Was this a mistake; should I change to multigrade?

I have been running the same setup for 12+ years  and have built several customer bikes with tha same setup and ALL IS FINE  *grins* *grins*

HTH
John
Title: Re: Oil tank filter
Post by: Derby Rob on 04.07. 2014 21:10
hi,
    i keep reading about these return line oil filters.So where would i get one that looks ok on these old bikes?
Title: Re: Oil tank filter
Post by: Greybeard on 04.07. 2014 21:55
hi,
    i keep reading about these return line oil filters.So where would i get one that looks ok on these old bikes?

 
I bought a Norton 850 oil filter head and filter from Ebay intending to fit it in the toolbox of my plunger frame GF as others have done. However, the assembly was too wide to fit in the toolbox so I have mounted the filter on the rear mudguard behind the gearbox using nylock nuts.
Both parts are dull black so fairly inconspicious.
When mounted the filter head union stubs point towards the chain.
I've used Goodyear 8mm/5/16" ID reinforced rubber pipe to do the plumbing.
The oil feed pipe from oil tank to pump union pipes is as original.
The return from the pump is carried over the top of the gearbox, down between the vertical frame tube and the gearbox  then gently curves around to meet the filter inlet stub.
The filter outlet pipe is routed tightly underneath the gearbox and then up behind the pump union assembly so it appears adjacent to the original metal pipes. It lines up nicely with the rocker feed banjo and oil tank connector.
Finished off with proper hose clamps it looks neat and not too obtrusive.

Here is a link to some photos of the set up.

http://tinyurl.com/cqbbnj7

Neil Ives
Title: Re: Oil tank filter
Post by: Derby Rob on 04.07. 2014 23:12
thanks Graybeard
Title: Re: Oil tank filter
Post by: charles whitfield on 04.07. 2014 23:34
Well,  it stopped this! but beyond that, forget it
Fit as the team say
Cheers
Charles
 

OK just a correction here....the tank "filter" should be called a strainer as it is definitely not a filter although called that, it is a misnomer. As said here earlier "it will allow minute (and not so minute) solids of various description to pass through and continue to wear out items in the engine. Why have the military of many countries insisted on a good quality filter which is either of the felt type (M20) or paper (B40) to be fitted in the return line of their machines? Because the strainer in the tank does just about bugger all in the way of stopping foreign bodies from circulating in the oil. The British Army B40 had a British Filters paper element fitted in the return line of all their bikes yet BSA still didn't fit one as standard on any civilian bikes. Cost saving I imagine. I made sure I fitted one to the Ceefer before even starting it after the rebuild. Now I'll get off my soap box. Cheers. Gerry
Title: Re: Oil tank filter
Post by: Greybeard on 05.07. 2014 12:17
thanks Graybeard

Search this forum for other oil filter options.
Title: Re: Oil tank filter
Post by: Greybeard on 05.07. 2014 12:18
Well,  it stopped this! but beyond that, forget it
Fit as the team say
Cheers
Charles

What is that object Charles?
Title: Re: Oil tank filter
Post by: Greybeard on 05.07. 2014 12:30
Another oil filter option:
http://www.a7a10.net/forum/index.php?topic=351.msg1610#msg1610
Title: Re: Oil tank filter
Post by: bsa-bill on 05.07. 2014 12:40
just a guess

1. the seal out of the top of a can of something with authentic screwdriver puncture hole (like thinners maybe)
 
Title: Re: Oil tank filter
Post by: Triton Thrasher on 05.07. 2014 16:04
Quote
Yes they really are clever .
Multigrades use detergent addatives that are homophobic so after they totally envelope the impurity paticale they prevent any further agglomeration so the now quite big envelope of addatives with crud in the middle can not pass through the filter medium

Monograde's detergent addatives are homephillic so after they envelope the crud they join together at infinitum to form a big lump of crud which sinks to the bottom of the oil tank to form a sludge.

That's literally incredibly educational.

Would washing soda work just as well?
Title: Re: Oil tank filter
Post by: BSA_54A10 on 07.07. 2014 09:47
I was once shown the molecular formula for some of these by Gerry Bristow who uses to work for BP then Duckhams, Brilliant bloke, died way too young.
Very simple when you see how it works but how the molecules stay together is beyound me.
Some had open bond at one or both ends while the others had them at one end & in the middle so when aligned will bond together.