The BSA A7-A10 Forum

Technical => A7 & A10 Engine => Topic started by: Gerry on 13.09. 2014 21:47

Title: Cam followers
Post by: Gerry on 13.09. 2014 21:47
Hi John, How do I check that the pressure relief valve is opening at the correct pressure? The cam trough is full of oil and the cams are ok thank goodness. Check out the pics' of the followers...ugh!! Cheers, Gerry


adm edit: topic split and given descriptive title
Title: Re: Cam followers
Post by: bsa-bill on 13.09. 2014 22:02
WOW
not so much followed as followed through
Title: Re: Cam followers
Post by: trevinoz on 13.09. 2014 22:05
That is the worst set that I have ever seen, Gerry!
Maybe get them built up with Stellite and ground to correct radius?

Trev.
Title: Re: Cam followers
Post by: chaterlea25 on 13.09. 2014 22:31
Hi Gerry,
Luckily I have access to a deadweight tester, I made up a fitting to screw the first few threads into
Oil flows out the holes half way along when the ball or piston opens the port (depending on type)

I would suggest you ask your friend who builds those shiney A's or find a company that does instrument calibration, You will need the adaptor piece made up for them though

John
Title: Re: Cam followers
Post by: Gerry on 14.09. 2014 09:42
Hi Bill, I think the wording should be throw as in chuck!!
Title: Re: Cam followers
Post by: wardleybob on 14.09. 2014 15:06
Hi Gerry why don't you get your cams & followers stelite wellded . Job done for good rob
Title: Re: Cam followers
Post by: Gerry on 15.09. 2014 00:19
Hi Fellas, Trev, do you know of a company that does a good job of stelite welding. Years and years ago when I still worked (that word makes me feel absolutely sick!!) we used to get large seal rings re stelited when it first appeared on the market here in Oz and the company that did it used to leave large cracks in the stelite through shrinkage but as they progressed and their expertise improved the cracks disappeared so any one know of a reputable company that can do it? OK just got off the phone and Green Welding here in Adelaide can do it and Rick Corbett Engineering can do the profiling but will cost more than getting a set of hardened and ground ones. The way it is going to be used really won't cause a great deal of wear in my time so the extra cost isn't really worth the bother. Cheers. Gerry
Title: Re: Cam followers
Post by: kiwipom on 15.09. 2014 05:02
hi guys, what is the cost of repairing rather than getting some new/used ones,cheers
Title: Re: Cam followers
Post by: Gerry on 15.09. 2014 05:41
Hi Kiwipom, The sum I was quoted roughly over the phone was around $40-$80 for the stellite welding, depending how much needed to be put on and between $80-$140 for the re profiling or grinding, again depending how much grinding was required. Of course the followers would have to be the same length as the original size (1.750" I believe) and the radius is 1.250" according to my measurement on the fairly good follower. So minimum cost would be around $120 and the max about $220. This weould be a far better way to go but how would the cam stand up to contacting stellite??? New ones are just about unobtainable as are good secondhand ones. Cheers. Gerry
Title: Re: Cam followers
Post by: Brian on 15.09. 2014 07:23
British Only Austria have new sets for 105 Euro which is about $150 our money.

http://www.vintage-motorcycle.com/index.php?language=en&site=4&pid=201&id=5461&suchtext=BSA cam&limit=20

Gerry are you going to the Balhannah swap ? I'll be there with some stuff for sale and I have a few used sets of these, I have one set that is useable, not perfect but ok.
Title: Re: Cam followers
Post by: Gerry on 15.09. 2014 12:28
Hi Brian, Thanks for the offer mate it is really appreciated but guess what....I got a reconditioned set from the chap that gets them done for him. He gave them to me as I make up quite a few nuts and bolts that he can no longer get hold of. I took a dozen magdyno sprocket/gear securing nuts I had made for him this morning and he gave me the followers and took mine in exchange. I still have to make some acorn blind nuts for him in 1/4" BSF which I believe are for the rocker inspection caps on the A65. He did my K2F mag' for me and I have to renovate his old Hercus lathe in need of tender loving care in exchange for the mag' overhaul. How good is he? What I need to do now is find some more hexagon bars for making nuts and bolts in Imperial sizes. Thanks again fella and I'll see you at Balhannah if I can make it. Cheers. Gerry Will send you a private message.
Title: Re: Cam followers
Post by: RichardL on 15.09. 2014 14:20
Balhannah looks like fun and a good swap opportunity. Wish I could go, but I don't think I'll be able to make it this year.    *smile* ;)

Richard L.
Title: Re: Cam followers
Post by: muskrat on 15.09. 2014 21:44
Good to see the old barter system working for you Gerry, no tax, no GST(vat), everyone wins.
I'm wondering if you got a new cam nitride'ed how it would go against the stellite followers.
Cheers
Title: Re: Cam followers
Post by: trevinoz on 15.09. 2014 22:13
Gerry,
                You have done well with the followers.
Try Atlas Steels for the Imperial hex bar. I use the free machining steeTrev.
Title: Re: Cam followers
Post by: Gerry on 16.09. 2014 01:33
Hi Richard, Would love for you to come to one of our swap meets here in Oz but wouldn't be on the scale of yours in the States though! Hi Muskrat, Yeah thanks mate, I would be waiting for the bank balance to look a bit more healthy otherwise eh? I'm not sure what kind of hardening is used on the followers he gave me but I recon' the stellite would outlast nitriding at a guess though. Hi Trev, thanks for the tip on Atlas Steel, I'll give them a go and see what they have available. Cheers fellas and thanks again. Gerry


adm edit: C15 content (offtopic) moved to new post in bikes, pictures & members.
Title: Re: Cam followers
Post by: WozzA on 16.09. 2014 05:33
PM re followers sent Brian...   *computer*
Title: Re: Cam followers
Post by: chaterlea25 on 16.09. 2014 19:44
HI All,
Quote
That is the worst set that I have ever seen, Gerry!

Trev, I think this set were worse  *eek* *eek*
The bores and pistons were wrecked from the shrapnel from the cam and followers

Yet another example of a dealer selling ""Shiney Shite""

John
Title: Re: Cam followers
Post by: muskrat on 16.09. 2014 22:27
Gawd, it's a wonder the tappets didn't fall off the valve stems. Never seen'em that bad.
Cheers
Title: Re: Cam followers
Post by: Gerry on 08.10. 2014 08:28
OK guys, The ongoing saga of the Gold Flash......took the primary cover off and fitted a degree plate on the crankshaft. Checked the inlet opening point and I got sixty three degrees!!! So off comes the timing outer and inner covers and checked the timing marks and all align as I set them originally...WTF is going on here. According to an experienced friend (who gave me the recon' followers) the timing should be Inlet opens at 42 degrees BTDC and closes at 62 degrees after BDC. Exhaust opens at 65 degrees before BDC and closes at 25 degrees after TDC My Haines Workshop Manual says 30 degrees, 70 degrees, 65 degrees and 25 degrees respectively. Now unless my camshaft pinion is either marked wrong or has sheared the key I have got a real problem here. HELP!! I shall have to remove the camshaft pinion to check the key and once I have got the correct timing, set the crank at the right position before TDC and with the camshaft pinion off turn the camshaft until it stops against the inlet follower. The camshaft is a **-356 as should be fitted to the Flash. Am I wrong here??? Cheers, Gerry
Title: Re: Cam followers
Post by: Brian on 08.10. 2014 08:59
Gerry do you know the history of your motor.

Its possible the idler pinion (the one that drives the generater) is the wrong one. The one out of the earlier "longstroke" engine is identical but the markings are different. If memory serves me the dash is four teeth different.

Somewhere on the forum I put up a thread covering this, I think its somewhere amongst the longstroke stuff, I'll have another go at finding it.

Found it.

http://www.a7a10.net/forum/index.php?topic=7342.msg51278#msg51278
Title: Re: Cam followers
Post by: duTch on 08.10. 2014 09:40

 Hey Gerry, I don't have much to refer to having killed all my computers, waiting on a newy, but  I think the 356 cam is road rocket,  stock GF cam may be a 355....? Not  that it should matter,
 I have a 357 in the plunger motor using the original gears, and it runs OK , so maybe Brian has a valid point. ....?
Title: Re: Cam followers
Post by: Resto-Rob on 08.10. 2014 20:36
My plunger was originally set up for Sidecar work and had a 354 cam.  I re-geared it and fit a 356 cam.  Runs beautifully :)  didnt want to go much higher as a have a thin flange barrel.
Title: Re: Cam followers
Post by: duTch on 08.10. 2014 22:19
 I just guessed that 355 number, don't even know what happened to the original cam...!

  Gerry, for now at least, why not just disregard the marks and set it up where it works.
  Pick a lobe and crank setting, and add the idler (marks only line up every something like 97 revs anyway ! I think that's the figure someone sprouted while ago)

    You'd only need to do a couple of laps of the crank to confirm your settings.....?
  Get it running and worry about the other stuff later...?

edit;- just read your earlier post again, and it told me what I just told you. . *doh* *doh*
Title: Re: Cam followers
Post by: trevinoz on 08.10. 2014 23:53
The "standard" cam is 334.
As Brian says, the long stroke idler gear is different BUT so is the crank pinion AND the cam gear. They will all fit!
Good luck, Gerry.

Trev.
Title: Re: Cam followers
Post by: KeithJ on 23.11. 2014 19:31
Just caught up with this thread.  I had a set of followers laser welded with a comparably hard rod.  The advantages are lasers don't use so much heat.  A friend re-ground them for me.  Not yet fitted them so will be interested to see how they perform.  Not a cheap option but better than getting some doubtful quality spares.  Has anyone else tried laser welding?
ATB
Keith
Title: Re: Cam followers
Post by: wilko on 23.11. 2014 20:54
I suggest that radically worn followers might be caused by much to high a poundage with valve springs or coil binding.
Title: Re: Cam followers
Post by: KeithJ on 23.11. 2014 21:28
Are there known issues with the quality/length of the valve springs which are available to cause this or is it down to heads/rocker boxes  being machined etc?
Keith
Title: Re: Cam followers
Post by: Gerry on 24.11. 2014 00:06
Hi all, Love the idea of laser welding/hard facing followers. Anyway.....took the Flash for a ride day before yesterday, nice day, not too hot. Did about 7~8 K's and came to a corner and she cut out completely and would not restart!!! Had to trailer it home as there was no spark at either plug. Too stuffed to do anything more than wheel it into the shed and have a cuppa. Yesterday took off both pickups and cleaned the slip-ring of the mag with a soft rag and thinners. Bit of dirt but not appreciably much. Both plugs out replaced the pickups and kicked it over and got a spark both sides. The chap that overhauled the mag' removed the original capacitor in the armature and fitted one of those little green ones under the points. Anyone had any experience with these? I'm wondering if I have a duff one that breaks down when hot!! Before the run it would start first or second kick, now it takes quite a few more kicks to get it going and sometimes I have to open the throttle wide to start it as if its flooded. At least it runs a bloody site better than it did with the Long Stroke A7 valve timing!!! Cheers. Gerry
Title: Re: Cam followers
Post by: Rocket Racer on 24.11. 2014 02:53
http://www.penriteoil.co.nz/tech_pdfs_new/Jan2014/Product_Catalogue_VV&C.pdf (http://www.penriteoil.co.nz/tech_pdfs_new/Jan2014/Product_Catalogue_VV&C.pdf)
I was at a local swap meet in the weekend and talking to a mate who was querying what oil he should run in his star twin. There was a penrite stand that had 40 monograde "classic medium engine oil" with high zinc content. They also had a 30 grade light .
Our poor old cam followers cop high spring loads and are badly prone to scuffing so many modern oils are not really suitable. I believe this is also an issue for the old american hot rod cars than had similar cam follower design, so specialist oils that help our followers last a bit longer are at least readily available.

Title: Re: Cam followers
Post by: KeithJ on 24.11. 2014 07:41
Have hard good reports on http://www.team-zx1.com products.  It is not an "additive" more a surface treatment.  Will be putting it in my A10 when rebuilt.
ATB
Keith
Title: Re: Cam followers
Post by: muskrat on 24.11. 2014 11:56
Keith, not for the first two oil changes. Everything needs to bed in. Use a high zinc oil.
Cheers.

This won't turn into another oil thread WILL it *ex*
Title: Re: Cam followers
Post by: Rgs-Bill on 24.11. 2014 18:49
All of us old  and young "BRIT BIKERS" need to be cautious on what we add to our oils, because the wrong proportions can destroy the factory made benefits of the base structure of the oil.

      Not an oil thread just a caution ! ! ! !
Title: Re: Cam followers
Post by: Gerry on 27.11. 2014 02:01
Me again Guys!!! Took the beast out again yesterday and visited my son about 5 k's and up quite a steep hill. Didn't miss a beat. Had a cuppa with him and when returning to the bike wouldn't start again as before but between him and I kicking the bejasus out of it, it eventually started and got me home. Still haven't checked out all the tests on the mag as yet as I did the same thing as last time and just parked it and got me feet up!! Tried starting it again this morning and no go. I have a feeling in me water it might be soft pick up brushes coating the slip ring!!.  Cheers. Gerry
Title: Re: Cam followers
Post by: bsa-bill on 27.11. 2014 08:33
sounds oh so familiar Gerry, I tried everything with the maggie with much the same result as you with one exception that came a little too late that is to stick another fibre washer under the safety pins (Beezermac I think).
This I must try as I got the same sort of fault on two Magneto's both of which run fine on a lower compression bike  *eek*
Title: Re: Cam followers
Post by: Gerry on 27.11. 2014 11:12
Hi Bill, Do you mean the safety pointy end screws that go into the housing and cause the slip ring to break when you take the armature out without removing them?!!! Been there, done that... Funny thing is I managed to get it running today first kick with throttle closed on two occasions and I haven't touched a thing. Engine cold. I wonder if its a mixture problem when hot as if it starts at all it is always with the throttle wide open. Cheers. Gerry
Title: Re: Cam followers
Post by: KeithJ on 27.11. 2014 11:47
Keith, not for the first two oil changes. Everything needs to bed in. Use a high zinc oil.
Cheers.

This won't turn into another oil thread WILL it *ex*
Will get some miles on it first and then add it.  Was not too sure why so sensitive about oil threads but having looked at various sites, now understand.  How about "the Glory that once was Greece"?
Title: Re: Cam followers
Post by: bsa-bill on 27.11. 2014 12:18
Quote
Hi Bill, Do you mean the safety pointy end screws that go into the housing and cause the slip ring to break when you take the armature out without removing them?!!!

That's them
So another theory bites the dust
Title: Re: Cam followers
Post by: duTch on 27.11. 2014 12:43

  Hey Gerry, I have a similar thing if I'm out on errands and forget to turn off the fuel,even for a short visit- figure it's mixture or float level, but if I turn fuel off all is kinda ok, if not- just needs a kick or two with quarter/ half or so of throttle.....have learned to live with it for now
Title: Re: Cam followers
Post by: Gerry on 27.11. 2014 22:31

  Hey Gerry, I have a similar thing if I'm out on errands and forget to turn off the fuel,even for a short visit- figure it's mixture or float level, but if I turn fuel off all is kinda ok, if not- just needs a kick or two with quarter/ half or so of throttle.....have learned to live with it for now
Hi Dutch, It don't matter whether I leave the petcocks on or off, still the same result. To me it sounds like the float level might be too high as it obviously needs more fuel at a cold start eh? My wife tells me "Someone Up There" doesn't want an old coot like me out there on two wheels pretending I'm a bloody 16 year old but I'm not listening, ain't it great when your hearing is buggered along with most other things!!! The lack of firing on the left cylinder is worse at cold start but improves as she warms up, still there occasionally at idle, well mostly, but better when hot. Cheers.  Gerry
Title: Re: Cam followers
Post by: wilko on 27.11. 2014 23:28
A closed throttle will create much more suction at kick over speeds. It's my usual starting method with most of my bikes in the past.
Title: Re: Cam followers
Post by: Gerry on 28.11. 2014 04:11
A closed throttle will create much more suction at kick over speeds. It's my usual starting method with most of my bikes in the past.
Hi Wilco, Yeah thats what makes me think maybe mixture too rich at hot star with throttle closed. Cheers. Gerry