The BSA A7-A10 Forum

Technical => A7 & A10 Engine => Topic started by: a10sausage on 25.02. 2009 17:48

Title: no return from engine to oil tank
Post by: a10sausage on 25.02. 2009 17:48
hi folks.....i recently had a wet sumping problem on the flash as you may have read on the smokes our street out topic....i have fitted an inline oil filter on the return side...phew ..(took me about 4 hours....don,t laugh)  and started her up...i loosened the filter off to check for a return on the oil....aarrrgghh....non to be seen....so took the bike out for a quick spin...still no oil going back to the tank...i suspect this may have been the problem all along....crankcases filling with oil and no return.....i have just removed the sump plate for the first time...the metal filter is in line with the bottom of the  crankcases is this right...i thought it went into the metal sump plate cavity....i prodded the ball bearing...that moves ok....just for info the bike has a high flow oil pump that was bought around 12 months ago and cost around 200 quid....so that should be ok....any info would be great *sad2*
Title: Re: no return from engine to oil tank
Post by: RichardL on 25.02. 2009 18:03
Original sump-plate filters extended upward into the crankcase with the pick-up tube a close fit through the lined hole in the mesh. The new replacements come in two forms, as I have seen. One type is basically flush with the bottom of the crakcase and the pickup tube pushes down against the lined hole, distorting and potentially (as in my case) dislodging the mesh. The other type has the mesh just slightly depressed toward the sump plate so that the pickup tube does not distort it. This is the type I just bought from SRM and am awaiting to fit it. Both get fit between two sump-plate gaskets.

Richard L.
Title: Re: no return from engine to oil tank
Post by: a10sausage on 25.02. 2009 21:40
hi folks...i have just removed the front cap of the oil presure relief valve and cracked the engine up and no oil is coming out of the hole....groan....further investigation needed
Title: Re: no return from engine to oil tank
Post by: mike667 on 26.02. 2009 00:06
hi folks...i have just removed the front cap of the oil presure relief valve and cracked the engine up and no oil is coming out of the hole....groan....further investigation needed

have you primed the valve  -some require oil in them - before they will work
Title: Re: no return from engine to oil tank
Post by: RichardL on 26.02. 2009 03:20
I had a similar problem last year after the completion of my engine rebuild. Not "no" oil, but not enough moving. It turned out to be a little ball of dirt (or something) that got stuck in the input end of the supply fitting, just after the supply pipe and just before entering the engine. Verify clear supply (and return) pipe and clear fittings. I would say you could do this by blowing compressed air from the bottom of the pipes back to the oil tank. The only problem with that is that you might clear the problem without proof of the final diagnosis. For more difinitive diagnosis, you would remove the pipes and blow through them quite gently while checking for flow. You can remove the fittings to check them or try a pipe cleaner gently through them. While this might not reveal or cure your actual problem, it is one of the things that must be verified.

Richard L.
Title: Re: no return from engine to oil tank
Post by: Brian on 26.02. 2009 04:42
Hi there sausage, need to clear up a couple if things. In your other topic you say you drained the sump and there was 3/4 pint of oil in it. Was it returning oil to the tank then ? If you had no return to the tank when the sump had oil in it and you have no supply now then that would indicate your pump isnt turning. If this is the case take the timing cover off and kick the bike over and check the pump worm is being turned by the worm gear on the crank. If it is then take the pump off and check the gasket is correct, not blocking the oil holes behind the pump.

Brian.
Title: Re: no return from engine to oil tank
Post by: bsa-bill on 26.02. 2009 10:58
HI a10sausage
Just a small point but you do not say how hard you ran the engine, the valve is after all a pressure release valve and opens I believe at 60 psi, I don't know at what point an A10 pump will provide over 60 psi but I would guess it would take a good few revs maybe someone on the forum knows.

All the best - Bill
Title: Re: no return from engine to oil tank
Post by: A10Boy on 26.02. 2009 13:12
Are you saying that AFTER you took it for a spin there was oil in the sump, if so how much oil and how far did you ride?

Did you drain the sump before starting her up, and did you fit an in-line one way valve like you were considering, if so are you sure its the correct way around?

I'm sure you are aware that even a few seconds without oil will wreck the motor, so my guess is that if you've ridden it, oil must be being pumped on the supply side - is the oil level in the tank dropping slowly when you run it?
Title: Re: no return from engine to oil tank
Post by: a10sausage on 26.02. 2009 16:47
ok folks ...i really appreciate all your help...heres the full story...yesterday i decided to add an inline oil filter....you all are probably aware of the 2cv type that you can mount in the tool box....the is how this problem started....i used the old return line as my new supply line as it is an original sheilded version...my original supply line was a rubber one so i used the connectors for this to install the filter kit on the engine to oil box......i started the engine after installing the kit but no oil returned to the oil box......so this what i have done today....i have dropped the sump cover again and cleaned the ball valve or anti syphon...i also removed the wire filter and cleaned it....when i dropped the sump approx 100ml of oil dropped out into my jug....i then removed the timing case cover and inspected the oil pump...this rotates fine on the worm drive...i slackened the nuts that hold the oil pump on and clean new oil flowed through from my oil tank to the pump...i retightened the bolts and started her up....pump runs ok....i then removed the oil return line at the engine and started her up...only a few small drips came out of the orafice....although i did find some oil in the return line when i looked....clean oil so it must have passed through the engine....i rode the bike for about two miles yesterday...i would have thought that this would be enough to fill the return line and filter....i also removed the oil pressure valve again and a slight trickle runs down the crank case when the engine is running... *sad2* *ex*
Title: Re: no return from engine to oil tank
Post by: a10sausage on 26.02. 2009 16:52
hi brian......i cant be certain if oil was returning to the tank when it was wet sumping....has any body else ever started there a10 with the return line off at the engine....dose oil squirt out...or just the odd drip like mine...or maybe the engine needs to be run for a long while after both oil lines have been off
Title: Re: no return from engine to oil tank
Post by: a10sausage on 26.02. 2009 16:53
hi mike 667....when you say prime the valve.....can i have a bit more info....cheers......the sausage....update...just got some info from the web http://www.britishcycle.com/Manuals/SRM_oil_pump_fitting_inst.htm (http://www.britishcycle.com/Manuals/SRM_oil_pump_fitting_inst.htm) i am begining to wonder if because i did not prime the pump...i had both oil lines off you see...it may be that it took a while for the oil to get round....saying that there is oil now at the pump and flow is very slow...just a slight dribble now and again...cheers
Title: Re: no return from engine to oil tank
Post by: A10Boy on 26.02. 2009 20:01
Did you run the engine with the PRV removed?

Assuming you haven't done something basic like switching the lines by mistake, which you've obviously checked, then the oil should return as you've done nothing else to it. I would guess its just an airlock.

I would try carefully pressurising the oil tank thu the filler hole with the motor running, if you've got an old cap drill a hole in it and [carefully] stick the airline in there. you will need to loosen the line to the tank from the new filter first [and close off the tank return pipe spigot] and see if oil then returns.

The main thing is make sure that oil is supplied if you are running the motor. If I can suggest you put the return from the filter into a jug and then watch the oil level in the tank and see it slowly dropping you should be ok
Title: Re: no return from engine to oil tank
Post by: a10sausage on 26.02. 2009 21:25
you read my mind a10 boy....i do need to pressurise the tank with air and get things flowing..i am a bit concerned that i have already rode it....but thats life and you live and learn...i ran the motor with spring and ball bearing out to see if oil flowed....just a slight trickle.....i did not get the oil lines switched or anything like that...so we are ok on that count....the engine still sounds ok...and no metal particles in the sump...if i ever do this again i will prime the pump....this time i thought a full box of oil would be enough to force the oil round to the pump....cheers
Title: Re: no return from engine to oil tank
Post by: Richard on 26.02. 2009 22:39
Hi A10sausage
I presume that the filter is fitted to the return line and not the feed?
is the filter connected the correct way round?
I fitted the same filter kit to my A10 and had removed all the pipes and the tank and flushed all the old oil out and washed the tank and hoses out with petrol,also the sump was drained and the gauze filter was cleaned I then refitted the tank and hoses and filled up with semi synthetic and all I did was to take the plugs out and kick the engine over until oil returned to the tank.
I doubt that it will be an air lock but I could be wrong!
reading all the posts it would be more logical to suspect  restriction or poor oil pump presuming that everything is connected the correct way round.
Anyway I hope you get it sorted soon
Richard
Title: Re: no return from engine to oil tank
Post by: snowbeard on 27.02. 2009 03:58
I have to qualify this that I am just getting into these bikes, so most of these fellows' advice should be followed before mine  ;)

I had a similar experience when I had the timing cover off for weeks on end, once it was all buttoned up it didn't return even after a few minutes of running.  I ended up priming it from the uptake tube with a 60mL syringe and a piece of rubber tubing. after that it returned fine.

I also wonder if you pre-filled your filter housing? maybe it is just taking that much oil to fill that before it returns?

be careful running it too long without return, as it's only the return diversion that oils the rockers, no?
Title: Re: no return from engine to oil tank
Post by: a10sausage on 27.02. 2009 09:47
off to my garage for a mega fettle....its my day off work....i did not prime the filter as i thought it would be nice to see the oil return to it.....the filter is fitted the correct way round......why is nothing easy and straight forward on my a10....every job i have done has been a challenge.....its all a learning curve....i will report back later today.....the sausage
Title: Re: no return from engine to oil tank
Post by: bsa-bill on 27.02. 2009 09:56
It took a while for oil to return to the tank when I fitted a filter on my A10, filter holds a fair bit oil -  percentagewise which can only be a good thing.

AS for things not being straight forward - tell me about it, I did the gearbox on my last Flash without a hitch, this one is not quite changing gear as I would like after rebuild so I had a look in yesterday, not sure why but now it changes fine until I put the inner cover on then it locks up solid, somethings moved I reckon so It needs to come off the bike and onto the bench - todays task.

All the best - Bill
Title: Re: no return from engine to oil tank
Post by: a10sausage on 27.02. 2009 19:15
hi bill...sounds like i am not the only one to get problems.....now here is the big question am i lucky or unlucky...you decide after reading this....had a  strip down today after still no flowing oil.....first port of call was to remove the oil pump...and it came out fairly easy to my surprise...now the test..it was dipped in oil and rotated....aaarrrggghhhh ! no oil was being pumped...this a 260 quid pump that had done less than a thousand miles...we stripped the pump down and the Feed gear, driver with spindle had broken..see pics..gutted...so if you have a wet sumping prob it might be your oil pump gone knackerd...and not returning oil to the tank...i estimate i might have done around 20 miles with no oil flow..or very limited since the pump broke...as thats when it started wet sumping...20 miles since... i would not have discovered the broken oil pump if i did not decide to fit an inline oil filter...i am going to the vintage bike rally soon and the big ends would have blown out for sure...i am still not certain if any damage has been done...i dont think i can fix the pump as i do not know who made it...the pump was fitted just before i bought the machine...i even phoned the shop who fitted the pump (reciept came with bike) and he could not remember the make...groan...so it looks like one of those srm high flow billet pumps will have to be bought...pricey but good....that unless anybody out there can recognise the pump in the pics!
Title: Re: no return from engine to oil tank
Post by: bsa-bill on 27.02. 2009 19:37
might not be as bad as you fear. if it was wet sumping then oil was getting into the crankcase, so how did it get there maybe one side of the pump was supplying enough, lets hope so.
I don't think you would get 20 miles without oil flow !!!

Never heard of pumps failing like that

All the best - Bill
Title: Re: no return from engine to oil tank
Post by: RichardL on 27.02. 2009 19:44
Sausage (I'm gussing that's not your real name),
Very glad to hear you've found the problem. Now for some nail biting regarding the internals after 20 miles on limited flow. Where you can, force in some oil, foe example, at the rockers. Thats the obvious place I can think of just now (I' in an airplane on the tarmac). I would recommend waiting until you hear from others about other ingenious oil injection methods. It would be a pity if you were just at the last point of residual oil endurance and, then, things went bad just after startup and before full flow. I hope this doesn't sound too gloomy, but if there are easy precautions to take, short of complete disassembly, that's what I would do.

I look forward to hearing about  succesful reassembly, a delightful stream of oil spraying from the top of the tube in the tank and your enjoyable riding.

Title: Re: no return from engine to oil tank
Post by: a10sausage on 27.02. 2009 21:06
great to hear from you manosound...i have just had one of my mates on the dog and bone...he could not believe the pump fractured inside.....now for the nail biting moments that await regarding the oil...i am going to remove the plugs and send oil down there and when the new pump is i will fully prime it from the oil tank feed....i will not start the motor until oil is returning at the return via cranking the engine with the kickstart...srm recommend flushing the oil tank out and making sure its spotless before i fill it with oil again....anybody any ideas whats the best way to do this...also has anybody else purchased an srm oil pump...the new billet blue type....cheers...andy
Title: Re: no return from engine to oil tank
Post by: Brian on 27.02. 2009 21:07
At least now you know what was wrong. Never trust after market parts.

Behind the oil pump is the supply gallery that goes to the timing side bearing and bigends, its the one with the spring loaded ball in it. I would get a oil can and pump some oil into that. When you have put it all back together and there is oil returning to the tank hold your finger over the outlet hole in the oil tank for about 30 seconds, this will force some oil to the rockers.

Hopefully not but if any damage has been done then its too late now so reassemble it all and hopefully it will be ok.

Just on the subject of anti syphon valves, I wont use them. You only need to start the bike once a month to empty the sump and if the valve fails it can cost you your engine. Not worth the risk I reckon. Some have taps that are electrically linked to the maggy, if you have to have something then that would be the way to go.

Good luck, Brian.
Title: Re: no return from engine to oil tank
Post by: Richard on 28.02. 2009 00:05
A10sausage
That looks like a standard pump A10 pump from the photos anyway at least you found the problem.As per my previous post I took my oil tank off the bike to wash it out it is not difficult to remove it and a more thorough job can be done. The filter should stop any particles reaching the tank. Cranking it over first with the plugs out may be tiring but at least when you get oil return to the tank you know that it is all working.
What bike rally are you off to ?
All the best
Richard
Title: Re: no return from engine to oil tank
Post by: a10sausage on 28.02. 2009 09:08
hi richard...its this one....all classic bike riders get free travel on the railway as well http://east-lancs-rly.co.uk/?p=classicbike&m=40 (http://east-lancs-rly.co.uk/?p=classicbike&m=40) ....regarding the pump being an original one...all i can say the owner before me paid a lot of money for it...so i hope not...the pump is inscribed a175 on the rear...heres more pics of the pump assembled...the sausage
Title: Re: no return from engine to oil tank
Post by: A10Boy on 28.02. 2009 13:24
Mr Sausage.
Now you've found the problem you are obviously concerned about engine damage. There are a few things worth noting.

Firstly oil was getting into the sump therefore it must have gone thru the engine, albeit in a limited flow.

secondly, given that oil was in the sump in some quantity, it would have been thrown all over the crank, big ends and bores by the rotation of the crankshaft. This would have provided some lubrication to the big ends and mains.

Thirdly, there is a very short duration between plain bearings "picking-up" and full on failure in no oil situations. Therefore I would have thought that no picking up has occurred, as if it had, the big ends would probably have already failed.

You can ignore valves rockers etc, as long as they are oiled a bit once a week they are ok.

Given all that I think your engine will be fine.

One thing occurred to me, did the pump have the little washer behind it ? if its not fitted it can bend the casing of the pump which in theory could cause it to bind up, that could cause the drive to break ??
Title: Re: no return from engine to oil tank
Post by: a10sausage on 28.02. 2009 14:59
a10boy thanks for your comments ...i agree with everything you say....although the last ride which was for 2 miles i had dropped the sump oil before while i was messing with the return valve....i still think the motor will be ok...there was no washer behind the pump....but this pump thats was on is rock solid unlike the original alloy versions....i wonder how many owners out there are still running the factory bsa pump with no problems it would be great to know....i am just polishing the timing case cover at the moment....may as well while its off......cheers...the sausage
Title: Re: no return from engine to oil tank
Post by: Richard on 28.02. 2009 16:21
A10sausage
just had a look at my spare original pump guess right it is an alloy one ---now i did not twig that so if yours is cast it must be an after market type.
However as per A10boy's post just check with your pump on a straight surface and you may find that if the casting has been copied from an original the top fixing face is set back slightly from the bottom two fixing faces hence the need for a fibre washer to stop it twisting.
a good check to do with the replacement as well.
I still run both mine with the original type I am not sure what benifit to a bog standard road going bike spending a vast amount of hard earnt on a fast flow pump would be?
I think that show is a bit to far for one day besides which I thought I may go to Red Marley hill climb on the 13 April at great Whitley
regards
Richard
Title: Re: no return from engine to oil tank
Post by: Richard on 28.02. 2009 16:23
Guess right should have been ---Guess what
Richard
Title: Re: no return from engine to oil tank
Post by: RichardL on 28.02. 2009 16:44
Sausage,

As I'd expected and hoped, others joinded in and contributed to the "what to do before running it again" question. A10boy's comments sound very promising, though, I am confused by one part. If one can wet-sump with the bike standing in the shed for a month (or more or less) how is it that oil in the sump is an indicator that it got there after routing through the engine? Maybe I'm being lazy by not going to my oil circuit drawing, but I'm not sure the answer would be obvious. Further comments, A10boy?


In an effort to acutally be helpful, I found the links that follow:

http://www.mca-aston.com/catalogue.asp (I believe this may be the actual manufacturer, based on the following link, in Swedish)

http://www.bsaoc.org/swe/bsa_bladet/bladet20073.pdf

http://www.morsbikesonline.com/product/Oil-pump/Oil-Pump-Cast-Iron-Body (a dealer showing an actual picture)

If it turns out that MCA (Aston) is the manufacturer, you might have hope of some compensation, since they appear to acutally exist.

Regards,

Richard L.


Title: Re: no return from engine to oil tank
Post by: RichardL on 28.02. 2009 16:48
At MCA-Aston, enter part number 67-1381 or 42-0155 on their catalog page.
Title: Re: no return from engine to oil tank
Post by: RichardL on 28.02. 2009 17:22
Not to be too obscessed, but there is one more company that could be the manufacturer:

http://www.evengineering.com/

They are also mentionined in the Swedish article, but I don't read Swedish, so, all I am doing is trying to get the gyst of what is written there.

Richard L.
Title: Re: no return from engine to oil tank
Post by: a10sausage on 28.02. 2009 18:16
superb richard....now if i can find out from mors or mca aston who made the pump....i can get the spare part for it...i rang dragonfly...the said send the faulty part and they would try and match it for me....but mors say its a uk company....and the pic on the mors sight is defo the pump....this is real detective work
Title: Re: no return from engine to oil tank
Post by: ronnierockets on 28.02. 2009 18:29
Sausage,
you could try Draganfly for an oil pump,they do an exchange service,
send them your old pump, and £96.38 pounds, and they send back to you an iron bodied reconditioned oil
pump.
I fitted one to my superrocket when i was rebuilding the bottom end, and its working well.
Good luck with your bike..Ronnierockets..
Title: Re: no return from engine to oil tank
Post by: ronnierockets on 28.02. 2009 18:35
OOPS, i see i'm a little too late with my imput..Ronnierockets..
Title: Re: no return from engine to oil tank
Post by: a10sausage on 28.02. 2009 19:09
thanks ronnierockets for your imput to the prob....i also thought of that but draganfly wanted an original pump not my aftermarket item....they might be able to match the broken part though !
Title: Re: no return from engine to oil tank
Post by: a10sausage on 28.02. 2009 19:40
just a quick one...a bit off topic...but thanks for you all helping me...have a good laugh http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vcsg-TImc9o (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vcsg-TImc9o)      the sausage
Title: Re: no return from engine to oil tank
Post by: olev on 01.03. 2009 10:42
I see there are a few different A65 oil pumps about.
http://pages.prodigy.net/dukie/_import/pages.prodigy.net/dukie/index3.html
Does anyone know if any of these will fit an A7 or A10??
cheers
Title: Re: no return from engine to oil tank
Post by: trevinoz on 01.03. 2009 20:44
Olev, even though the A65 pump runs in the opposite direction, it should fit with the A10 drive end fitted.
The early ones have the same size gearsets as the A10. Late ones had wider gears.
Probably the best would be a cast iron body, if you can find one. They seem to have appeared from late 1971 production. Rare as the proverbial rocking horse manure. I have seen two in a long association with BSAs.
  Trev.
Title: Re: no return from engine to oil tank
Post by: a10sausage on 03.03. 2009 21:00
trev or anybody out there.. do you know if i can drop a Feed gear, driver with spindle out of an old original pump into this broken cast iron one...ie are they the same internals....i have just bought an original pump that should be in full working order from ebay....i am just waiting for delivery...i might just install this and the fix my broken pump at my leisure
Title: Re: no return from engine to oil tank
Post by: a10sausage on 03.03. 2009 21:03
does this look familiar http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/BSA-A50-A65-Oil-Pump-NEW-Cast-Iron-NO-RESERVE_W0QQitemZ260371066147QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Motorcycle_Parts?hash=item260371066147&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1689|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318#ebayphotohosting (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/BSA-A50-A65-Oil-Pump-NEW-Cast-Iron-NO-RESERVE_W0QQitemZ260371066147QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Motorcycle_Parts?hash=item260371066147&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1689|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318#ebayphotohosting)
Title: Re: no return from engine to oil tank
Post by: a10sausage on 08.03. 2009 15:01
just to let you all know...i built a hybrid pump out if the two..an original bsa pump from ebay...which on inspection the top half was somewhat stiff... so i used my cast iron top....it works a treat....we have oil flowing again...motor sounds ok...full road test to follow....the sausage
Title: Re: no return from engine to oil tank
Post by: A10Boy on 09.03. 2009 16:09
Ok, so now is all happy in BSA land, do you have a return and do you still smoke the street out ??
Title: Re: no return from engine to oil tank
Post by: a10sausage on 09.03. 2009 17:04
hi a10 boy....i don,t smoke the street out anymore.....i have a great return on the oil....and i went for a twenty mile blast today with no probs...sorted...yippee
Title: Re: no return from engine to oil tank
Post by: A10Boy on 09.03. 2009 20:41
Good news, so no damage done to the engine, that was lucky.

Time for a ...

(http://midtownbuses.free.fr/wordpress/pint_beer.jpg)
Title: Re: no return from engine to oil tank
Post by: a10sausage on 10.03. 2009 15:52
a10 boy...maybe i should swing a bottle of champagne on the end of a rope into it...as it now comes out of dry dock and back into service...here is some pics