The BSA A7-A10 Forum

Technical => Lucas, Electrical, Ignition => Topic started by: derek taylor on 24.10. 2014 20:09

Title: battery
Post by: derek taylor on 24.10. 2014 20:09
after a new battery for my golden flash 12v any ideas good/bad ect ?
Title: Re: battery
Post by: muskrat on 24.10. 2014 20:34
See if you can find an AGM (type, not brand) absorbed glass mat, battery to fit. Hold a charge much longer and a lot harder to cook. They don't leak and can be used upside down, on their side. The one I use even has + & - poles on both sides of the battery.
Cheers
Title: Re: battery
Post by: bsa-bill on 24.10. 2014 21:00
I agree with Musky, I bought three of the Cyclon type (Burlen type)  two for the 12 volt RGF and the other for the 6 volt Flash, the thinking being I could mix and match if required.
Not the cheapest but I've had enough of cheap batteries that suddenly just die for the fun of it
Title: Re: battery
Post by: scotty on 24.10. 2014 21:16
Ditto musky and bill

I run 2 cyclons in parallel in a dummy case

Other than a trickle charge over winter they're maintenance free  ;)

S


Title: Re: battery
Post by: morris on 24.10. 2014 22:28
Have a look at Paul Goff's website. He lists both.
I am using the 5 AH westco AGM. Very good battery.
Title: Re: battery
Post by: derek taylor on 25.10. 2014 08:05
cheers all taken on board  *smile*
Title: Re: battery
Post by: a101960 on 25.10. 2014 14:50
Quote
I run 2 cyclons in parallel in a dummy case Other than a trickle charge over winter they're maintenance free
Cyclons are what I have had on my bike for the last 5 years. I do not even bother with a trickle charge. I just remove the fuse from the bike and leave the batteries in situ on the bike. Saves all the trouble of removing the seat, and having to fiddle about trying to line up all the bits and pieces of the battery carrier clamp when I want to ride the bike after the winter lay up. So far they have held their charge over winter. More or less a fit and forget item. What they will not like is to be fully discharged. That probably will be terminal. In fact Paul Goff does mention that fact on his website. This what Goffy actually says
Quote
These batteries are designed for long term use and can easily last 8/10 years, and they can be left for long periods without charging. The batteries are supplied charged, no further charging before use is required. These batteries should last many months without charging as long as they are fully charged when left. Use only an automatic Optimate type 'Maintenance charger' to charge Cyclons to prevent overcharging. Completely discharging by 'leaving the lights on' will invalidate the warranty.
So, there you have it. Buy and fit with complete confidence.
John
Title: Re: battery
Post by: Rgs-Bill on 25.10. 2014 21:42
Right on with the 2 Cyclon batteries, I am just wondering if anyone knows of 2 batteries in the US that will work as well ????  Most shippers will no longer except batteries for shipping, too corrosive or sumpin.  I read some where that you go to Wall Mart and buy the KIDDEE CAR 6 volt battery right off of the shelf, they are supposed to be bullet proof..  They are designed to hold their charge for a long time, so kids can ride them around all day long, with no charging capabilities, they must be tough !!
    Anyone out there know where I can get a complete Rocket Gold Star battery tray, all the straps, all of the bolts, including the 3 or 4 mounting ones (all in the correct threads)  I have nothing except the mounting location brackets that are part of the frame..  Would Draganfly or Lightning Spares have one complete ??
Title: Re: battery
Post by: scotty on 25.10. 2014 23:48
Bill

If you are in the Seattle area:

Batteries and Bulbs in Everett should carry the Cyclon AGM 6v or can get them in.

They may even have an outlet closer to wherever you are

HTH

Scotty
Title: Re: battery
Post by: terryg on 26.10. 2014 06:58
At the Kempton autojumble yesterday George Prew had a remanufactured battery tray in his stock. I wasn't looking for the other parts but it's worth trying him
There are probably other suppliers but I just happened to notice that.
Title: Re: battery
Post by: sckemp on 26.10. 2014 08:42
Another vote for AGM batteries. I have one on my Honda. When I was commuting year round it never failed to crank the bike over quickly even when it was really cold. Now I don't use that bike much it can be 6 months between starts. The battery just sits there ready for action and when I press the starter button, it always does the business. No charging, no care, no fuss.

Needless to say, I will be getting an AGM battery for my 6V A10 (probably from Paul Goff).
Title: Re: battery
Post by: warmshed on 26.10. 2014 09:47
MOTOBATT do AGM batteries at a good price,(ebay) just need to sort out the size that will fit. Their web site gives all the sizes. http://www.motobatt.com/index.php?route=product/category&path=59  If not using a replica case you can always give them a quick spray with black paint. Hawker do their Odyssey AGM range, good but they are expensive.
Title: Re: battery
Post by: muskrat on 26.10. 2014 12:37
That's the name I've been trying to remember. Motobatt. Started the fire breathing CB1100 today, 1st time in 4 months, 2nd hit of the button. The 1st hit was "you want me to do what!!!", 2nd was "Oh, OK".
Cheers
Title: Re: battery
Post by: chaterlea25 on 26.10. 2014 13:20
Hi All,
Quote
Would Draganfly or Lightning Spares have one complete ??

Lightning spares are very knowledgeable and great quality SS items  *smile* *smile* *smile*

John
Title: Re: battery
Post by: Rgs-Bill on 26.10. 2014 19:16
Mostly for John > AKA  a101960 :
   When you pull the fuse for the winter time shutdown, (how long a time are we talking about)  do you have to flash the field when  the fuse is re-Installed, so the regulator and the Dyno are  on the same page, or polarity as it were ??  My battery is disconnected and brought in the much warmer house during my 6 months of winter, and put on a half amp mini charger as that is needed.  The battery is a single 6N63B1, which is a 6 amp hour small battery made by Grand Sport which is now 7 years old, and still working, but is starting to draw down from full charge faster than normal, so it is time.  I would not even need a battery except my RB-108 crapped out on me I and replaced it with a DVR-2 from Mike Hutchings at Dynamore Regulators.  Pretty sure you can not run without a battery when using his solid state regulator ??  If anyone knows different that would be helpful. I Have a  rebuilt  K2F maggy. which is a one kick starter, even with the plugs gapped at .035, that is if I do not forget and screw up the cold starting procedure.

      BILL
Title: Re: battery
Post by: a101960 on 27.10. 2014 10:35
Quote
When you pull the fuse for the winter time shutdown, (how long a time are we talking about)  do you have to flash the field when  the fuse is re-Installed, so the regulator and the Dyno are  on the same page, or polarity as it were ??
Bill, The time span is around 5 months (October - April) as a rule. The lay up time is however weather dependent. If for example the weather in October is still mild and dry, then I continue to ride. This year for example I did not lay up the bike until this weekend.  March can be pleasant and benign or it can be cold, windy, and wet. The prevailing weather conditions will determine exactly  when I start riding again.  Normally however, by the end of March to the begining of April the weather should be OK. One caveat: I will not use the bike if there is any salt on the roads. As for the dynamo polarity, most times there is no problem. It only takes a minute to give it a quick flash anyway. To be specific, and for the sake of clarity the electrical system on my bike is 12v -ve earth. I use a DVR2 regulator driven by a belt drive, and the batteries are two 6v cyclons in series fitted inside a dummy battery case. One further comment about laying up for the winter months. Going slightly off topic, I do two other things. I coat all the bright parts with with ACF50 to protect against damp, and I always fill the petrol tank tank right up to the brim, and make sure that the carb has no residual petrol in it.
John
Title: Re: battery
Post by: warmshed on 27.10. 2014 11:04
The dynamo should not need repolarizing. I believe you are correct you need a battery when using the dvr 2.
Title: Re: battery
Post by: Rgs-Bill on 31.10. 2014 18:22
Hi again, was just wondering if any of you have used the Wall Mart  6 volt kiddee car battery. It is supposed to fit the battery bracket with a slight (bending) modification, and be bullet proof for discharging, as it runs a kids electric car around the yard all day without a re-charging system.  You have to plug IT into a wall outlet at night. 

Any of you tried one ???

                 THANKS MUCH BILL
Title: Re: battery
Post by: warmshed on 31.10. 2014 19:15
Do you know what type of battery it is? If its lead acid its worth a try but if its Nicad or NiMh then our charging system will probably kill it.
Title: Re: battery
Post by: Rgs-Bill on 31.10. 2014 19:53
You know, I do not know what kind the battery is, I just assumed it was a lead acid type.. I suppose I had better check into that by calling them.  I think there was a posting on the forum about it, but it could have been the US forum ( BRIT BIKE FORUM ).  I will look into that also.  Thanks
        BILL
Title: Re: battery
Post by: Butch (cb) on 03.11. 2014 14:31
I just have the cheapest 6v lead acid cell I could find roughly strapped down under the seat. Never bother with charging it.  Sometimes it becomes feeble enough that the LED bulbs won't light, but they're OK once I have the motor running. Did have to do a dynamo reflash early on some few years back.

With no requirement for MOT or road tax I don't really lay it up these days. If a dry winter day came up then maybe it would come out. There's no way it goes on salt though, wet or dry.
Title: Re: battery
Post by: derek taylor on 19.11. 2014 18:42
right then just got round to taking the old battery off. it was only half full so have topped it up with distilled water, has now been on charge all day now, but the cell next to the + is not bubbling the rest are doing great..... is it knackerd ?
Title: Re: battery
Post by: Beezageezauk on 19.11. 2014 19:52
Derek,

I' m not an electrical guru but here's my suggestion.

Do you have a multimeter? If so, take the battery off charge and check the voltage reading. It should be about 13 volts. If it is, take another reading in the morning and if the reading is appreciably less, the battery is shot.

Beezageezauk.

Title: Re: battery
Post by: muskrat on 20.11. 2014 02:43
As above or load it with the headlight for a minute or two, wait a minute and check. Less than 12.5 it's on its way out.
Cheers
Title: Re: battery
Post by: Topdad on 20.11. 2014 14:01
In the words of Monty python ( its probably ) " a deceased battery "  *roll* Bob
Title: Re: battery
Post by: bikerbob on 20.11. 2014 14:44
AS regards the cyclon batteries I had one on my A7 when I bought it 6v but it would not hold a charge so I changed to a lead acid battery the reason was I was told that cyclon batteries do not like the old Lucas type voltage regulators and it is advisable to fit an electronic regulator.
Title: Re: battery
Post by: morris on 20.11. 2014 18:56
In the words of Monty python ( its probably ) " a deceased battery "  *roll* Bob
And now for something completely different... *smile*
Title: Re: battery
Post by: duTch on 12.12. 2014 23:53
 

I used to buy Yuasa battery for the Moto as supposedly robust, but didn't seem to get much life, just a year or so riding every day at least an hour round trip.  Tried an Odyssey, but considering the expense not impressed, so started using El-Cheapo's, with a reasonable degree of satisfaction, so used same supplier for the Beeza battery (6V/13ah)....was fine until a month or so ago...when it went dead FLAT..you'll never get one flatter (see picture.....), but will continue over at....link below/Page 2

 http://www.a7a10.net/forum/index.php?topic=7959.15 (http://www.a7a10.net/forum/index.php?topic=7959.15)

 21/2/15 realized I previously pasted the wrong link (/post reply!!) *bash*- now fixed (I think)


 
Title: Re: battery
Post by: Johnny J on 13.12. 2014 10:19
No matter which kind of Lead-Acid battery, the normal "wet" type, AGM or Gel, you should never let a 12V battery go under 10.5V or a 6V battery under 5.2V.
At lower Voltages than that the acid starts to eat the lead away and the battery very quickly is gone.

For our bikes, "wet" are no good, they are constructed for short bursts of high Amperage, like a starter motor and doesn't handle "deep discharges" well at all. They have much thinner lead plates than AGM and Gel which are much better suited for our bikes.
Title: Re: battery
Post by: duTch on 13.12. 2014 10:35

  I have a volt meter 'permanently' connected to monitor.
Quote
No matter which kind of Lead-Acid battery, the normal "wet" type, AGM or Gel, you should never let a 12V battery go under 10.5V or a 6V battery under 5.2V.
At lower Voltages than that the acid starts to eat the lead away and the battery very quickly is gone.

 Well yeah Johnny, I'm fairly well aware of that these days, but sometimes shit happens when we don't expect it....

Quote
For our bikes, "wet" are no good, they are constructed for short bursts of high Amperage, like a starter motor and doesn't handle "deep discharges" well at all. They have much thinner lead plates than AGM och Gel which are much better suited for our bikes.

 Good and well, but did Gel/AGM exist when 'Our' bikes were modern......? Not disputing what you say, just sayin'....


Title: Re: battery
Post by: duTch on 13.12. 2014 10:47

 Don't take me wrong Johnny, not having a go at yea, been punching  buttons for a while, and a bit over it, but I have to say I've experienced a few battos that've been down to small volts, and come good with a 'kick'...not to say it's in their favour, but they hang in there.......!!!
Title: Re: battery
Post by: Johnny J on 13.12. 2014 11:15

   Good and well, but did Gel/AGM exist when 'Our' bikes were modern......? Not disputing what you say, just sayin'....

No of course they didn't have those types back then, they had to live with what was available, if you take care of a wet battery and check the voltage and top the charge up regularly it can last for a long time. It's when the voltage goes down that this type of battery takes more punish.
Because of the thinner lead plates they also normally have a shorter life span.
Title: Re: battery
Post by: Johnny J on 13.12. 2014 11:26

 Don't take me wrong Johnny, not having a go at yea, been punching  buttons for a while, and a bit over it, but I have to say I've experienced a few battos that've been down to small volts, and come good with a 'kick'...not to say it's in their favour, but they hang in there.......!!!

Well, if you grab it when there still is some lead left you can sometimes charge it up to the right Voltage and it will stay there.
The capacity might have taken a serious beating though.

When I think about it there is actually more things that happens to a over discharged lead-acid battery, there are build-ups of oxide or sulphate on the lead plates that stops the travel of the electrons...wherever they are going...
Title: Re: battery
Post by: bsa-bill on 13.12. 2014 11:48
Quote
For our bikes, "wet" are no good, they are constructed for short bursts of high Amperage, like a starter motor

Was there much else about when our bikes were  new and legs were the norm for starting?
Yes I get the short burst high amp bit however I think it's more the case that batteries used to be more reliably built as far percentage of individual battery failures goes but over all decent batteries last much longer now, thinking of my 6 year old Focus still on original battery whereas in the sixties I seem to recall fitting a new battery was a regular thing every couple of years.
First house I remember living in (up to 7 years old) had no electricity, Dad built a "Wireless" housed in a wood vegetable box, it ran on two glass Accumulators (remember them) used them until they where flat then took them into Dumfries to get swapped with charged ones
Later in life during the cold war years I was a volunteer with the Royal Observer Corps, we had underground observation posts lit by NiFe batteries (Nickel Ferrous), these held the full charge for longer periods then went down fast.
So the technology may have changed and left out on a limb a bit
Title: Re: battery
Post by: Johnny J on 13.12. 2014 16:18
I should start by saying that English it not my first language...I should have said "not as good" instead of "no good" :-)

Glass Accumulators I have actually never heard of, wonder which chemistry they use?
NiFe I have heard about, If I remember the facts right they are very heavy and are still used today in solar plants for power backup.

What I use in my electric vechicles is LiFePo4, a type of Lithium-Ion battery, about half the weight and more than double the energy content compared to a Lead-Acid battery of the same physical size.
Have thought about using these in my BSA, but they are quite expensive and very sensitive to overcharge and over discharge.
Must have electronics that keep them (warnings at low and shunting at high) between 2.5 and 3.8V/cell at all times.

Sorry if I get a bit technical, batteries is another hobby of mine. ;-)
Title: Re: battery
Post by: bsa-bill on 13.12. 2014 17:10
this will be of interest to you then Johnny
http://www.museumoftechnology.org.uk/expand.php?key=191 (http://www.museumoftechnology.org.uk/expand.php?key=191)
Title: Re: battery
Post by: duTch on 13.12. 2014 21:34

 Johnny, I'll keep in mind that Ingleesh is not your native tongue, I hadn't noticed- although I have noted that most people who speak it a a second lingo, are usually better at it than the rest of us.....self included

 I was speaking with a solar guy yesterday about many things, one being batteries, and I'm sure he mentioned the Nickle-Iron something...I don't think I'd heard of them before, and he did show me some lithium ones...

 I'd like to use a good quality battery, just need to track one down, but reluctant to do that until I'm certain my charge system is ok, maybe upset the neighbours today *smile* if I drag myself away from here...- many things to tend to and work has been interfering with my life..... *conf*
Title: Re: battery
Post by: duTch on 21.02. 2015 00:59

 
Quote
this will be of interest to you then Johnny
http://www.museumoftechnology.org.uk/expand.php?key=191

 Had a look at this, but still doesn't explain- will research further, but it did remind me of this...

  http://www.last.fm/music/Hawkwind/_/Orgone+Accumulator (http://www.last.fm/music/Hawkwind/_/Orgone+Accumulator)
Title: Re: battery
Post by: morris on 22.02. 2015 22:09
Had a look at this, but still doesn't explain- will research further, but it did remind me of this...

  http://www.last.fm/music/Hawkwind/_/Orgone+Accumulator (http://www.last.fm/music/Hawkwind/_/Orgone+Accumulator)

Looking for answers in Hawkwind songs is no good sign duTch. Unless you suspect someone's put something in your drink wile you weren't looking...  :o
Title: Re: battery
Post by: bsa-bill on 22.02. 2015 22:23
Whoa there this is weird, I just finished watching a thing on BBC Iplayer about Marshall amps, Lemmy featured a few times

go here if your interested http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b04c3l7j/play-it-loud-the-story-of-the-marshall-amp
Title: Re: battery
Post by: Butch (cb) on 23.02. 2015 14:59
Now that is a cracking song. One long bass solo really. Would that have been Lemmy?
Title: Re: battery
Post by: bsa-bill on 23.02. 2015 15:15
if the photo goes with the track - yep
Hawkwind got through a lot of folks, Lemmy got chucked out for drug abuse it's said (that's was quite an achievement in that band)
Title: Re: battery
Post by: duTch on 23.02. 2015 17:31
 
Quote
Unless you suspect someone's put something in your drink wile you weren't looking...  :o
No way- silly enough already- and drinks are for washing things down(double dip maybe?), people pay big money to be like me *smile*

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBFdvcF7auY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBFdvcF7auY)

 That's funny B-Bill maybe somethings watching you- what's that over your left shoulder.. *????*

 Anyway this is a battery story, I figured an accumulator may be some kind of capacitor, and it kind of can be;-
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accumulator_%28energy%29 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accumulator_%28energy%29)

 But it sounds what Bill has in mind is just a fancy name for portable battery ?
Title: Re: battery
Post by: bsa-bill on 23.02. 2015 18:21
Quote
But it sounds what Bill has in mind is just a fancy name for portable battery ?

Exactly and basically the same as a lead acid battery in a glass case, car batteries possibly morphed from accumulators  to an accumulator in the familiar Bakeliteish or whatever it is 
case, glass being too fragile for the task
Title: Re: battery
Post by: duTch on 23.02. 2015 18:51

 
Quote
familiar Bakeliteish or whatever it is 
I've heard it referred to as 'rubber cases', even the guy at the battery shop yesterday said it I think- probably a rubber compound?? Bakelite might be a bit brittle. I guess a few of the other guys'll know..??
Title: Re: battery
Post by: RichardL on 23.02. 2015 20:01
Whoa there this is weird, I just finished watching a thing on BBC Iplayer about Marshall amps, Lemmy featured a few times

go here if your interested http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b04c3l7j/play-it-loud-the-story-of-the-marshall-amp

First of all, you can't watch BBC iPlayer in the U.S., but I found the video on YouTube. Then, Bill, I thought you were all about agriculture (and BSAs). Finally (in the realm of off-topic), while Marshall was busy becoming the biggest thing in guitar amps, the company I was with (Cerwin-Vega) was busy becoming the biggest thing is bass-guitar loudspeakers. Remember them bass cabinets with the powder-blue rectangle on the front? We gave Acoustic Control the design in order to sell raw loudspeakers. I hand-made the first prototype of the cabinet for them to copy.

Now, as for batteries and accumulators. With  respect to the "Orgone Accumulator," I think I will leave the search for that until another life. As for batteries, I'm having trouble figuring out where they fit in this thread. Just an historic look at the earliest wet cells?

Richard L.

 
Title: Re: battery
Post by: bsa-bill on 23.02. 2015 22:06
Quote
I'm having trouble figuring out where they fit in this thread.

There are two current Battery threads - maybe I've had a cross over moment!!
Title: Re: battery
Post by: duTch on 23.02. 2015 23:49

 Yep Bill I was confused too- that's why it took me a while to add to the other one; "battery issue"...where my issue went from here on P2...re the music stuff, well one thing leads to another..think it started digressing with the mention of accumulators...but it's still kinda related *conf*
Title: Re: battery
Post by: Topdad on 24.02. 2015 10:48
Dutch ,that sounds like someone hedging their bets  *smile* *????*Bob