The BSA A7-A10 Forum
Technical (Descriptive Topic Titles - Stay on Topic) => Lucas, Ignition, Charging, Electrical => Topic started by: muskrat on 10.02. 2015 09:09
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G'day all.
Is anyone else not getting many miles out of a belt? The cafe has just eaten her second in 3000 miles. The plunger has eaten a couple as well. There not getting oil contamination and are tensioned right (able to twist 90 degrees) and not getting hot, pulley's are in line. These are the red syncroflex AT5 10mm belts from SRM. Thinking I might have to try the 15mm belts from Mike.
Cheers
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I bet Mike's are better Muskrat, but I put an SRM one on about 5 or 6 years and a lot of miles ago, and it's still there. Not sure whether I'm lucky or you're unlucky. Probably the latter I'd say, as of course one always is fated if a long way away fom the supplier! Maybe they've changed the spec though? Dunno.
The only problems I had were with the taper on the drive pulley slipping (I fitted the centre of the discarded sprocket into the pulley to get a better solution in steel), and the retaining lip on one side of the same pulley had not been turned to finished diameter so it wouldn't allow the timing cover to go on, which involved a quick shave. Tension seems to stay put where I set it. Cheers, Bill
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Thanks Bill. I just noticed in Goffys A10 page he mentions belts not lasting 2000 miles. Strange to me that both mine like to chew'em. Both bikes run DVR2 to 12 volt Boyer ignition, never had the headlights on and brake light rarely comes on (brakes only slow you down ;)), so the dynamo wouldn't be working too hard.
I can't find a supplier of those belts down here and it takes about 3 weeks to get one from SRM. :(
Cheers
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Funny this should come up now, as last week while doing a 'a-la-Musky-Orabanda' modification to the timing as part of my contentious cush-nut episode *smile*, I had the timing cover off to do the obvious, and spotted a few bits of swarf in the belt chamber....nothing else looked out of place, and the belt had same acceptable tension...swarf was like fine steel wool, and I think I sucked the last few bits out with a magnet.. *dunno2*... belt has done about 4500 miles, nothing neck snapping though.... dunno why they should burn out so fast *????*
Mine is also an SRM supplied belt, but for some reason, I had the notion they are from a US manufacturer/supplier..
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The belt conversion is on my nice to have list, mainly to see if it is the source of noise making my engine sound worse than a mates a10 *smile* ......but if the belts don't last that would put me off doing the mod as the only time the bike has let me down was when it stopped charging when I was on a night ride *bash* (dodgy brushes was the cause)
So is there any consensus on the best kit to get and how often to replace belts to avoid a breakage?
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G'day duTch. Time to order a spare belt mate. sounds like its on its ay out.
KiwiGF, the jury is still out on this. I'll be contacting SRM and Gates to find a solution.
Cheers
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I think a 1/4 inch chain conversion would be a good compromise. As in Matchy magnetos and gennys instead of that pissy bicycle chain.
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I've had one of Mikes belt conversions in my A10 for 12,000 miles now and the generater still charges so I guess its still going around and around. Oneday I will take the timing cover off and have a look.
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Is the belt being bent round a smaller radius wheel than it is meant for?
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I thought that too TT. Just had a look at a few sites and the minimum size pulley is 14 teeth (more than I got *sick*). Just put the covers back on and didn't count them but the smallest AT5 pulley on their lists is 14 teeth so assume mine would be that or bigger.
Thought I'd better check the plunger (500 mile ride coming up in a few weeks), belt looks good. I noticed that it isn't a SRM job like on the cafe. Still a 10mm belt and pulley on the dynamo but a wider 20?mm drive pulley. I can't remember where it came from *dunno*. It might be one of Mike's early ones.
Cheers
Edit: just went back to 2011 and found the plunger belt kit came from Lytedrive Australia.
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A little input from a seller and long term user of toothed dynamo belt drives.
The Dynamo Regulators kit has pulley sizes of 16 & 47 T, to give +20% ratio over chain drive. This incidentally restores the dynamo : crank speed ratio to the same as in a magdyno machine, and does not over-speed dynamo. The kit is supplied with a 15 mm wide Synchroflex AT5 Gen III belt. I do not have the pulley sizes of the SRM kit to hand, but overall ratio is about 10 % up on chain. The SRM belt was upgraded at some stage to the same type as we supply but only 10 mm wide, therefore far less strong of course.
These belts are designed for durability will tolerate oil and grease or run dry and good up to 100 C. The sole manufacturer is Conti in Germany. The way these things are distributed means limited outlets and minimum quantities apply, not a simple off the shelf item, and not cheap, just the best for the job.
DRL has sold roughly 200 kits to date with very few problems. Some customers will buy a spare belt from the outset, others come back for a spare before a long trip. Only a handful of spare belts sold have been replacements for broken belts. The few problems we have heard of are mostly traced to over tension of belt when cold. What seems reasonable cold becomes a twangingly tight belt hot, which will obviously cause wear problems. It is important that the pulleys are correctly aligned so the belt does not rub excessively on one side.
The noise reduction benefit of these drives needs to be heard to be appreciated. The chain is noisy; this appears fussy perhaps until you realise the difference. Take a look when next at an auto-jumble at the witness marks on the timing cover where the chain rubs. Very few do not have the tell-tale pair of grooves.
The dynamo belt drive on my A10 has done well over 10,000 miles and showed no sign of any degradation last time I looked. Quite a few users have told me similar after greater mileages. 30,000 miles lifetime is the best estimated obtained for belt life. It is working well below maximum load figures in our application. How often do you chaps reckon to adjust or replace a dynamo chain?
Cheers
Mike Hutchings
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G'day duTch. Time to order a spare belt mate. sounds like its on its ay out.
Yo, that was first on my mind, at least to have on hand...I didn't scrutinize it too close as everything else looked ok- needed to finish task at hand first, but have a feeling it's 15mm but can't be sure.will have better look soon.
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G'day Mike.
Thanks for your input, it's great to have a member in the industry for knowledge on such issues. I wonder how long before they (SRM) follow your lead in going 15mm.
To be fair Gary at SRM was very quick to respond to my email.
G’day.
I have one of your kits on my ’57 A10 Café. The belts aren’t lasting very long at all. Two have gone in 3000 miles! Belts are not oil contaminated, pulleys run true and in line, tensioned so the belt can be twisted 90 degrees with fingers, dynamo in top condition. Any ideas? How much to send another two out to Australia? Link to my post on the BSA A7 & A10 Forum.
http://www.a7a10.net/forum/index.php?topic=9131.msg65949#new
Cheers
This is Gary's reply.
Hi Jim,
we have sold literally hundreds of these kits, and only to my knowledge two people including you have this issue, both cases are in a country where temperatures can run high and both cases belt has been run "dry" , these belts are suitable for running in grease or oil, we do suggest to run with grease, it will keep it a little cooler and help keep belt lubed to pulleys.
Also if you run a dedicated 12v wound dynamo, instead of converted 6v by regulator, this armature has thinner wires, and if a high wattage halogen bulb say a 45 to 50w is used, dynamos running this and rear tail will overheat and cuase excessive load on the drive and sometimes even seize the dynamo up., There are low wattage 35w halogen BPF bulbs availbale to help keep the load requirement from the max 60watts output of the old dyanmo down to a minimum, also some ignition kits if replacing the magento run at 28 to 30 watts, so with a headlamp bulb dynamo is definately overloaded.
I can send couple belts out to you with some discount and free post to help you out, but if possible can you give any info or input about the information i have given above, to see if you have any of these issues that may have contributed to the belt failures ?
Thanks Gary
So the only cause I can see would be heat. The pipe on the cafe run over the top of the cover and may contribute. I'll wrap them to see if this improves the situation.
Cheers
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They recommend greasing the belt?
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Grease on a toothed belt? Not this little vegemite!
I have fitted the SRM kit to half a dozen bikes, and was dismayed to have one belt shred itself after 2,000 miles.
It was also adjusted correctly.
Hoping it doesn't happen again. the others; so far, so good.
I tap two 1/4"BSW holes in the main pulley, so it can be pulled off the idler pinion.
Richard from a hot Kalgoorlie (45C).
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Yep got a reply from Gery at SRM.
Hi Jim,
if its a standard Boyer ignition module and not a micro-power type, it comsumes 28 to 30watts, a micro-power uses 6watts. But as you say the lights are not used , then it should be ok, the pipes will transfer extra unwanted heat, so please pack the dyno belt drive with grease when its re=fitted.
Cheers Gary
Looks like the high level pipe is getting the blame, and a new coat (heat wrap). I was going to do it one day. I'll try a little LMP grease in there as well. Yes I don't like that idea either Richard, but I'll try anything twice.
My plunger has eaten a couple but at a much slower chew. Doubt if heat is to blame there.
Cheers
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I've always ran my S.R.M. belt in grease, no problems so far, and about 7,000 miles. Mag ignition, 35/45 headlight and LED's everywhere else.
For my money the grease must keep the belt cooler.
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For my money the grease must keep the belt cooler.
Yep - think that's got to be so, big old y alloy case exposed to the air and the grease just a liquidish heat transfer from belt to case.
I've seen a lot of big poly vee belts give up on combines and such, tucked away in the engine compartments / safety shields out of any airflow, always some friction on pulleys and the smaller the pulley the more work is put into the belt to bend around it
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Your not going to believe this fellas. The cafe off the road with a broken belt.
Saturday arvo I was readying the plunger for a 150 mile ride on Sunday. I thought I'd better check the belt. All good, same tension as set last time, no worrying marks. 50 miles into the ride she spluttered to a halt. Let cool for a minute and she fired up as if nothing was wrong. Another 2 miles she stopped again!! That confirmed it for me, bat flattery. Bugga, Boyer ignition. Jumped on a mates pillion seat to complete the ride. (New Triumph's seat and top box no good for my back, I'm real sore today.) Recovered the bike with my trailer. 1st test dynamo output, zilch nil nothing. You guessed it, another broken belt.This one a real clean brake/snap, the cafe's belt was mangled. So both off the road till replacements arrive from SRM (3 weeks at least).
Now where did I put the chain and sprockets? Oh that's right, their on last years bike show trophy's.BUGGA.
Cheers
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Musky,
I can send you my spare; should only be a few days from WA.
You can replace in due course.
PM me if this suits,
Richard
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Mate, that would be great. PM sent.
We can only get the standard Syncroflex in Australia from a mob in Victoria. Pies Australia is the only one I've found.
Cheers
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Hi Musky
I would run the belt looser than the normal 90deg twist tension
My SR's belt has been fitted for quite a few years now and no troubles so far
I felt the 90 deg twist tension was too tight when I fitted it so its set "a bit" looser
Are you going to add grease? mine is running dry
Cheers
John
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G'day John.
There has to be a better way to measure the correct belt tension. The 90 deg method gives about 3/8" play. I will try the grease, but am concerned that with a little more play and grease the belt might jump teeth on the pulley.
The dyno pulley has 16 teeth so not at the 14 minimum. I don't think heat was a factor this time.
Cheers
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Hi Muskrat,
I would have thought an easy 3/8ths was enough,
I have seen toothed cam belts still working when they were hanging loose *eek*
Its been quite a long time since I had the timing cover off mine *????* so fingers crossed
One advantage of running a mag ignition though is that I should be able to get home with out charging
Cheers
John
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Forgot to mention in my earlier post. My pipes are high level, same height as the front pulley and only about 1/8 inch from the casing. It's never caused at problem for me.
Like Travolta said "Grease is the word"
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I questioned Pies about the Gen111 belts. Got a reply that looks good for anyone in Australia.
Hi Musky,
We offer as follows:
4pcs 10AT5/420 GEN III Synchroflex Belts $25.25 ea +GST
Time of delivery: approx. 1-2 weeks subject to prior sale.
Regards,
Hayden
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Yesterday I had another look, doesn't 'seem' too bad, but evidence of wire protrusion on the belt rear side. The outer face of each pulley are within a poofteenth of each other...and it seems the belt wants to run against the inner flare/flange of both, even though there is about ~1mm clearance outer side, so I'm wondering if the swarf I found is from the pulley 'flares'... *????*
Belt tension is as per 90˚ twist, or ~5mm deflection mid-run, pulley centres 130mm (pic.2)...oh yeah, it is a 10mm belt..you'd think I'd install it so I can read the numbers without a headstand..!!
Not much else I can add for now except say I'll chase up a spare belt, the local bearing shop does belts, will see if they do these...and try that Pies shop...
Not sure if the swaarf is that in pic4 or just some random stuff from the floor- is more than I remember, but looks like it *eek*
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G'day duTch. I've got two coming from SRM. One to replace the belt orabanda loaned me and one for the cafe.
I'll be ordering 4 from Pies if you want one or two.
The deflection should be felt on the bottom run of the belt and would suggest a bit more than 5mm but not enough to hit the screw boss in the middle.
Cheers
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Why not use a V belt like Velo's?
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Why not use a V belt like Velo's?
Wilko,
Reasonable idea, but I guess it could be done but as I/we already have this setup....may as well use it, and the other would require more research/logistics.. *conf*
Yo Musky, I was gonna ask where's the Pies Shop..?? but think I just found it, probably just as easy for me to go straight there, save any double-up postage and hassle??
As far as I can tell the belt pitch is 5mm? -or would it be in imperial ? Trying to crack the #code; A=section/wide?, T=toothed?, 5=mm?, 420=mm length? (84T x5mm =420mm)
But what about '046'...? batch#...?
To determine the 5mm deflection, I pushed on the bottom side to get a straight line on to measure from the top, and the belt just touched the boss under pressure. Other than than, how does it matter if the slack is at top or bottom as it spins anti-clock..?
Just had a look at Pies, but can't find a listing for 10mm belts??? smallest is 16mm (16AT5/420 Synchroflex Timing Belt)
...a bit later....
Cancel all that kinda- I just called Pieshop, and spoke to Shannon, he said they cut it to width, and they don't have any RED Synchro 111 in Oz, it may need to come from Germany...the RED belt is about 25% stronger..
...sooo, I'll email Hayden?
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dutch, Pies need to get them from Germany hence the wait (2 weeks). The Syncroflex Gen 111 are only made in Germany so whoever retails like SRM get them from there. It comes in a fat belt and is sliced off to order. The AT is the shape of the teeth and the 5 is 5mm, 420 is the length.
Cheers
Richards belt just arrived so Do Not Disturb for a few hours.
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Update. Richards belt was installed and seemed OK on a couple of round the block rides. I added high temp bearing grease (all I had on the shelf), about 1/2 cup to the chamber. The new belts arrived last week so I had a spare to take on the weekends 550 mile ride. No worries, started 1st kick every time and didn't miss a beat. BUT, the fellow riders have re-christened the bike The Greaser. Yep I didn't replace the cork dynamo seal and as the grease melted it leaked out all over the side of the bike & tyre *eek*. Made right hand bends real interesting, following riders (I was leading the ride) were quite entertained.
She also lived up to her name Bl@@dy Sore idiot as all bar two of the NEW seat springs broke. Bl@@dy crap Indian parts.
Cheers
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She also lived up to her name Bl@@dy Sore idiot as all bar two of the NEW seat springs broke. Bl@@dy crap Indian parts.
Thanks for the encouraging words Musky. I just spent a whole Sunday trying to fit an Indian made saddle on the plunger. *work*
In the end I succeeded to make something decent out of it, so don't tell me it was all for nothing... *roll*
Cheers anyway, and glad you got that belt sorted *wink2*
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Just looked into my timing cover and pleased to say belt still in good shape just needed adjustment and seems fine. The only problem is I can't remember where I got it from. thought SRM but it's black toothed and vee and SRM belts are red ,aren't they ? Might be from Hawker did buy some things from .Any ideas where I'd a replacement Cheers BobH
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G'day Bob. You probably got your set up from Sean Hawker. V belts need to be taut and dry where flat toothed belts need a fair bit of slack and can handle oil/grease (but I don't like it)
cheers.
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Now that Sean Hawker has gone out of business does anyone know of anyone who can supply replacement v belts? The existing belt I have has Contitech FO-Z 6/y 400 Li Z18042008 stamped on it, if that's any help.
thanks
John
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Ditto for me John, if I hear anything I'll Pm you could you do the same . Whilst able to say the belts fine at the mo ,just adjustment needed, I'd like to have a spare so any help, greatly appreciated, regards,Bob
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okeydokey
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Google is your friend. 6/y 400 is 6mm wide 4mm high 400mm inner length.
http://simplybearings.co.uk/shop/p680019/Optibelt+VB-6x400-Li+Cogged+Classical+6mm+Wide+4mm+Deep+V-Belt/product_info.html
Cheers
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you're a star, Muskie. Page bookmarked, an order will go in on Monday,
John
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whoops this turned into a saga
I could start anew, but here is most relevant.....yesterday, I had to fix what turned out to be a broken battery connection(red +ve earth wire *conf*), so took advantage of this to change the polarity, as I've intended for a while...(I'm dyslexic enough, don't need to compicate things; RED +ve BLACK --ve), went ok (flashed D+F to battery +ve, battery -ve to engine casing- 'click' from dynamo..!...yup), switched battery connections, fired up ok meter registered 'D+F' = >8 V+ve. seeweet...(for non-cuzzy-bros, that's 'positive response'). so went out for a jaunt, and light entertainment, on the way back an hour or two after dark; uhoh looks a bit dark out front *eek*
Thought I must've blown a fuse or something, so fiddled about for a while to no avail 0 volts so decided to take a punt and do a runner, only a few K's from camp....made it over the bridge two to go, and a guy in a Fourby came alongside giving funny looks, so I 'waved him on' (FO) and after I made it around the corner, into the back street, he decided to come say hello, and funny enough, the lights on his wagon matched my bike scheme....red and blue...so we exchanged names and stuff...forget what station he was from....wasn't a train or fire station, but not a hard push, lucky mostly flat...I improvised *smile* and made it home...
Back home battery volts grew by themselves seweet!, so today no work, had a look thinking how can changing polarity make things go dark- shouldn't suck light, should make it....hmmm, everything seemed ok, ~2Ω on th field coil, then 'D'+'F' with motor running =0Volts....but 'D'+'F' + grounded = good motoring....excellent motoring in fact... *eek*, but it wasn't in gear, shouldn't do that..?.. *bash* *bash*
*bright idea* Obviously there was an issue with the timing belt,*wink2*, so ripped off the cover and the belt was there intact, but extremely flaccid *conf*....thought the genny must've slipped, but no, just had lost its guts(all that previous swarf) and sliding over one or both pulleys...lucky I'd picked up anothery, so whacked it in tightened by hand only and hey presto...pulley centres same as before ~130mm, but a bit less deflection ~3mm
New belt is Optibelt/polyurethane as opposed to the steel of the other one
Now I just need to deal with amp gauge reading >-+<
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I was in Cromwell Tools the other day and picked up a Dunlop power transmission catalogue.....250 pages of every size of toothed belt and pulley you can think of! I don't have a belt off a bike at the moment but if anyone has the size I can look up the part number.....
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Rob
The toothed belt I have is; 10mm wide AT5/420 thanks for the offer, but maybe not much good to us in Oz(?)
Musky, I re thunk this, but still think it doesn't matter that much...flex'd be the same on top as on the bottom...???
The deflection should be felt on the bottom run of the belt and would suggest a bit more than 5mm but not enough to hit the screw boss in the middle.
there's another local bearing place that also does belts (Pax?) might try them for a next spare I bought the last one from the usual (helpful) bearing shop I use, bu tit wasn't the brand they usually deal with, dunno why I didn't ask who they normally use....just had a bee in the bonnet that I needed what I ordered
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I'd given up on my dynamo ,was convinced it wasn't charging and decided it could stay that way until the winter lay up , been keeping the battery charged by a great little oxford drip charger anyway, couldn't connect the charger for a couple of days and pulled the bike out for ride on Thursday and during the warm up noticed the ammeter showing a steady charge , so am I right in thinking the battery has been fully charged and that it didn't need any thing from the dynamo *whistle* *bright idea* Dozy sod that I am !! Also got to add that the battery ( lead acid ) is now nearly 10 yrs old this is a record for me ,how long have others had batterys last, regards Bob.
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Well Bob, given that as I posted in other threads, I blew up maybe four in three months, ten years ain't so bad...current one (no pun intended), is a cheapie six Ahr jobbie, until I ensure things are working fine... maybe as per also other threads, we don't notice if they're charging or not if they don't need to be charging...if yea kenow what i mean...? like if you turn your lights on the amp meter goes -ve, and when you start it, and it goes toward +ve, it's charging..kinda maybe...but you surely don't need me to tell you that *smile*
unless your amp meter is wired up backwards like mine may now be, but that doesn't take much to figure out (in hope-watch this space *eek*)
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Think your on the button Bob, also means your AVC is doing what it's supposed to do.
If you alter the polarity of your bike Dutch then you need to reverse the ammeter too,
and don't rush into thinking some things wrong if the ammeter shows noting even if you know it the battery is not fully charged , mine did this after reversing the polarity and changing to a DVR2 (yeah should do one thing at a time) no charge on the ammeter until I gave it a really big handful of throttle then it kicked in, has been good ever since
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If you alter the polarity of your bike Dutch then you need to reverse the ammeter too,
yep, was thinking that, but one thing at a time....like you say. Funny thing is at the mo (A. meter unchanged), when I turn lights on (not running) it goes to '+6' as it should, then fire up, and it goes to '0' just above idle as I'd expect, but with more revs it goes back to '+' which I didn't expect... *conf*....but I'll leave it for a day or so, and see what happens under riding conditions, and even try a different meter in the changeover- but as long as it's doing anything I'm happy *smile*