The BSA A7-A10 Forum

Technical => Lucas, Electrical, Ignition => Topic started by: a101960 on 25.04. 2015 11:52

Title: LED headlamp lamps
Post by: a101960 on 25.04. 2015 11:52
I have just ordered a BPF main beam/dipped beam BPF LED lamp that will go straight into the existing A10 headlamp without any modification. If anyone else should be interested in buying and fitting one they are obtainable from here: http://www.dynamoregulatorconversions.com/led-headlamp-bulbs-shop.php Just thought that this information might be of use to some of you.
John
Title: Re: LED headlamp lamps
Post by: Greybeard on 25.04. 2015 12:26
Please will you post a review here when you've tested it?
Title: Re: LED headlamp lamps
Post by: a101960 on 25.04. 2015 12:54
Quote
Please will you post a review here when you've tested it?
Yes, no problem I will be more than happy to do so.
Title: Re: LED headlamp lamps
Post by: Derby Rob on 25.04. 2015 17:21
hi,
    so if i am reading  the info in the link correctly the led p36d bpf would be the one i need,it also states it is the same bulb for 6 or 12 volts .
But i can only get the option of negative earth and not positive ?yet if i look at the photo of the bulb it says available in both negative and positive versions!
Title: Re: LED headlamp lamps
Post by: a101960 on 25.04. 2015 17:47

Quote
so if i am reading  the info in the link correctly the led p36d bpf would be the one i need,it also states it is the same bulb for 6 or 12 volts .
But i can only get the option of negative earth and not positive ?

I just checked out the website, and you are correct. Positive earth not yet available yet but coming soon.
Quote
BA15d, P36D (BPF) and P30d (APF) negative earth first in the shop to start you off!
BA20d (Bosch) and positive earth variants here very soon
Title: Re: LED headlamp lamps
Post by: Rocket Racer on 28.04. 2015 05:42
Sounds really promising, I look forward to the review!  *idea*
Title: Re: LED headlamp lamps
Post by: bsa-bill on 28.04. 2015 08:15
Quote
I look forward to the review!  /quote]

me too
Title: Re: LED headlamp lamps
Post by: cyclobutch on 28.04. 2015 13:20
In particular I'll be real interested in how you find it works with your existing reflector and lens i.e. its projection on both high and low beams. Thanks for posting.
Title: Re: LED headlamp lamps
Post by: wilko on 29.04. 2015 00:11
If you just swap the ammeter wires at the terminals and change your battery terminalsand repolarize your dynamo you will have neg earth. Ten minute job.
Title: Re: LED headlamp lamps
Post by: Rocket Racer on 29.04. 2015 01:26
If you just swap the ammeter wires at the terminals and change your battery terminalsand repolarize your dynamo you will have neg earth. Ten minute job.

I concur, I recently changed my daughters mk1 mini to negative earth and the only difficulty was the fuel pump wiring had to be reversed... took me about 5 minutes all up
Title: Re: LED headlamp lamps
Post by: Greybeard on 26.06. 2015 20:35
How did the LED headlamp experiment go?
Title: Re: LED headlamp lamps
Post by: a101960 on 27.06. 2015 09:58
Very pleased with the LED headlight. Note no discharge at all on the ammeter.(http://) The yellow colour is the halogen bulb, the blue/white is the LED. In reality the Led does not look blue to the naked eye, but that is the colour that the camera sees. BTW I checked with the MOT tester, and LED lamps are not illegal in the UK. You can just make out the ammeter discharge on the halogen lamp pictures. Sorry for the delay in reporting back. It completely slipped my mind.
John
Title: Re: LED headlamp lamps
Post by: Ted_Flash on 27.06. 2015 10:24
Very pleased with the LED headlight. Note no discharge at all on the ammeter.(http://) The yellow colour is the halogen bulb, the blue/white is the LED. In reality the Led does not look blue to the naked eye, but that is the colour that the camera sees. BTW I checked with the MOT tester, and LED lamps are not illegal in the UK. You can just make out the ammeter discharge on the halogen lamp pictures. Sorry for the delay in reporting back. It completely slipped my mind.
John

One of my mates has been testing several LED bulbs in his headlamp.  The general finding is that they are OK round town but if you actually need to illuminate the darkness, you will end up in a ditch very shortly.  They give a pencil like beam, they really need to be designed as a whole unit, not just a bulb with an existing reflector.
Title: Re: LED headlamp lamps
Post by: a101960 on 27.06. 2015 10:30
Bill, not sure when you looked at the post. What you surmised was right, but I have since edited the post. You should now see 4 pictures.
John
Title: Re: LED headlamp lamps
Post by: bsa-bill on 27.06. 2015 11:01
What post would that be John  ;)  must have looked in just as you posted

Quite impressive, would need a ride out on a dark night I suppose to get a good idea of penetration.
but considering this is early days for LED systems the future could be ......  (no I'll resist)

Thanks for the review tho John
Title: Re: LED headlamp lamps
Post by: a101960 on 27.06. 2015 11:40
I will try and get some better pictures later on today.  Ted - Flash that is an interesting comment 
Quote
One of my mates has been testing several LED bulbs in his headlamp.  The general finding is that they are OK round town but if you actually need to illuminate the darkness, you will end up in a ditch very shortly.  They give a pencil like beam, they really need to be designed as a whole unit, not just a bulb with an existing reflector.
Do you know what combination of LED and reflectors your mate was using? The subject of reflector/ lens orientation is a complex one. For many years I worked at Thorn Lighting as a lamp technician and we tested many different headlamp units. The best lens reflector unit was the Marchal twin reflector, twin H1/H3 lamp combination. One lamp ( H3) was vertically orientated, and the other lamp (H1) was horizontally orientated. Moving on to H4 lamps, strictly speaking H4 lamps should only be used with the custom designed H4 lens reflector unit. This gives the correct dip beam pattern that lights up the edge of the road. The filament assembly of the H4 also incorporates a shield under the dip beam to assist with focusing. In practice H4 lamps with BPF fittings in a Lucas 700 lens and reflector work reasonably well. True you do not get the same sharp cut off on dip beam as you would with the correct H4 lens assembly, but it is practical to use this combination. Automotive lamps are all focused from the flange and this achieved by mounting the lamp in a shadowgraph and then manipulating the lamp capsule before fixing the flange in place (well that is how Thorn Lighting used to do it). As far as my LED lamp is concerned the beams are focused in much the same way as an H4 lamp. The dip beam is from a light source on top of the lamp unit, and directed to the top of the reflector.  The light is reflected downwards in the same way as the H4 dip beam operates. There is a second light source on the underside. Both light sources are lit for main beam. In this instance the whole of the reflector is lit.
John
Title: Re: LED headlamp lamps
Post by: a101960 on 25.07. 2015 13:48
As an update on this topic here are a couple of new pictures showing the dip/main led beam pattern. By the way, the bike passed its MOT with the led lamp fitted.
John

(http://)
Title: Re: LED headlamp lamps
Post by: The Artful Bodger on 17.10. 2015 23:06
I'll just add my two peneth worth here. I've just bought one of these (from the link here) and have just got back from a ride down the lanes. My Ariel is 6V pos earth and the improvement is 100 fold! A very white light which lights up the sides of the road as well as up ahead, not as efficient as the 12V halogen in my Suzuki but a vast improvement from the standard bulb and a 6V halogen.
  My "lowest charging speed" in 4th had dropped from 35 mph. to 27 mph. I've just ordered a LED stop / tail bulb from them so hopefully this charge speed might drop a little more as well as saving battery power stopped at the lights etc.
 The price for the headlight bulb ain't cheap and I don't like wasting money, however I consider this money well spent.
Colin
Title: Re: LED headlamp lamps
Post by: WozzA on 19.11. 2015 02:02
 *whistle*   if all else fails...    *whistle*
Title: Re: LED headlamp lamps
Post by: BSA500 on 02.12. 2015 16:34
Maybe a stupid question how do you wire in the h4 replacement led bulb. It shows on the website with a two pin plug and no third wire(earth?). And the heat pads where/how do they fit??.
Title: Re: LED headlamp lamps
Post by: a101960 on 02.12. 2015 17:45
Quote
Maybe a stupid question how do you wire in the h4 replacement led bulb.
Below is an image of the correct H4 pin out. Can you give a link to the website to clarify things?

(http://)
Title: Re: LED headlamp lamps
Post by: BSA500 on 02.12. 2015 23:03
They are on the link you posted in your first post http://www.dynamoregulatorconversions.com/led-headlamp-bulbs-shop.php . I have the halogen H4 fitted already but the led replcements only have a two pin plug?
Title: Re: LED headlamp lamps
Post by: a101960 on 03.12. 2015 09:30
I have tried to copy and save an enlarged image of the LED H4 replacement lamps but for some reason I am unable to do so. However, if you enlarge the image on the website and study it closely, you will see that what looks like a two pin connector is actually a three pin connector. Due to the angle that the lamps were photographed at, the third pin is almost completely masked. You can see this more clearly on the left hand  side  connecter  ( relatively speaking) but if you look hard you can just about discern the third pin on the right hand connecter. Hope this helps. The image presentation is not very well thought out I must say. But, those connecters are three pin, trust me! Click on the website image to enlarge it, and look very closely, and you will be able to see that they are three pin connecters
John
Title: Re: LED headlamp lamps
Post by: Greybeard on 03.12. 2015 09:59
Is this the image?
Title: Re: LED headlamp lamps
Post by: a101960 on 03.12. 2015 10:13
Quote
Is this the image?
Yes, that's it. Well done Graybeard my man. No idea why I could not copy it. Anyway the job's a goodun, and thanks to Graybeard the errant third pin is now clearly visible for all to see. So, there you go BSA500, thanks to Graybeard you can see for yourself what I was on about.
Title: Re: LED headlamp lamps
Post by: Greybeard on 03.12. 2015 12:32
I have a great tool on my computer called Zapgrab; it's very useful for grabbing part of a web page. Zapgrab is still free I think. I just found a link for you but a review there says that the current version is full of adverts and is now bloated and set off his anti-virus software so be careful.
Title: Re: LED headlamp lamps
Post by: a101960 on 03.12. 2015 13:08
Quote
I have a great tool on my computer called Zapgrab; it's very useful for grabbing part of a web page. Zapgrab is still free I think. I just found a link for you but a review there says that the current version is full of adverts and is now bloated and set off his anti-virus software so be careful.
Yeah, I just checked it out. My anti virus did not like it one bit, but thanks for the information. I have managed to edit and slightly enlarge the image to show the third pin.
(http://)
Title: Re: LED headlamp lamps
Post by: BSA500 on 03.12. 2015 13:10
Brilliant picture capture and enlargement Graybeard. I can see now. Looks like in the new year I may invest in a new led headlight. I usually ride all year but as in other posts I am currently reshimming the bottom end and of course having to now get some new gaskets but I am not allowed any money till after crimble :(
Title: Re: LED headlamp lamps
Post by: duTch on 04.12. 2015 10:42

 I've been following this with interest, didn't look at the link until a couple of days ago, and was confused by the leads in the picture- I thought it was for something to plug into mains power *conf*........
....but now I see my error....it's a good concept, the Cree LED's seem the current ducks nuts (pun not much intended)

 I think this thread started about the same time as Graybeards mission of a 12v converter(?) which got me started on a different course, and also motivated by my neighbours ARB 7500 lumen spotties on his fourbie ...I tried to chase up some kind of accessory spottie to augment the lighting of darkness; to no avail, but started delving into bicycle lights which are increasingly (and irritatingly) bright. To cut it short, I found some 1800 lumen single mode Cree units on ebay, so bought some and made a module of eight (2x4), top ones for low beam, and with a diode both come on for high (dazzle).
 They are very bright, in theory 8x1800= 14,400 lumens..maybe not how it is in practice though.

 I'm still working on alignment, and figure it may not be exactly 'legal', but if I can see light in front I think I can justify it- especially when being followed by some dumbarse with mega-brights (as I will *smile*), and I 'm swallowed up in my own Joe Lucas shadow.
 
  Having said all that these units in topic could save a lot of messing around...but not cheap plus postage

* Mine's a '52/3 with a later headlamp that doesn't have the underslung pilot, so figure the unit I've made kinda 'fits in'

     phew
Title: Re: LED headlamp lamps
Post by: warmshed on 04.12. 2015 11:42
Looks good.  Price a bit steep.  Have a look here, £7 cheaper and you get a pair!  http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/New-CREE-LED-60W-6400LM-Car-Headlight-6000K-H1-H3-H4-H7-H11-H13-9005-9006-9007-/252175352866?var=&hash=item3ab6d28422:m:mOcEU7VLxCND_ALXn8GPc0A so a lot less than half price.
Title: Re: LED headlamp lamps
Post by: bsa-bill on 04.12. 2015 12:16
Quote
I have a great tool on my computer called Zapgrab

Worth remembering Windows has it's own tool "snipping tool" which I use all the time
Title: Re: LED headlamp lamps
Post by: Dean on 05.12. 2015 21:32
Just make sure when orderingonline that they dip to the correct side for your country!
Title: Re: LED headlamp lamps
Post by: duTch on 05.12. 2015 22:29
 
Quote
.... that they dip to the correct side for your country!

 Is it the insert that determines that or as I thought, the reflector does that...? Or are LED ones different, warmsheds look a good choice

 I neglected to note that the reflector I have is a Hella H4 (obvious by the photo, but I just realized has fallen over, I'll try that again), but it's a motorcycle specific' one, not sure how they differ from a car one though- must be something about the lens.
 I had one in the Guttzi, but got a stone hole and had to replace with a Narva but it's not as good a spread pattern as the Hella- not cheap though ~AU$100+, should be cheaper in UK/EU.

 I have to ask, re; the Cree inserts, if the flappy stuff on the back is a heat sink, and if it needs to be thermally insulated...??
Title: Re: LED headlamp lamps
Post by: duTch on 05.12. 2015 22:35
Just had another quick look at the Cree inserts, and FREE POSTAGE is a plus, but it only specifies 9V-16V input, so no good for 6V *rant*


Description

NOT Built-in CANBUS
Socket Type: H1 / H3 / H4 / H7 / H11 / H13 / 9005(HB3) / 9006(HB4) / 9007
Power: 60W/Set (30W/each bulb)
Lumens: 3200LM/each bulb
LED Chip: CREE
LED Quantity: 2 pcs per bulb for H1,H3,H7,H11,9005 and 9006

                         4pcs per bulb for H4,H13 and 9007

Light color: White

Power Input: DC 9V-16V
Beam Angel: 360°
Lifespan: > 30,000 Hours
Waterproof Level: IP65
Available Color: 6000K
Title: Re: LED headlamp lamps
Post by: sparx on 05.12. 2015 22:37
The position of the light source in relation to the reflector, be it either filament or LED, alters the "dip" or "main" bit. The lens alters the "dip left" or "dip right" bit.
Title: Re: LED headlamp lamps
Post by: duTch on 05.12. 2015 23:11
 
Quote
The position of the light source in relation to the reflector, be it either filament or LED, alters the "dip" or "main" bit. The lens alters the "dip left" or "dip right" bit.

 yep, I figured that, but was wondering if the LED inserts in particular also somehow affected left or right ...
Quote
Is it the insert that determines that or as I thought, the reflector does that...? Or are LED ones different,

 So on the basis of what say above, they should be universal fitment, and we should already have the correct reflector/lens for our country anyway....so how you you get on when you cross the channel...?

 On a slightly different note, maybe some of these aftermarket items are not necessarily legal on our machines, or is that just an Oz (ADR) thing, not that I care- if it works better *smile*
Title: Re: LED headlamp lamps
Post by: trevinoz on 06.12. 2015 00:17
Originally motor cycle headlights didn't dip to one side, just up and down.
Title: Re: LED headlamp lamps
Post by: duTch on 06.12. 2015 00:32

 
Quote
Originally motor cycle headlights didn't dip to one side, just up and down.

 A bit like a Noddy-bike *smile*....

Trev, I just posted a Q about 6Volt relays here in case you miss it..

http://www.a7a10.net/forum/index.php?topic=8663.0 (http://www.a7a10.net/forum/index.php?topic=8663.0)
Title: Re: LED headlamp lamps
Post by: Greybeard on 06.12. 2015 09:24
My bike headlamp doesn't dip to one side and surely they shouldn't
Title: Re: LED headlamp lamps
Post by: bsa-bill on 06.12. 2015 09:54
 some of them do, although I'm not sure that it's maybe in the design of the headlamp glass
Title: Re: LED headlamp lamps
Post by: a101960 on 06.12. 2015 10:34
Quote
some of them do, although I'm not sure that it's maybe in the design of the headlamp glass
Yes, it is the headlamp lens that determins wether the dip beam is biased to the left or to the right. Typically left or right dipping is a feature of H4 and other halogen lamp headlamp lenses. The BFP type dip up and down. This applies to both motorcycles and cars. For people that were visiting the continent the advice given was to stick a piece of tape on the lens, and I believe that this was also acceptable for conforming to UK MOT test standards if continental lenses were fitted to a vehicle being used in the UK. I don't know if it still applies but it used to be a requirement in France that yellow bulbs were fitted.
Title: Re: LED headlamp lamps
Post by: sparx on 06.12. 2015 11:10
They don't have to dip left or right. The important thing is that they don't dazzle oncoming traffic.

  I seem to recall having a car, possibly a Simca, that had a lever on the bulb holder that could be switched over to change the side of dip. If my memory is correct then maybe it would be more accurate to say that dipping left or right is governed by both the lens and the position of the light source in relation to the reflector.
Title: Re: LED headlamp lamps
Post by: a101960 on 06.12. 2015 15:34
Quote
They don't have to dip left or right. The important thing is that they don't dazzle oncoming traffic.
In general what you say is correct. H4 lenses are designed so that on dip the beam is focused to throw a central pool of light with a strict height cut off in front of the vehicle, and to project a secondary higher and longer beam along the nearside edge of the road. The actual lamp does not play a major role in the direction of either main or dip beam. I worked as a lighting technician at Thorn lighting for many years, and I can tell you that there were no export lamps. All lamps for the home market and for export were identical. It is the lens that determins the over all focus parameters. Dazzle is the the product of poor lamp set up.
Title: Re: LED headlamp lamps
Post by: trevinoz on 06.12. 2015 20:16
The dip is not controlled by the lens but is solely in the construction of the bulb.
Motorcycle bulbs have the two filaments in line with each other, car types have the low beam filament offset.
The lens pattern of diffusion matches the type of bulb which should be used with it.
Have a look at the original Lucas BPF glass for motorcycles. The word "motorcycle" is embossed in it.
The car units, in this country, have "right hand drive" on them.
Title: Re: LED headlamp lamps
Post by: trevinoz on 07.12. 2015 20:33
Further to the dip, I had a look at the Lucas book. It seems that until 1956 home models had a vertical dip but thereafter a left hand dip, the difference being the bulb.
Export models could be anything, left hand, right hand or vertical.
Interestingly, the RGS was listed as vertical dip only.
Title: Re: LED headlamp lamps
Post by: Dean on 07.12. 2015 22:18
Oops another senior moment. Of course its th lens not the lamp(bulb) that determines the dipped beam pattern *red*
Title: Re: LED headlamp lamps
Post by: trevinoz on 08.12. 2015 20:17
You are wrong, Dean.
Title: Re: LED headlamp lamps
Post by: Dean on 08.12. 2015 20:27
I checked my headlamp lens today and it does not have H markings or seem to have the dipped beam cut-off. So just up or down for main/dip. But then its a replacement.
Lighting legislation is a nightmare, some is retrospective and some isn't. I ended up phoning the DoT whe restoring the Beagle as it did not come as standard with a brake light (1964). The technical experts at DoT were really helpful but sadly advised that brake-light legislation was retrospective so I'd have to fit one. No space in the tiny rear lamp to fit a combined stop tail! This wa a long time before led bulbs were available but an electronics wiz designed and array of leds that we siliconed inside the lens running off a pp9 battery stuck in the toolbox.

The legislation is, I suspect, influenced by manufacturers desire to market their technology, rather than road user needs. Hence the high tech expensove and  glaring headlamps in modern cars.

Title: Re: LED headlamp lamps
Post by: Dean on 08.12. 2015 20:29
You are wrong, Dean.

No, its true, I do have senior moments (e.g. http://www.a7a10.net/forum/index.php?topic=10105.0) *smile*
Title: Re: LED headlamp lamps
Post by: The Artful Bodger on 08.12. 2015 20:45
I was given a little GN 125, I suggested to my friend who was given it, that it was too cute to be left sitting outside rusting away. Next thing I knew he'd dropped it round to my house. Anyway the headlight bulb was working but black so I bought another one, it has an American pre-focus bulb. I went out after dark and it was dipping to the right, changed back to the original bulb and it dipped to the left. I bought and tried another APF bulb and that too dipped to the right.
 The original bulb has one filament horizontally across the bulb and the second one V'd over the horizontal one but in a vertical position. Both the new ones I bought have the two filaments horizontal one above the other. I phoned every stockist I could find of APF bulbs but they all had the two horizontal filaments.
  Neither of the bulbs have a deflector inside the bulb just the filaments, I ended up taking the cheapest option and changed the headlight. I did try changing the orientation of the lens and the bulb itself but only ended up with a tall narrow beam which never really pointed where it should have.
Colin
Title: Re: LED headlamp lamps
Post by: Dean on 08.12. 2015 21:05
I've done extensive research since my last post (10 mns googling) and it seems we are all right. The dipped beam may be controlled by the lens or bulb or a combination of the two depending on manufacturer, technology, or era.
Title: Re: LED headlamp lamps
Post by: trevinoz on 09.12. 2015 20:53
But in the case of the British Pre Focus (BPF) it is solely the bulb which controls the dip direction.