The BSA A7-A10 Forum
Technical (Descriptive Topic Titles - Stay on Topic) => A7 & A10 Engine => Topic started by: MikeN on 05.04. 2009 19:17
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Ive just changed the oil on my S/Arm A10 for the 8th time since getting it on the road and ive decided its time I came up with a way of doing so without ending up ankle deep in oil.
Can anyone suggest a drill for draining the oil so it all ends up in the waste oil container and not on the floor and my feet.
Im sure you know what I mean,you pull the plug and it starts by shooting 2 foot outwards and then dribbles down the silencer while I try to catch some of it.
Mike
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I use a pump from a gallon size industrial washing up liquid dispenser. Put the suction part in the top of oil tank and then hand pump into waste bottle or other container. It also sucks up the sludge from the bottom of tank.
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JC Whitney and other discount auto places will sell you a little electric pump that does this same thing. Some you connect to a drill motor, some have alligator clips for 6 or 12 volts, some plug into the wall.
They'll suck all your oil out in a few seconds. Of course, to do a complete job of it you need to drain the sump too; I'm on soon for an SRM alloy sump with a drain plug like on my A65, keeps you from having to break that gasket seal every time you change oil; much less leaky.
Of course, if you get a certain amount of satisfaction from "make do and mend" solutions, salvaging a hand-pump from an old squirt bottle can be a way to go too.
Lannis
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Thanks for the suggestions.Any others?
I too, already have a (homemade) alloy sump plate with a removable magnet.Its always pleasing to see how little,metalic debris there is stuck to it when its pulled out to change the sump oil.
MN
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Mike... Try waving one of those telescopic magnets around in the bottom of the oil tank and see how much metal particles you pull out :o
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Mike... Try waving one of those telescopic magnets around in the bottom of the oil tank and see how much metal particles you pull out :o
Yes, but put some cling wrap or a plastic bag around the magnet or you'll never get the shavings off.
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What is the biggest contributor to ferrous shavings in our oil:
Cylinder walls?
Lifter surfaces?
Cam sufaces?
Pinions?
Journals?
or other hideous possibilities?
It is disturbing that there should be an expectation of loss from any of these on a worked-in engine. As one popular U.S. TV comentator says, "Can someone talk me down on this." Why should there be a continuous presence of ferrous particles in our sumps and oil tanks?
Richard L.
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I would say a lack of a decent oil filter if you rely on the standard BSA tea strainer.I have a alloy sump plate & magnetic plug but as I have a remote filter I also have no particles on sump plug when I change oil. Dave..
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Dave,
I'm rather sure you've said it here before, but if you don't mind saving me the search, which filter is it you use? Also, do you have an opinion on the source of the subject particles?
Richard L.
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Dave,
I'm rather sure you've said it here before, but if you don't mind saving me the search, which filter is it you use? Also, do you have an opinion on the source of the subject particles?
Richard L.
Well, if they don't accumulate on magnetic sump plugs when a filter is used, the only moving part of the engine between the sump is the return side of the pump. So, it must all be return gears and bottom blanking plate...
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Maybe I misinterpreted LJ. I took him to mean that the magnet would commonly bring up a lot. Re-reading, he might just be saying to make a test with the magnet, on the assumption that a healthy engine would yield little or no ferrous particulate.
Richar L.
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Re. Richard L's comment. I dont expect to see metalic debris on my sump magnet and fortunately I dont. The reason for this ,I believe, Is because I keep a service log and change my oil every 1000 miles.
I think most wear must occur when the oil is left in an engine for too long and is allowed to become contaminated with moisture and fuel .
I think that years ago when our bikes were just regarded as transport to many and not nesessarily owned by enthusiasts ,the servicing would not be as rigorous as it should have been.Oil might have been left in for too long resulting in wear.
Its quite satisfying pouring in a can of fresh oil , but to return to my original question ,my wife gets annoyed with me treading oil through the house when ive just drained the tank over my feet (again).
MN
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Every thing that wears in your engine has to go some where.
Only really 2 alternatives
In the pot & ( hopefully ) out the exhaust
In the sump.
If you have access to an X-ray difractometer and a centrifuge you can analyse your oil for for the presence of the individual alloys within the engine.
This is a bit different to the $ 50 send a sample to Shell and get a table of the totals of each metal ( done with flame chromotography ).
It is facinating to look at the results and corrilate them with actual wear of individual componants.
As the wear face of the cams ( for instance) go down it leaves a little ridge on each side which will eventually break off. The actual tips will break off the gears in the timing chest and that is 2 that came to mind without any conscious thought.
Bike Beesa
Trevor
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Trevor,
I had to let go of my X-ray difractometer and centrifuge to make room in the garage for building the motorcycle. Dang!
I would infer from your comments that the particulate is so small in size and quantity, that the magnet (dipped in the tank or living in the sump plug) should not show any, unless there was some sort of failure. Is that your experience?
Richard L.
P.S. I checked-out your website and am looking forward to some photos from the rallies. wish I could be there. Are you the artist?
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on the topic of the original question, I use a large (8-10 inch?) funnel and a big oil pan for draining a car. I lodge the funnel under the oil tank edge to catch the drips, and usually cram it in between the kicker arm and the frame (after kicking it thru without letting it fully return) the spring tension on the kicker return helps to hold it there (or throw it across the garage when I'm unlucky! ;))
it is typically angled with the top opening toward the bike a bit, so that catches the first spurt, then being under the edge keeps it off the silencer. pretty much a hack job, but it seems to work so far!
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Thanks Snowbeard.
To paraphrase Roy Scheider in "Jaws":
"I'm gonna need a bigger funnel!"
Mike.
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While the wear happens where parts actually rub they end up leaving little shoulders on either side, these break off to produce visible swarf as will little bits of threads. Hard faceing can come loose and flake off and the spigot on the bottom of the cylinders can crumble a little at the edges. Slightly larger bits can break off the bearing cages.
Then there is all the flotsum & jetsum that seems to be sucked into the engine every time you open it up. It is amazing just how long little bits of crud can take to eventually end up in the sump.
I had a cage let go at one time and despite having it apart several times including flushing out the cases a couple of times with a few gallons of kerrosene ( parrafin to some) rivets "magically" continued to appear in the sump for several years.
So a small amount of visible metal in the sump is not a big deal.
What you need to look out for is this volume of swarf stadily increasing which is a sure sign that something is likely to let go or has already gone and is slowly crumbleing away.
An A65 that had the main spin in the cases yielded enough metal to cover an Australian shilling ( about the same size as a US dime ) with every oil change and it did this for three years before I finally decided that I was pushing my luck too far and retired the bike .
A WDB40 that I owned had a cage on the big end roller break up and slowly fall out over a period of 18 months so the weekly oil changes contained a lot of visible metal although this engine did sound like a shaking can of bolts at low revs because the now uncaged rollers would bunch up at low speeds allowing nearly 1/8 " of free travel of the con rod , yet another of the same model did the same thing but this time the bits did not fall out and got hammer welded to the journal and it locked up solid in no time flat.
The 4 way oil filtering system that BSA designed was not an accident. The gauze in the sump will only pull out lumps of metal that are too big to travel through the scavenge side of the pump. The smaller bits get pumped back into the oil tank, but the outlet screen is 80% smaller than the scavenge screen so these bigger bits, which would damage the delivery side of the pump get trapped in the oil tank as designed. The finer still bits of crap get centrifuged out into the sludge trap and the metal particles in there are usually so small that you need a strong glass the see them.
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That is why all these listees who actually know how the system works make the effort to suck the crud that is below the outlet filter out of their oil tanks and you would be well advised to do the same.
The other thing that was not mentioned was when to change the oil.
The answer to this is immediatly you return form a long ride , not after 5 minutes warming the engine the night prior to the long ride. ( same applies double for chains unless you are going to take it off & do the job properly) .
Pop the bike on the stand then drop the oil straight away while it is hot and as much of the crud as possible is floating around in the oil tank. Ten minutes latter is too late unless you are going to do a suck it dry oil change as by that time all the fine bits that are heavier than the oil will have settled out to the bottom of the oil tank ( which is how it was designed to work) .
Now you know that your bike has 3 filters & a settleing tank you know how much creedance to give to all those wallies that wax lyrical about how BSA's do not have proper oil filtering and imply that the strainer is all that there is.
Having said that there is nothing wrong with fitting a spin on oil filter and in fact I recommend that every one considers doing so seriously but far more important is very regular changes of the oil particularly as we do not use our bikes very much and the oil ends up being contaminated with water & combustion acids long before it's change by mileage.
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Just in for a coffee and read BSA_54A10 mail above, couldn't agree more re the filter comments.
My plans to get so much done now I'm retired don't seems to be working, Garden takes priority today ( so I'm instructed ) might manage to sneek a coat or two of primer on the front brake though *whistle*
All the best - Bill