The BSA A7-A10 Forum

Technical => A7 & A10 Engine => Topic started by: Viking on 26.09. 2015 20:06

Title: Do the Ton.
Post by: Viking on 26.09. 2015 20:06
I have a 1958 A10SR with a RGS tunede engine, But I find it hard to "do the ton"
Hard to reach the Ton..

Engine rebuild in 1996. All re-done. SRM every thing. Incl. re boring of the to engine half.
Crank dyn. ball.

Engine tuned with: 1 3/16 monoblock ,
Cylinder head complet re-done by the cylinderhead shop with modern race valves.
Cylinder head: late type Big valve type.
Cam: spitfire scr. 357
Pistols, high comp.
New SRM cam followers
New rocker box parts....
Engine running a tad bit rich ( do not dare running to lean )
23T engine sprocket.
Std. Solo gearbox sprocket.
Running with octan 95...
Automatic advance unit
Magneto ignition
SAE 40 oil
19" wheel, with 3.25 front, 3.50 rear. Mitas tyres.
Silencers: SR twin.

Engine run like a "bat out of hell"
Power full and strong

But reaching the Ton, is a hard struggle.

What does it need to reach the Ton with ease ?
Title: Re: Do the Ton.
Post by: edboy on 26.09. 2015 21:27
hi viking, i would suggest either a little clutch slip at high revs or your main jet is slightly wrong. you need a rev counter for the clutch to check its doing its job and the factory settings for your carb main jet. if your magneto has different cylinder timing you can easily seize or hole the piston which will overheat. my tribsa was on song and going beautifully at high speed moments before i last holed a piston and its a real pain to strip it all down again. my first a10 habitually seized on the left cylinder as i always timed the right one, so check your mag timing on both cylinders or like some of us keep the speed down.
Title: Re: Do the Ton.
Post by: Triton Thrasher on 26.09. 2015 21:44
How fast will it go in third gear?
Title: Re: Do the Ton.
Post by: duTch on 26.09. 2015 23:45
 
Quote
How fast will it go in third gear?

 When I had my RR, was told a few times by older guys they went faster in third- wasn't game to try it out on mine tho'

 Top gear must be too tall for the power; I think there was a logical explanation here a while ago *conf*
Title: Re: Do the Ton.
Post by: WozzA on 27.09. 2015 00:04
Have you tried checking your speedo with a GPS..     *doh*
Title: Re: Do the Ton.
Post by: bikerbob on 27.09. 2015 08:38
I notice that you have a 23 tooth engine sprocket which is correct for 1962 RGS but in 1963 it reduced to a 22 tooth engine sprocket it could be that you are slightly over geared in top. If you have too high an engine sprocket it is possible to go faster in third than in top. Also are your other sprockets correct clutch  43 gearbox 19 rear 42 all these could have a bearing on top speed.
Title: Re: Do the Ton.
Post by: muskrat on 27.09. 2015 09:11
I have even higher gearing 23-43-19-40 on my cafe. The motor is very tuned. On a flat road with no head wind I take her to 85 in 3rd so it only just drops off the cam (357) changing to 4th. It might take 1/2 mile to reach 120.
Cheers
Title: Re: Do the Ton.
Post by: RichardL on 27.09. 2015 16:00

What does it need to reach the Ton with ease ?

I suggest finding a long straight piece of road where you can look out into the distance at a spot along that road that appears to be well below your position. Run your speed trial by pointing your bike in the direction of that spot while applying all available throttle.  *smile* ;) *whistle* >:D

Richard L.
Title: Re: Do the Ton.
Post by: Rocket Racer on 27.09. 2015 22:58
I'd concur with over gearing as the likely culprit. But likewise for top end you should have the mainjet right
Do you run a tacho and if so what rev's are you pulling at whatever you are topping out at?


Title: Re: Do the Ton.
Post by: bsa-bill on 28.09. 2015 09:09
on a standard but very good Flash - in my youth I think I did the ton, I think I did 94 in third, I think on both occasions my fleeting glance at the speedo needle would have been in nano seconds and it may well have been at the upper end of the needles oscillations, nevertheless if I could have afforded one I'd of bought a white silk scarf.
Seriously I was quite surprised at the speed in third, and frustrated at the length of road needed to achieve the same in top.
I thought the speed in third came at the cost of a bent pushrod, it may have been bent before that tho, always wondered why it bent and why only one
Title: Re: Do the Ton.
Post by: Ted_Flash on 28.09. 2015 14:29
In 1951 The Motor Cycle got a one-way best speed of 102.75 mph at MIRA (104.5 with the air filter off).  And this was with 6.5:1 dished pistons and a 334 camshaft.

I presume it was achievable due to the combined effects of a) a brand new motor and b) it belongs to somebody else i.e. the factory.
Title: Re: Do the Ton.
Post by: Viking on 28.09. 2015 15:03
The engine is in super condition.

I changed the engine sprocket from 19T, using the bike to pull a Watsonian Monaco side car,
and changed it to solo with a 21T.
The engine was too low geared for high way cruising and uncomfortable at 50 mph.
It was like I could only use 1st and 4th gear.   2nd and 3rd was newer used.

This year I changed the engine sprocket from 21 to 23T
Nice. Much more compatible at 50 mph.
To gain more speed, I change down to 3rd at 50 mph. and keep it in 3rd until 70 mph +
The 357 cam like revs. and have a kind of flat spot between 45-60 mph.
I can keep it in 3rd, but as posted before, the gearbox have a tendency to jump out of 3rd if pushed hard.
Try to do 80-90mph in 3rd is not possible, for the time being.
The gearbox will be send to SRM this winter for a rebuild.

But the bike should be able to reach the Ton. Why is that important ?
If it can´t do the Ton, it ain't a Ton up Bike !

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYvJVyXNZKc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vmzvlHrTCs

If it can´t do the Ton, you might just as well ride a Scooter…….= RIP.
Title: Re: Do the Ton.
Post by: morris on 28.09. 2015 22:04
on a standard but very good Flash - in my youth I think I did the ton

I think one not insignificant fact overlooked in this discussion is the weight of the rider... *whistle*
Title: Re: Do the Ton.
Post by: Rocket Racer on 28.09. 2015 22:25
Excepting the arguments about rider weight  ;) , this recent  *whistle* magazine article covers it nicely
Title: Re: Do the Ton.
Post by: Triton Thrasher on 28.09. 2015 22:26
Don't attempt high speed on some heap that jumps out of gear.

To do its maximum speed, a bike has to be geared so that peak power rpm occurs at maximum speed.

If it revs past peak rpm in top, it's undergeared.  If it won't reach peak rpm in top, it's overgeared.

If you don't know where peak power occurs, or have no rev counter, good luck.
Title: Re: Do the Ton.
Post by: Triton Thrasher on 28.09. 2015 22:41
Excepting the arguments about rider weight  ;) , this recent  *whistle* magazine article covers it nicely

It's three years old and it will just about do 100 mph, they claim.
Title: Re: Do the Ton.
Post by: Rocket Racer on 28.09. 2015 23:10
cowhorn bars and a belstaff are hardly aerodynamic. I'd expect to have the rider on the tank for ton plus on a 40 horse motorcycle.
They said 102 comfortably, but was that just the speedo reading  *dunno*
I'd certainly expect a reasonably geared A10 (without a sidecar  *sad2* ) to reach the ton if in reasonable tune.
But agree, with a box that won't hold 3rd, and revs unknown, top speed is fairly redundant
My sidecars actually quite mildly tuned and happily pulls to its geared ceiling of 90 with two lardy blokes on it and no streamlining.
Title: Re: Do the Ton.
Post by: Rocket Racer on 29.09. 2015 00:27
Coming back to gearing; if you take your sprockets (in Muskies case 23/43 and 19/40), multiply that by your revs (say 6500) you get rear wheel revs per minute, so multiply by 60 to get wheel revolutions per hour and multiply by your rear wheel circumference (say 2.04 metres - tyres can differ quite a lot)and divided by 1000 to give us kilometres not metres; then we come up with 6500rpm equates to 202 kph or 126mph. Fairly tall gearing...
If we do the maths backwards from 160kph (approx the ton), with that wheel circumference and sprockets  we're only pulling 5145rpm which I suspect will need a light prone rider, a decent fairing or a tailwind to get to the ton but will do 90 all day

I recently read a period article on the A75 outlining that while the bikes could genuinely pull 130mph our American cousins preferred to gear them for redline at the ton as the mid range acceleration was spectacular. In most cases for road bikes gearing is set for comfort at best touring speeds rather than being able to hit 105 with the engine hard on the redline.

Title: Re: Do the Ton.
Post by: RichardL on 29.09. 2015 01:58
Four reasons I won't be attempting the ton any time soon:

1. I built it.
2. I would be the one repairing it.
3. I would be the one paying.
4.  250 lb. Payload.

By the way, should it even be called "The Ton" if it's not in MPH? For some things you just have to forget metric elitism.

Richard L.
Title: Re: Do the Ton.
Post by: Rocket Racer on 29.09. 2015 02:25
In pre motorway UK or for that matter here, on rubbish roads and with limited suspension, the ton was a bit of a holy grail for bragging if you lived... but these days with modern cycles, even (200kph) 120mph is pretty ho hum. Modern bikes on the IOM doing over 300kph. You dont ride a fifties or sixties pommie bike for its performance.

Over here the police love it if they can have some customer interaction with any motorists travelling more than 110kph , so practically on the road here all I want is to sit on 70 mph.
For a track day though... I'd be lowering my gearing for the red line and some red mist...

Nothing wrong with pedaling an old un out to the red line and waking a few car alarms though...
Title: Re: Do the Ton.
Post by: bsa-bill on 29.09. 2015 09:58
Quote
By the way, should it even be called "The Ton" if it's not in MPH?

Ah but it is Richard the ton = 100 mph  in metric 100 kph I think is around 60 mph hardly much to boast about
Title: Re: Do the Ton.
Post by: RichardL on 29.09. 2015 13:44
Right. I was bemoaning the temptation to convert the fabled "Ton" (100 MPH) to metric (approx. 160 kph) where it loses its aura.
Title: Re: Do the Ton.
Post by: worntorn on 29.09. 2015 14:57
I have a 1958 A10SR with a RGS tunede engine, But I find it hard to "do the ton"
Hard to reach the Ton..

Engine rebuild in 1996. All re-done. SRM every thing. Incl. re boring of the to engine half.
Crank dyn. ball.

Engine tuned with: 1 3/16 monoblock ,
Cylinder head complet re-done by the cylinderhead shop with modern race valves.
Cylinder head: late type Big valve type.
Cam: spitfire scr. 357
Pistols, high comp.
New SRM cam followers
New rocker box parts....
Engine running a tad bit rich ( do not dare running to lean )
23T engine sprocket.
Std. Solo gearbox sprocket.
Running with octan 95...
Automatic advance unit
Magneto ignition
SAE 40 oil
19" wheel, with 3.25 front, 3.50 rear. Mitas tyres.
Silencers: SR twin.

Engine run like a "bat out of hell"
Power full and strong

But reaching the Ton, is a hard struggle.

What does it need to reach the Ton with ease ?

You mentioned in another thread that this bike has a 21 tooth gearbox sprocket in place. If this is so it is severely overgeared as standard for the SR is 19 tooth on gearbox and 21 on the engine. If both your gearbox and engine sprockets are 2 teeth more than standard gearing, then it likely would be too much for the bike to pull. Whether the bike has some hotrod parts on it or not won't make much difference, it is only 650 CC s of old design pushrod engine.
When I changed the engine sprocket on my SR to 23 teeth ( but gearbox still at 19) the top speed dropped a few MPH, but the relaxed relatively smooth running at highway speeds is nice. The reduced amount of acceleration isn't.
I'm thinking of changing it back to standard gearing.
Also, relative bike to bike top speed numbers with the Smiths speedometers don't mean much. The speedometers as fitted on old British bikes tend to read optimistically high , some more than others.
Trevor made me aware that the cable ratio on my speedo was wrong. It is a 1650 whereas a 1450 or thereabouts is correct. It turns out that a 1450 reads  high by about the same amount as a 1650 reads low. I mounted a 1550 ratio speed on there and it is bang on with the GPS.
I'm sure BSA deliberately fitted speedos which gave a nice high number as did the other manufacturers. Most magazine articles of the day used these optimistic speedo numbers in their reviews. We read them and dreamt of owning a bike that could so easily top the ton. Now we are old and maybe not so skinny but finally have the money for the bike, but it's not quite as fast as the magazine article said, especially if you fit a GPS!


Glen
Title: Re: Do the Ton.
Post by: edboy on 29.09. 2015 18:11
how is the scratching going viking?
maximum revs for high speed running is 7,000 - 7,250 rpm and an alloy head model should reach 100mph with tall gearing eventually. originally there was no traffic lights after london until  brighton and the problem now is stop start and a more revvy enging is preferable. i ve found on my triumph that the main jet if spot on makes a great difference.your engine will run hot but main jet factory settings i have found are spot on and would be my first hurdle.
Title: Re: Do the Ton.
Post by: paulmbsa on 29.09. 2015 21:22
you wouldnt ask your gran to do a cartwheel so why ask your bike
Title: Re: Do the Ton.
Post by: Viking on 29.09. 2015 21:51
The bike is in fine mechanical shape... Few bikers I know, has spent the same amount, and att. to details, as I have.

Yes 3.gear jumping is an issue now, it will be addressed this Winther. I will enjoy good days in October to end an active 2015 BSA SR season. 

Is the Ton so important ? No...

A UK Ton up bike can't hold this speed for hours anyway...

For us on main land EU , km/h is more important , especially 200 km/h , was is the Magic limit in the 70ties

But the SR was "Born" for UK use and was on "the Island" until year 2000, when I moved from the UK to Denmark.
So the odometer is still in MPH and the Ton is the Magic number.

It is running non stressed 80-90 MPH , from there is takes time.....
 
The weight is an issue: helmet, safety gear etc., and belly after bacon and beans in the UK all has an effect :-)
Title: Re: Do the Ton.
Post by: RichardL on 30.09. 2015 03:58
You have to give up on metric. Metric is dead. It was given a fair chance but has clearly lost out to the inch, foot, yard, furlong, mile and league (oh, and let's not leave out the cubit)

Richard L.
Title: Re: Do the Ton.
Post by: Rocket Racer on 30.09. 2015 05:20
You have to give up on metric. Metric is dead. It was given a fair chance but has clearly lost out to the inch, foot, yard, furlong, mile and league (oh, and let's not leave out the cubit)

Richard L.

Earlier this year my daughter sat her driving test in her 1964 Mk1 mini with the big speedo in the middle; the instructor had to ask her several times what speeds her MPH speedo equated to as all our speed limits are in KPH and she was passing through various speed limits during her test... He had no clue  *grins*
Title: Re: Do the Ton.
Post by: groily on 30.09. 2015 08:38
Nice one Richard!
But you can eat up the 'miles' satisfyingly fast when the road signs give distances in kilometres  . . .
I've come to like metric over the years - it has the merit of simplicity for those of us born with ten digits at both ends.
Title: Re: Do the Ton.
Post by: cyclobutch on 30.09. 2015 09:23
I think that was a significant balls up in a recent (ish) adjustment to one of the motorcycle license tests in the UK. Rules were adopted from Europe and we ended up with a requirement to emergency stop from 50 kph rather than 30 mph. That 50 being higher that our suburban permitted 30 mph (it's just over 31 I think) meant that it all had to be done off road at specialised test centres ... which still had to be built and were always going to be few and far between.   
Title: Re: Do the Ton.
Post by: Viking on 30.09. 2015 11:26
Imperial measures, and system, is as dead as the British motorcycle and car industry…
(still a little bit in use, but is struggling and grinding to a hold over time).

The problem with the imperial measurement system, is the lack of an easy link between length, volume, weight etc.
Try to build a container in imperial measurement, calculate the volume, fill it with water and calculate the weight. Hurrah….
Try to ad size together 3/16”+15/32”+11/64”+1 ¾”+1´5 ¾”  =  ? 
Or add: 3mm + 3,2mm +1,3 m. dead easy = 1306,20    you can do that with ease…

The mad issue arise from the lack of a 10 decade link in the Imperial system:
1 foot = 12 inch   3 foot = 1 yard   1 Mile = 1760 yard or 1 Gallon = 277,4196 cubic inch. 
Changing from gallon/min. to yard3/min.   of inch3/min.  "Bon appetit"”
Oh my god a quirky and odd system

And when it comes to energy the matter is screaming mad.

BTU, HP and various other odd measurement.   And imperial torque   

The only reason the TON is interesting, is that the old bikes can´t do 200 km/h.


Do I hate imperial measurements ?

No it is ok as an historic system, grow together from ancients logic. It is good to know.
Is it a system for the future ? No
It will fade out after 3-4 more generations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_units


Metric system:   A logic system bound together with 10 decades. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metric_system

The metric system has few odd things, like seconds is a system with 60 units and degrees is pi/180 rad.
Title: Re: Do the Ton.
Post by: RichardL on 30.09. 2015 11:54
Thanks for the explanation. All the things you've mentioned are very good points. NOW, will you agree that metric is dead?  I will add my new knowledge about the metric system as text at the bottom of my engineering degree. *smile*

So, I guess you want the "METRIC TONNE" for 160.9 kph. Heard at the bar: "Welcome to the Metric Tonne-Up Club mate."

Oh, we need to add three days to the week: Richardsday, Beezerday and Spannerday.

Metric system:   A logic system bound together with 10 decades. 
Imperial system: A logic system bound together by 5000 years.


Richard L.
Title: Re: Do the Ton.
Post by: Viking on 30.09. 2015 14:12
Metric system: A logic system bound together with 10 decades. Designed by engineers to make the world efficient, easy and  for the use of easy to ordinary people.

Imperial system: A system designed by weird farmers and wild men with buckets, thumbs and odd feet, to please a feudal society, and to keep knowledge away from the ordinary man.

A medieval system designed to be as difficult as possible, and to keep the logic away from ordinary people and users.
 
 “Imperial system: A logic system bound together by 5000 years.”    Where is the logic ?

5000 years ago in Europe we paddled around in hollowed out tree logs. We do not do that anymore  *beer*

We progress, develop, eradicates and move away from stone age technology, and use a modern and efficient measurement systems… called the Metric system, and use SI units…for engineering…


Title: Re: Do the Ton.
Post by: WozzA on 30.09. 2015 14:24
While we're off subject, sorry e  *pull hair out*  anyone know what this measure is?
Title: Re: Do the Ton.
Post by: worntorn on 30.09. 2015 14:45
So Viking, is it a 21 tooth or a 19 tooth sprocket that you have on the gearbox?  You mentioned in another thread that it was a 21 tooth but in this thread you mentioned that it is a stock gearbox sprocket. Stock is 19 for the SR.  This could be your problem if both the engine and gearbox sprockets are oversized.

Glen
Title: Re: Do the Ton.
Post by: RichardL on 30.09. 2015 15:02
Viking,

ROFL *lol*

To appease the metric gods, I believe all the streets in London and Paris should be bulldozed and revised to occur in squares that are 100 meters per side.

Wozza,

Maybe, fathometer? If Viking's ancestors had tried to use this with the metric system they would have run aground and never reached North America.

Worntorn,

How dare you address the original subject?



Richard L.
Title: Re: Do the Ton.
Post by: Greybeard on 30.09. 2015 15:24
While we're off subject, sorry e  *pull hair out*  anyone know what this measure is?

When I moved into BTs Planning Office there was a set of those chains, (that is what the length is called; a 'Chain') in the store cupboard. They were no longer being used.

The Chain survives as the length of a cricket pitch, being the distance between the stumps.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chain_%28unit%29
Title: Re: Do the Ton.
Post by: Greybeard on 30.09. 2015 15:35
5000 years ago in Europe we paddled around in hollowed out tree logs.
And rode BSA's  >:D
Title: Re: Do the Ton.
Post by: Sandy on 30.09. 2015 16:31
Re all the stuff about metric being God's own gift etc. When I were a lad and gainfully engaged in the Standards Room Inspection Dept of a major automotive parts company, we had the job of overseeing the changeover from Imperial to Metric measurement. I well remember the British Standards release on the subject that declared "In Enginering the unit of measurement will be the millimetre"i.e  there will, in engineering be no metres, centimetres, decimetres, kilometres and all the rest of them. This  is fine if you are making, as we were, disc brake calipers, but if you're building 200,000 ton supertankers.......? (Where d'ya say the decimal point went again?) Manageable numbers, anybody?
Title: Re: Do the Ton.
Post by: bsa-bill on 30.09. 2015 17:14
If god had intended us to use a base of ten it would not have been the length of a man's ARM that became a cubit
work that one out big boy *whistle*
Title: Re: Do the Ton.
Post by: groily on 30.09. 2015 17:33
 "1 Gallon = 277,4196 cubic inch" 
Would that be a gallon of 8 Proper English Beers or a short American one, Viking? 160 or 128 fl oz even (whatever one of those weighs, in water or anything else)?
Quirky indeed - but there are those who will insist on staying on their Perch or up their Pole - perhaps to argue the true definition of a Gill!
Title: Re: Do the Ton.
Post by: cyclobutch on 30.09. 2015 17:39
While we're off subject, sorry e  *pull hair out*  anyone know what this measure is?

I think it's known as a shitload.

From all aspects the descriptions of the Imperial system seem enormously attractive to me. Sadly, and with apologies, I prefer working on Metric bikes. As ever - 'I'll get me coat'.
Title: Re: Do the Ton.
Post by: RichardL on 30.09. 2015 19:54
What does this have to do with motorcycles?
Title: Re: Do the Ton.
Post by: East_Coast_BSA on 30.09. 2015 19:55
Sorry to get back on the subject, but when I feel the need to "Do the Ton" I jump on my 900 Ninja.  If anyone ever asked, I'd lie and tell them that I've done it and leave it at that.  Personally I see it as "Everything to Lose and Nothing to Gain Proposition" by wringing it out.  Riding it can be an adventure at half that speed (on most of the roads around here). 
Title: Re: Do the Ton.
Post by: nimrod650 on 30.09. 2015 20:10
buy a fireblade or fit  an indian speedo if you reach the ton think about the bean can brakes
Title: Re: Do the Ton.
Post by: morris on 30.09. 2015 22:09
What does this have to do with motorcycles?

All about being queer Richard... ;D
Title: Re: Do the Ton.
Post by: WozzA on 30.09. 2015 23:45
While we're off subject, sorry e  *pull hair out*  anyone know what this measure is?

When I moved into BTs Planning Office there was a set of those chains, (that is what the length is called; a 'Chain') in the store cupboard. They were no longer being used.

The Chain survives as the length of a cricket pitch, being the distance between the stumps.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chain_%28unit%29

Well done Greybeard...  *yeah* actually it's called a Gunter's chain... with 100 links.. = 22 yards = 66 feet...  10 chains to a Furlong...
enough of this foolery...   back on subject...   *whistle*
Title: Re: Do the Ton.
Post by: RichardL on 01.10. 2015 00:08
What does this have to do with motorcycles?

All about being queer Richard... ;D

I'm not judging (or winking, in this case, even if it would be the correct emoticon).

Richard L.
Title: Re: Do the Ton.
Post by: Rocket Racer on 01.10. 2015 00:30
http://www.astrodigital.org/space/stshorse.html (http://www.astrodigital.org/space/stshorse.html)

brings to mind the reason the spaceshuttle was based on the size of a horses idiot...
Title: Re: Do the Ton.
Post by: worntorn on 01.10. 2015 01:53
If god had intended us to use a base of ten it would not have been the length of a man's ARM that became a cubit
work that one out big boy *whistle*

The ten fingers and ten toes were supposed to be big hints of how we should develop of measuring system, but man being the screw up he is, went stomping around using his foot to measure everything.

Still doing that in undeveloped parts of th world *smile*

Glen
Title: Re: Do the Ton.
Post by: WozzA on 01.10. 2015 02:25
 Some women accuse SOME men of over exaggerate the length of OTHER body parts. ::hh::
thus the metric system was invented by a woman  ..      *whistle*
Title: Re: Do the Ton.
Post by: duTch on 01.10. 2015 10:22

 
Quote
If god had intended us to use a base of ten it would not have been the length of a man's ARM that became a cubit
work that one out big boy *whistle*

 ^^^...
Noah..I WANT YOU TO BUILD AN ARK......!!
 noah...riiigght...
noah; waht's an ark...??......^^^..."an ark is;- oh never mind..." ....
^^^I want you to build it ***cubits, by *** cubits, by *** cubits...>noah;- what's a cubit...????...and so on ...Bill Cosby..!

   Ok, I thought Wozzas pic was something to do with Knots...if I recall, a link of a chain is about eight inches (that's a hell chain), and I haven't researched that;- next thing we need to get straight is: a "METER", is an instrument or device for MEASURING increments of stuff....
 a "METRE", is a measure of distance.... *ex* *ex* *ex*...OK..and I'll be back when I remember why I'm here *conf*

Title: Re: Do the Ton.
Post by: Colsbeeza on 01.10. 2015 12:22
I think some blokes are getting just too technical.!
This song is what the Ton is all about - Mike Sarne's "Just for Kicks".
Who gives a toss about metric.
Back in 1960 when the Ton was almost unobtainable, it was every decent Rockers only aim in life.!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBm_Sc4buY0

Cheers
Colsbeeza
Title: Re: Do the Ton.
Post by: RichardL on 01.10. 2015 12:52
Dutch,

I knew immediately what you were quoting. Sad how Cosby could be so funny while being a sh*thead.

Colsbeeza,

His "bird" must have been a parakeet if doing the Ton on a period British bike. (Maybe, a Vincent Black Shadow?)

Richard L.
Title: Re: Do the Ton.
Post by: cyclobutch on 01.10. 2015 12:54
So the old Rocker gets out his bike
to make a ton before he takes his leave.
Up on the A1 by Scotch Corner
just like it used to be.
And as he flies --- tears in his eyes ---
his wind-whipped words echo the final take
and he hits the trunk road doing around 120
with no room left to brake.


I don't think that metric could do that justice.
Title: Re: Do the Ton.
Post by: edboy on 02.10. 2015 16:16
i ve no room left to brake at 40mph let alone 120mph. thats what keeps my speed down.
however i have been reading old roadtests  and the 1958 was good for 109mph and the 500cc shooting star top speed 93mph . the rocket on test was probably fitted with a tt9 carb rather than monobloc and 9-1 pistons.also running 100 octane fuel but 98 is available so shouldnt make much difference.
Title: Re: Do the Ton.
Post by: duTch on 02.10. 2015 20:15

 
Quote
(Maybe, a Vincent Black Shadow?)
......or a Black Lightning  *smile*

 
Quote
"1 Gallon = 277,4196 cubic inch"
Would that be a gallon of 8 Proper English Beers or a short American one, Viking? 160 or 128 fl oz even (whatever one of those weighs, in water or anything else)?

 Well the Poms had a go at metricating (before modern metric) in the 1820's (if i recall...), when they changed the gallon to weigh ten pounds instead of eight...16oz's = 1 pound, but to still retain 8 pints per gallon- that's why a New Imperial pint is 20 oz's and a U.S. pint is 16 oz's- they didn't change *conf*.....but it gets more complicated with quarts, as if I recall again, the Scots, French and Canadians have slightly different versions, same as the Canadian fluid oz's also vary slightly when converted to metric (apparently)

Title: Re: Do the Ton.
Post by: RichardL on 02.10. 2015 21:18
Dutch,

This raises two questions from me:

1. How old were you in the 1820s?
2. Am I being shortchanged 4 oz. when I order a pint of beer here in the U.S.? ...or should I just order a gallon?

Richard L.
Title: Re: Do the Ton.
Post by: duTch on 04.10. 2015 09:24

 Answer(1)...almost 200years older than I am now *eek*
 Answer (2)...sorry, but yes; maybe some incentive to catch up at least one step *smile*
 When I first saw wozzas piccie, I thought it was a knot. .. *conf*
  And I meant to add this before my previous post..
Quote
The problem with the imperial measurement system, is the lack of an easy link between length, volume, weight etc.
Try to build a container in imperial measurement, calculate the volume, fill it with water and calculate the weight. Hurrah….
Try to ad size together 3/16”+15/32”+11/64”+1 ¾”+1´5 ¾”  =  ?  
...

 6,1/4 gallons in one cubic foot of water (if I recall )=should be 62.25lbs.... Not that hard. .. *eek*
 When I went to school we had these things called "common denominators"...For doing fractions.
 Metric is good for most things but I still use imperial for some things- like calculating size of a water tank in gallons...
Title: Re: Do the Ton.
Post by: Viking on 04.10. 2015 20:12
The ease of the metric system is hard to beat.
Like one liter of water is 1 kg. (At room temperature)
One ton of water is 1000 kg or 1000 liter or 1m3

Adding meter, parts of meters like "µ" meter, cm, mm, km together is so easy that even a child
can do it.
Understanding that water freeze at 0°C and boils at 100°C .... Everybody can remember...

I lived in the UK for some years, and talking with palls about weight and lengths, and the combination between the two Units. They were completely lost when it came to imperial measures and units....

It is not easy for a nation to change from imperial to metric, it takes time, but over one or two generations the UK is full metric....

The majority of engineering parts is sold in metric measurements, meat and dairy produce is sold in the metric measure system IN THE UK today..
Carpets is sold in m2 , fuel is sold in liters, water is sold in m3, Energy is sold in kWh ect. In the UK
The UK is going metric. (And Eire for that matter)...

But we (and I) still like our BSA in Imperial measurement...

19" rims, 7/8 handlebar, 3 or 4 gall fuel tank. Possible to do the Ton :-) , not 200 km/h
:-)

That is part of BSA being a long gone historic brand.

Like Imperial measurements is part of a soon gone historic system.... Like it not. That is the way
things are moving....

Impossible one generation ago, reality for the generation growing up now, in England...



Could be the "dude" or youth in the tune was on about the bike doing close to 200 km/h (120 mph)

The geezer was metric, just not knowing it. :-)

With nice pics. :

http://youtu.be/l3TVEH1DPbg


PS. Will I change my BSA odometer from miles to km/h. .?. Never...
It was born in Birmingham with Miles on the clock, and it will stay that way...as an historic thing of the past.

It will fight to do the Ton to the end of time. ( it will newer reach 200 km/h anyway ).
MY old trusty Imperial bike, made of iron, by men of steel...
Title: Re: Do the Ton.
Post by: duTch on 04.10. 2015 22:01
Quote
next thing we need to get straight is: a "METER", is an instrument or device for MEASURING increments of stuff....
 a "METRE", is a measure of distance.... *ex* *ex* *ex*...OK.

 Same goes for "Litre" ok?...I don't know what a 'Liter' is; maybe something for burning stuff *conf*..or not as heavy  *dunno2*
Title: Re: Do the Ton.
Post by: East_Coast_BSA on 05.10. 2015 03:54
Quote
next thing we need to get straight is: a "METER", is an instrument or device for MEASURING increments of stuff....
 a "METRE", is a measure of distance.... *ex* *ex* *ex*...OK.

 Same goes for "Litre" ok?...I don't know what a 'Liter' is; maybe something for burning stuff *conf*..or not as heavy  *dunno2*

I use a "Liter" to start the charcoal grill.  Sounds reasonable to me.
Title: Re: Do the Ton.
Post by: Viking on 05.10. 2015 08:12
The unit Foot

Historically the "foot" was a part of many local systems of units, including the Greek, Roman, Chinese, French, and English systems. It varied in length from country to country, from city to city, and sometimes from trade to trade. Its length was usually between 250 mm and 335 mm and was generally, but not always, subdivided into 12 inches or 16 digits.

The United States is the only industrialized nation that uses the international foot and the survey foot (a customary unit of length) in preference to the meter in its commercial, engineering, and standards activities

The problem with this unit, is it different lengths in various parts of the word:¨

1 Russian foot (English foot, borrowed from Peter the Great) = 12 inches = 1/7 Russian sazhen = 0.3047 m.
1 French foot (pied du roi) = 12 pouces = 0.32484 m.
1 Amsterdam foot( voet) = 0.2831 m.
1 Rotterdam foot = 0.296 m.
1 Venetian foot = 0.34773 m.
1 Danish foot (after 1835) = 0.3138535 m.
1 Norwegian foot (after 1824) = 0.31375 m.
1 Swedish foot = 12 inches (tum) = 0.2969 m.
1 Portuguese foot = 0.3285 m.
1 Spanish foot (-1752) (Pie de Ribera/de Rey) = 12 Pulgadas = 0.287342 m.
1 Spanish foot (1752 -1765) (Pie de Burgos/Castellano) = 0.278635 m.
1 Spanish foot (1765-) (Pie de Rey) = 12 Pulgadas = 0.32483 m.
1 Greek foot - 0,3205 m (192,3 m = 600 Greek foot).
600 Greek feet was the lengths of the Olympic stadium (in Olympia: 192,3 m)

It makes the world a lot more easy when measurements is not a fixed units.  
Countries which have officially adopted the metric system: The entire world, except:
Countries which have not officially adopted the metric system (United States, Burma and Liberia)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metric_system


Umm nice liga: United States, Burma and Liberia
Title: Re: Do the Ton.
Post by: Greybeard on 05.10. 2015 10:09
It is not easy for a nation to change from imperial to metric, it takes time, but over one or two generations the UK is full metric....

UK went to metric money 34 years ago; I've never understood why we haven't metricated road speed in all of that time; by now it would be the norm.

Being old school does have advantages though: When I'm DIY'ing I just use the side of my tape, (tape measures here have metric and imperial) that most nearly matches a length; so I may measure a piece of wood at 12 inches and the next bit at 104mm. Then again, I may just make a mark on the edge of my handsaw; or even use a handy piece of string!

BTW: Don't you think this discussion should be moved to its own topic?
Title: Re: Do the Ton.
Post by: bsa-bill on 05.10. 2015 10:56
Quote
BTW: Don't you think this discussion should be moved to its own topic?

would that be from do the ton to do the tonne *smiley4*
Title: Re: Do the Ton.
Post by: Viking on 05.10. 2015 14:05
You can say what you want.
You are all Metric, Geezers Congratulation 

Except for our Yank members.....

So you better get ready to do the 200
(200 km/h)

A bit “wild” on an old plunger bike.
But possible on af RGS  :-)
Title: Re: Do the Ton.
Post by: RichardL on 05.10. 2015 14:53
The fact is, the UK still uses a mixup of imperial and metric and I reckon that is true of numerous countries including the US (slowly).

If the "Ton" becomes 200 kph I guess it would be fair to say "Metric kills".

For now, and probably the rest of the time I have left, I'm sticking with Imperial except when necessary. That way, I feel I can stand on my own two 30.48 centimetres.

Richard L.
Title: Re: Do the Ton.
Post by: duTch on 06.10. 2015 00:02

 
Quote
That way, I feel I can stand on my own two 30.48 centimetres.
Even that gets tricky when buying a pair of imported boots..UK/US/Urow *smile*
Title: Re: Do the Ton.
Post by: Viking on 06.10. 2015 13:56
Do the Ton was a big ting 50 years ago.

Today a bike is not a propper bike, if it can´t do the "1/4"

(The 1/4 is a 1/4 K = 250 km/h)

PS. what is KPH  ?   
A pub ?
http://thekph.com/

In 1988 the United States National Highway Traffic Safety Administration promulgated a rule stating that "MPH and/or km/h" were to be used in speedometer displays. On May 15, 2000 this was clarified to read "MPH, or MPH and km/h


So I don´t know what KPH is  *smile*

It cruising the Ton all day long is a must, buy a new Triumph Throxton

And spare the Historic BSA from the Torture
Evan the late Norton Comm. “Cuffed up blood” if pushed to do the Ton+ all day long on the “autobahn”
Title: Re: Do the Ton.
Post by: RichardL on 06.10. 2015 14:14
See, metric IS dead.

(OK, thanks for the correction. Bear in mind that I don't spend all my driving staring into a km/h speedo, including, of course, on my A10.

Richard L.
Title: Re: Do the Ton.
Post by: Viking on 06.10. 2015 14:24
I drive my BSA all day long with the imperial units on the odo.

I can easy obey the speed limits.

50 In urban arears 

80 on the open roads  

That is what the signs says, and the speedo reads   *smile*
Title: Re: Do the Ton.
Post by: hdawson on 06.03. 2016 05:33
Sept 1999 .
(CNN) -- NASA lost a $125 million Mars orbiter because a Lockheed Martin engineering team used English units of measurement while the agency's team used the more conventional metric system for a key spacecraft operation, according to a review finding released Thursday.

The units mismatch prevented navigation information from transferring between the Mars Climate Orbiter spacecraft team in at Lockheed Martin in Denver and the flight team at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, California.

Lockheed Martin helped build, develop and operate the spacecraft for NASA. Its engineers provided navigation commands for Climate Orbiter's thrusters in English units although NASA has been using the metric system predominantly since at least 1990.

Oops!

 I reckon it was doing about 300 Ton when it shot past Mars...

The older I get I appreciate that I survived those good old (fast) days.
Title: Re: Do the Ton.
Post by: bsa-bill on 06.03. 2016 09:57
considering motorcycle manufacturers and other auto makers used inches for wheels and MM for cylinder bores from way back, mixing the two systems is not that problematic.
UK adoption of the metric system was quite easy I thought, and a hell of a lot easier to calculate with.
Just the thought that it was old Bonaparte who gets the credit will still wrankle some.
Title: Re: Do the Ton.
Post by: muskrat on 06.03. 2016 19:41
Did the Ton yesterday on the cafe. Still had about 1000rpm to go. Gee it felt good.
Unfortunately I can't ride her far anymore (100 miles max) since the 3 vertebra fusion and now the hip is giving way.
Cheers
Title: Re: Do the Ton.
Post by: Greybeard on 06.03. 2016 19:46
Unfortunately I can't ride her far anymore (100 miles max) since the 3 vertebra fusion and now the hip is giving way.
That's a bloody shame!
Title: Re: Do the Ton.
Post by: RichardL on 06.03. 2016 19:47
Muskrat,

Are those metric RPM? Sorry to hear of the hip troubles.

I see the loss of the orbiter as proof positive that metric has to go.

Richard L.
Title: Re: Do the Ton.
Post by: muskrat on 06.03. 2016 20:04
That's real thumping 10.5:1 four stroke revs Richard. It's hard folding myself up and the suspension too hard & very little seat padding. I should bring her back to std trim but I couldn't do it to my old race bike.
Cheers
Title: Re: Do the Ton.
Post by: hdawson on 09.03. 2016 09:33
"And spare the Historic BSA from the Torture "

Too right Viking.

 Keep the big speeds for the modern steed in the stable.
Title: Re: Do the Ton.
Post by: Viking on 13.03. 2016 18:55
Well my BSA has been around 60 years.

Plastic bikes comes and goes, might be Quick, but only for a short time.

MY old brummi bike keep  going... Up to the Ton, but running for decades.....

With Imperial messurement, metric bearings and metric pistons   :-)