The BSA A7-A10 Forum

Technical => A7 & A10 Engine => Topic started by: Joolstacho on 28.10. 2015 23:37

Title: Ally Sump plate and gauze 'strainer'
Post by: Joolstacho on 28.10. 2015 23:37
I'm thinking of fitting one of beezermaccs (Priory Magnetos) ally sump plates with magnetic plug to my SR. The original steel sump plate has the brass gauze pickup 'strainer' soldered to it, but with aluminium that's not going to work is it? What's the go here? Also, the pickup pipe needs to be a pretty good fit with the hole in the strainer, and needs to be well aligned too. I'm imagining trying to fit the gauze to the plate and align the gauze and pipe, and it don't look easy! (Or am I over-thinking this?)
Title: Re: Ally Sump plate and gauze 'strainer'
Post by: KiwiGF on 29.10. 2015 03:19
Is the gauze supplied as a separate piece? If so although I do not have the ally sump like you I think the principle is the same, I have just the standard one with the gauze removed, from memory I just fitted the gauze with gaskets and goo, it stuck in place of course, then fitted a gasket and sump plate, with yet more goo  *lol*     ......it still leaks slightly though!
Title: Re: Ally Sump plate and gauze 'strainer'
Post by: Greybeard on 29.10. 2015 04:56
I imagine that Beezermacs version is the same as mine. The gauze is flat with a hole for the pickup pipe. It sandwiches between two gaskets. My pickup pipe needed a tiny 'adjustment' to make it hit the centre of the hole in the gauze.
Title: Re: Ally Sump plate and gauze 'strainer'
Post by: WozzA on 29.10. 2015 05:12
My SRM one is much the same as Greybeard's...   it comes with gauze & gaskets...
they can be purchased at > http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/BSA-A10-A50-A65-SUMP-GAUZE-FILTER-71-1126-UK-MADE-SRM-/321862152475?hash=item4af07ab11b:g:6eQAAOxygPtS1Bt3
Title: Re: Ally Sump plate and gauze 'strainer'
Post by: Joolstacho on 29.10. 2015 07:25
Ah, so the replacement gauze is flat and is sandwiched/positioned between gaskets. That should work, easy!
(My original brass gauze is not flat, it's 3-dimensional and has 'walls' so it sits maybe 3/8" up, proud of the plate). Cheers.
Title: Re: Ally Sump plate and gauze 'strainer'
Post by: duTch on 29.10. 2015 08:09

 All the above, but I feel it's important to note that the gauze scavenge hole be able to self-centre itself on the scavenge pipe... I haven't used one, but would probably use 3bong...and in addition make sure the magnetic plug is as far from the pickup as possible *eek*
Title: Re: Ally Sump plate and gauze 'strainer'
Post by: Greybeard on 29.10. 2015 09:46
...I feel it's important to note that the gauze scavenge hole be able to self-centre itself on the scavenge pipe...
Not really possible Dutch; the filter position is determined by the sump studs so the pickup pipe has to be in the right place.
Title: Re: Ally Sump plate and gauze 'strainer'
Post by: KiwiGF on 29.10. 2015 09:47
Hi Jools not wishing to do beezermacc out of business but could cut the brass gauze off like I did and use your std sump plate with a new filter gauze which are available from most BSA parts suppliers, and just stick any old magnet to the sump plate....but then you would not have the bling factor!  *work*
Title: Re: Ally Sump plate and gauze 'strainer'
Post by: Greybeard on 29.10. 2015 09:54
...but then you would not have the bling factor!  *work*
Oh yes, I'm forever peering under my machine to admire that sexy sump plate!
Title: Re: Ally Sump plate and gauze 'strainer'
Post by: Topdad on 29.10. 2015 10:18
I concur with GB my bikes on the workbench for the winter and even with her being up in the air I've managed to resist  looking at my SRM sump plate  *whistle*.
Dutch was your mention of keeping the magnetic plug as far away from the pickup pipe due to you thinking about it's effect on the ball bearing in the pipe ? or what ?? Bob
Title: Re: Ally Sump plate and gauze 'strainer'
Post by: muskrat on 29.10. 2015 10:35
There were alloy sump plates with the drain plug in the middle or the offset drain plug is fitted to the rear it could hold the valve closed.
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/70-9979-BSA-B25-C25-TR25-B40WD-B44-B50-SUMP-OIL-FILTER-GAUZE-/111747407440?hash=item1a04aa1e50:g:~3wAAOSwd0BV07me
Cheers
Title: Re: Ally Sump plate and gauze 'strainer'
Post by: beezermacc on 29.10. 2015 12:11
Some alloy sump plate issues to note.... There are two popular types on the market, the billet type (quite swanky!) and the cast type (equally effective but not quite so swanky!). Both types have thicker bodies than the original type so you need to consider how to secure them to the sump. Ideally you should use longer studs so that the whitworth end screws fully into the crankcase casting. Most people use whitworth allen caps and screw them through the new sump into the alloy. I think this is a bit risky as the internal threads in the crankcases are short and prone to stripping anyway. Unless you are very careful making sure your threads are good, and you use the full length of the thread, the potential for stripping is quite significant. I would recommend using longer studs with standard nuts and shakeproof washers - don't use nylok nuts as these grip the studs so tightly that the studs tend to come loose before the nuts. Most people have binned their original strainer by cutting it off the original sump and replacing it with an independent mesh strainer sandwiched between two gaskets and the original sump plate. One further point is that fitting a magnetic sump plug to the original plate magnetises everything the plate comes into contact with, which may include the suction pipe, depending on what type of strainer you use. Ideally the strainer should be stainless steel to prevent this.
Title: Re: Ally Sump plate and gauze 'strainer'
Post by: East_Coast_BSA on 29.10. 2015 14:13
I have the SRM Billet cover.  I was more interested in draining the oil before starting (if the bike sat more than a week).  It used to wet-sump a lot when the engine was new, but has calmed down quite a bit over time.  It's a nice feature to have, instead of blowing oil all over the floor.
Title: Re: Ally Sump plate and gauze 'strainer'
Post by: Viking on 29.10. 2015 14:30
I have the SRM billet ”Swanky” type, with Whitworth studs.
Nice. So easy to get oil tight.

I drain off the oil and discard it, if the bike has been standing unused for a prolonged time..

Can highly recoment the SRM type:
•   Oil tight
•   Magnetic pluck
•   Perfect fit around the suction pipe
•   Comes with studs and gaskets
•   A real treat…. A perfect x-mas pressy. From me to me  
Title: Re: Ally Sump plate and gauze 'strainer'
Post by: Angus on 29.10. 2015 18:27
I got a new sump plate from Poshman1 back in June 2014. It looks great but has never been on the bike. Why because I don't want to use Allen caps or a bolts to hold it for all the reasons beezermacc states and the original studs are to short. Anyone any idea of a source for longer studs so I can fit it next oil change. I also know he made two others that went to Australia, anyone recall having one and how did you get on with it
Title: Re: Ally Sump plate and gauze 'strainer'
Post by: bsa-bill on 29.10. 2015 18:35
 I either changed the studs on my Flash or the sum plate came with longer studs not sure which.
If I changed the studs would I have used the longer studs that are needed on the rocker box for alloy heads ???
Title: Re: Ally Sump plate and gauze 'strainer'
Post by: Greybeard on 29.10. 2015 18:53
If I changed the studs would I have used the longer studs that are needed on the rocker box for alloy heads ???
I used rocker box studs secured in the crankcase with Loctite.
Title: Re: Ally Sump plate and gauze 'strainer'
Post by: muskrat on 29.10. 2015 19:16
Mine never arrived  *sad2*.
My poor old plunger dumps a full oil tank in just over a week  *eek*. Sump plug out, drain into clean container and pour back into tank  >:D.
Cheers
Title: Re: Ally Sump plate and gauze 'strainer'
Post by: Greybeard on 29.10. 2015 19:27
...Sump plug out, drain into clean container and pour back into tank...
I just could not do that. I'd be worrying about some muck getting back into the tank.  *dunno2*
Title: Re: Ally Sump plate and gauze 'strainer'
Post by: morris on 29.10. 2015 19:33
...Sump plug out, drain into clean container and pour back into tank...
I just could not do that. I'd be worrying about some muck getting back into the tank.  *dunno2*

Or a wooden wedge... *smile*
Title: Re: Ally Sump plate and gauze 'strainer'
Post by: duTch on 29.10. 2015 21:36

 
Quote
Dutch was your mention of keeping the magnetic plug as far away from the pickup pipe due to you thinking about it's effect on the ball bearing in the pipe ? or what ?? Bob

 Yes TopBob, that's correct, I'm fairly sure my pickup is slightly front-right, so the magnetic plug would best need be left-rear, which is slightly contrary to Muskys comment
Quote
or the offset drain plug is fitted to the rear it could hold the valve closed.
- but I could be wrong, I'll find out soon when I do a change

 GB-
Quote
...I feel it's important to note that the gauze scavenge hole be able to self-centre itself on the scavenge pipe...

Not really possible Dutch; the filter position is determined by the sump studs so the pickup pipe has to be in the right place.

 You might have mis-interpreted that GB...obvious the plate can only go one way, I think I had in mind the stock item, and should have said "self-aligning".

 I also agree with the use of studs rather than Socket screws- I have some but keep forgetting to use them *bash* note to self *conf*
Title: Re: Ally Sump plate and gauze 'strainer'
Post by: Joolstacho on 30.10. 2015 00:46
I assume then that the alloy plates can't be machined thinner at the bolt positions to allow the standard length studs to work?
(My motivation is so I can easily drain the wetsumping oil without removing the whole plate).
Title: Re: Ally Sump plate and gauze 'strainer'
Post by: kiwipom on 30.10. 2015 03:24
hi guys, S.R.M. supply the cap screw bolts and the strainer with the sump plate plus gaskets I got one some time ago, cheers
Title: Re: Ally Sump plate and gauze 'strainer'
Post by: East_Coast_BSA on 30.10. 2015 03:30
I assume then that the alloy plates can't be machined thinner at the bolt positions to allow the standard length studs to work?
(My motivation is so I can easily drain the wetsumping oil without removing the whole plate).

I used the supplied Allen bolts, and they were kind of short.  I countersunk the bolt holes a bit (for the allen-heads to fit), and I got a few more threads into the case.  The ability to drain the sump is a wonderful thing.  I use a "Ratio-rite" container and pour the oil back into the tank. 
Title: Re: Ally Sump plate and gauze 'strainer'
Post by: RichardL on 30.10. 2015 05:17
Amazing how universally fascinating this topic is. Almost a whole page of recent post devoted to sump plates. Really, some very interesting information. Regarding having long enough allen screws to do the job, don't we all have a bin of used side-cover screws laying around that can be cut down for the job?

Richard L.
Title: Re: Ally Sump plate and gauze 'strainer'
Post by: groily on 30.10. 2015 07:31
Most people use whitworth allen caps and screw them through the new sump into the alloy. I think this is a bit risky as the internal threads in the crankcases are short and prone to stripping anyway. Unless you are very careful making sure your threads are good, and you use the full length of the thread, the potential for stripping is quite significant.
It is funny how long a thread about a thread can get Richard! But I agree 200% with b'macc on the use of studs not cap head screws (as supplied by, eg, SRM for the plate I bought). These are about the most strip-prone threads on the bike, and are often worn to start with.
Surely the best way of doing this and a million other such things is to obtain some basic threading kit and bits of decent steel stock in the usual imperial sizes. For those of us stranded in parts of the world where Brit imperial stuff is unobtainium , it is pretty well essential. The kit is easily available, the initial outlay is a few (not that many) beer vouchers, but thereafter  . . . empowerment!
The low-cost way to keep a shedful of stuff up together is to get the right tools, and then get a small lathe (and some inexpensive supporting literature). Total outlay less than many an engine build, benefits last for ever, satisfaction immense - and the learning curve is pure pleasure.
I divide my shed life into 2 parts - the Days of Make-Do, and the Age of Empowerment.
Title: Re: Ally Sump plate and gauze 'strainer'
Post by: terryg on 30.10. 2015 08:36
Absolutely agree with groily.  Get a lathe and have hours of productive (money saving) fun learning to use it.

If you can stretch to it, make sure your lathe has a screw cutting gearbox.

Also, get and learn to use welding and brazing gear.
Title: Re: Ally Sump plate and gauze 'strainer'
Post by: Greybeard on 30.10. 2015 09:05
...Surely the best way of doing this and a million other such things is to obtain some basic threading kit and bits of decent steel stock in the usual imperial sizes. For those of us stranded in parts of the world where Brit imperial stuff is unobtainium , it is pretty well essential. The kit is easily available, the initial outlay is a few (not that many) beer vouchers, but thereafter  . . . empowerment!
The low-cost way to keep a shedful of stuff up together is to get the right tools, and then get a small lathe (and some inexpensive supporting literature). Total outlay less than many an engine build, benefits last for ever, satisfaction immense - and the learning curve is pure pleasure.
I divide my shed life into 2 parts - the Days of Make-Do, and the Age of Empowerment.
Blimey, who's been reading Zen And The Art Of Motorcycle Maintenance?  ;)
Title: Re: Ally Sump plate and gauze 'strainer'
Post by: muskrat on 30.10. 2015 09:34
I think Jools has missed the point about the alloy sump plates. They have a drain plug so you don't have to remove the plate.
I might check the gauze (plate off) once a year. The plug comes out if the oil tank is down a pint.

Cheers
Title: Re: Ally Sump plate and gauze 'strainer'
Post by: Joolstacho on 30.10. 2015 12:07
Nup, that's the whole point! the reason why I want a sump plate with drain plug is so I don't have to remove the whole plate every time I need to drain the 'wet sumped' oil out of the crankcase.  *smiley4*
Title: Re: Ally Sump plate and gauze 'strainer'
Post by: jachenbach on 30.10. 2015 12:38
British Fasteners in the USA has studs, threaded rod, nuts, bolts, tools............  website: www.britishfasteners.com   I've gotten a few things from them. Service and quality have been quite good. They have studs 1/4" x 1" to 6" 26tpi, 5/16" and 3/8"(BSF), many more listed as BSF-BSC/CEI, BSC/CEI-BSC/CEI, BSW-BSC/CEI. I'm still trying to figure out just what the different designations mean.
Title: Re: Ally Sump plate and gauze 'strainer'
Post by: RichardL on 30.10. 2015 13:00
Blimey, who's been reading Zen And The Art Of Motorcycle Maintenance?  ;)

I've read it and sympathize with/feel Pirsig's (our) dilema with quality (like when to use a "/" and when to use parentheses). I think most of us are on the side with those who enjoy the mechanics and building as much as the riding, as opposed to our friend who rides the BMW, roughly uninvolved with the machine.

Richard L.
Title: Re: Ally Sump plate and gauze 'strainer'
Post by: coater87 on 30.10. 2015 16:59
I have only bought fasteners from 4 different suppliers, but if you want stainless, and want it right, you can not go wrong ordering from Motalia.

 Nothing I have bought from them was less than perfect.
Title: Re: Ally Sump plate and gauze 'strainer'
Post by: groily on 30.10. 2015 17:14
I remember thinking when his book came out that the good Mr Pirsig must have been taking stuff I couldn't afford - but can't recall a lot more about it Graybeard to be honest!

As says terryg. I took the plunge best part of 20 years ago, bought a lathe sight unseen for about the price of a clapped out non-runner, and some excellent little books designed for model engineering people really, dug around the web for hints and so on, and went from there. Anyone can do it, and surprise him/herself at the quality of the result (the inevitable balls-ups are easily forgotten, or turned into something else). Ditto welding (especially with a Mig) and brazing, but I don't enjoy all that hot spatter too much.

In faintly philosophical vein again, a question:- Is a lathe the only DNA-free object that can largely reproduce itself? (Answers on a postcard - saucy reproducers welcome.)
Title: Re: Ally Sump plate and gauze 'strainer'
Post by: muskrat on 30.10. 2015 18:33
G'day Jools, sorry mate, I'm the one miss-understanding. Long hard days at the salt mine.
I agree coater87, Motalia's product is perfect.
One day the wife will earn enough for me to get a lathe, mill, shaper and all the accessories. But it's a good excuse to visit a mate for a beer and use his.
Cheers


Title: Re: Ally Sump plate and gauze 'strainer'
Post by: duTch on 30.10. 2015 22:33

 Found the studs I bought with fancy dome nuts *smile*- from Lightning Spares...thinikng I bought stuff from Motalia before, best get onto them for oil-pump studs..(note to self), and whatever else *conf*

Quote
many more listed as BSF-BSC/CEI, BSC/CEI-BSC/CEI, BSW-BSC/CEI. I'm still trying to figure out just what the different designations mean.

 Jacho, am I missing something, or does BSW/BSF one end BSC/CEI the other; ( BSC/CEI being different names for same thing), sound like what you need to know... *????*
Title: Re: Ally Sump plate and gauze 'strainer'
Post by: RichardL on 30.10. 2015 23:19
I remember thinking when his book came out that the good Mr Pirsig must have been taking stuff I couldn't afford - but can't recall a lot more about it Graybeard to be honest!

Yes, electroshock therapy can be quite pricey. DAMHIK  *lol* (Joking, to the best that I can recall.)

Richard L.