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71
Clutch, Primary, Gearbox / Re: Primary Chain/Sprocket Wear
« Last post by Swarfcut on 14.06. 2021 17:13 »
  Ian.  The quadrant and pinion for all model years share the same basic dimensions as regards bush and shaft sizes and intechange as a pair. Early and late quadrants differ in style and manufacture eg splined kickstart shaft/pressed on quadrant early, one piece brazed up versions on later models. The tooth profile changes too, truncated/flat top quadrant teeth (early) pointy teeth later. Add to that quadrant versions which position the kickstart lever pointing slightly forward and you can see the numerous part numbers which add to the partsman's inventory as this basic box is also used on other models.

     If you have a good quadrant, simply use that with a pinion of matching tooth profile. That's the hard part as it's clear some sellers think one size fits all mistakenly confusing the differing tooth profiles. Mismatches and wear are the reasons for kickstarts that jam. Also true of the previous owner by the look of it, it's a mix, with a good early type flat top tooth plunger quadrant mated to a later pointy pinion.

 Here's what goes with what, all will interchange as pairs on Plunger or S/A boxes.

Plunger        Quadrant 67 3178   with  Pinion  67 3168   Flat top teeth. Fitted up to the 1954 model year.

 With the introduction of the S/A models, the teeth profile changes and the new parts are then used on Plunger boxes as well.

   S/A      Quadrant 42 3160  with   Pinion   67 3376   Pointy teeth. This pair are also shown in my parts list for later engine series DA10 onwards including Super Rocket and Plunger boxes from 1954.

   Your picture of the seal and snap ring looks a bit strange regarding the grub screw securing the selector rod. Hope its a trick of the light but it looks like the area has a hairline crack starting. Pay attention to this area, plenty of internet images of what is correct.

 Swarfy
72
Wanted & For Sale / WANTED - A10 Plunger Parts
« Last post by MidlandsA10 on 14.06. 2021 15:50 »
Good Afternoon All

I thought it may be easier to start a new thread as I've now found most of the mechanical components to build by 'Johnny Cash's Cadillac' 1954 A10 Plunger.

I'm still looking for the following items, if anyone has them lurking in their sheds.  I'm hoping not to pay eBay prices for things, so curious to see what people have got first.

Still looking for the below items:

Footpegs
Hinged rear mudguard
Deep valanced front mudguard
Battery carrier (who isn't looking for one!)
Toolbox
Petrol tank
Brake pedal pivot

I have quite a few spares for the A10 (swingarm) so please feel free to ask.

Many thanks in advance.

Kind regards

Tom
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73
Clutch, Primary, Gearbox / Re: Primary Chain/Sprocket Wear
« Last post by BagONails on 14.06. 2021 14:27 »
bagonails i can't find the pics of the kicker stop repair my brother did for mine but i think he bored the hole and made a new stop, and made a top hat steel sleeve fitted in the case and a thick washer at the back

I think I've found it here bergerman during my search for ratchet to quadrant match ups rather than mash ups.
with my compliments:
https://www.a7a10.net/forum/index.php?topic=15587.msg132470#msg132470

It looks like a good solution, I think I could do that, thanks

John said
"I can see that the sprocket seal circlips is not fully seated"
Yep in fact the one I took out today was similar, I think they've been out before. These clips are tricky to remove without over straining them and they can take a set. I will try your suggestion as we don't want him popping out down the track.

"The gearbox bearing is usually open, but I bet if you popped the seal off it's full of oil?"
That would be my expectation, I tried this and found the inner side seal had already been cut out and put back in again! Yes there was oil in there. I will try to get an open bearing to go back in they are usually cheaper and turn more freely too. The bearing is worn but I've certainly seen and heard a lot worse. It would probably run for many more miles but maybe the end float has an affect on gear changes so worth changing it now its out I guess.

"The kickstart ratchet gear should match the quadrant, it looks like a pointy gear was fitted? Hence the mash up!!!
The inner bushes are different sizes , was the pointed gear loose on thd bush?
Anyway you need to match them up"

I've been searching and read many threads but I'm still not sure. Our parts guy here "Mike's Classics" lists 67-3376 and that agrees with the spares list I have. The picture is of a pointy toothed 17T pinion  He also lists a 67-3168 which he says is for Plunger models and not for S/A types like mine, this one has flat topped teeth. So it would seem that my pointy toothed pinion is the correct one. The book also says 42-3160 is the correct quadrant but this has pointy teeth and mine are very flat topped. Maybe I have the wrong quadrant and that has mullared the pinion? The pinion is a lot cheaper to replace however so do I get a truncated tooth version to match the quadrant I have but then I need to change the bush as well which is a good fit with the current pinion. Basically how do we match these correctly is  it pointy/pointy or truncated/pointy or pointy/truncated or truncated/truncated (Quadrant / pinion respectively)

I've not seen your K/S stop idea John but the one above looks pretty good, maybe you have a similar suggestion. The idea of a top hat sleeve sounds right to me. I'll make a new stop pin too while I'm at it.

Back to more searching now...

 
74
Clutch, Primary, Gearbox / Re: Primary Chain/Sprocket Wear
« Last post by berger on 14.06. 2021 13:07 »
bagonails i can't find the pics of the kicker stop repair my brother did for mine but i think he bored the hole and made a new stop, and made a top hat steel sleeve fitted in the case and a thick washer at the back
75
Clutch, Primary, Gearbox / Re: Primary Chain/Sprocket Wear
« Last post by chaterlea25 on 14.06. 2021 13:01 »
Hi Ian,
Ok, where do I start my reply?

I can see that the sprocket seal circlips is not fully seated in its groove as the ends are too close together... this is a common issue as the rubber face on the back of the seal can be too thick.   Work around the circlips with a flat punch and see if the circlips seats into the groove

The gearbox bearing is usually open, but I bet if you popped the seal off it's full of oil?
A lot of modern gearboxes use sealed bearings. Make sure the replacement is a quality branded item

The kickstart ratchet gear should match the quadrant, it looks like a pointy gear was fitted? Hence the mash up!!!
The inner bushes are different sizes , was the pointed gear loose on thd bush?
Anyway you need to match them up

I posted a fix for the kickstart stop a long time ago, Do a search for it
(I am replying on my phone so not easy to search) I can look tonight if you can't find it

John
76
Clutch, Primary, Gearbox / Re: Primary Chain/Sprocket Wear
« Last post by BagONails on 14.06. 2021 12:20 »
Part 2!
In which we answer more of John's questions hopefully...
Now is the time to check out the condition of the drive sprocket and seal in the gearbox along with the main bearing and sleeve gear bushes
I wonder why the case was pushed in so far? Was it to allow the clutch to seat on the taper?

The final drive/gearbox sprocket has been removed and this is a shot of the back of the gearbox. I've not cleaned anything and you can see the glistening pieces of aluminium swarf stuck all over everything from the drive chain milling away the rear primary case - noice! The good thing is that the gearbox had plenty of reasonably clean oil in it and most of it was inside rather than outside. The main bearing and seal appear to be OK I can only feel bare perceptible movement in the bearing same goes for the sleeve between the inner mainshaft end and outer constant mesh gear. There was a little oil around the sprocket at the back but this must come through the sleeve and the splines I guess and can't be stopped as far as I can see.

So the covers both came off easily enough and I am pleased to find little sign of P/O having ventured this far. The gaskets were old and very thin more like  a fine paper than the usual. I have found the kick start pinion in rather a sorry state, it looks like the pointy version, while the quadrant has truncated teeth and looks like new, its as if the pinion is purposely designed to be sacrificial although it's not so cheap to replace.

I also found the kick start quadrant stop was loose (despite having both a split washer and a star washer on the back!) and was slowly chewing its way through the cover, you can see the ovalised hole in the housing. I'm thinking to fix this I need to spot face the inside of the housing and put in a non standard  steel washer as the stop is slowly disappearing further inside the housing each time it gets re-tightened.

Finally I'm not sure this bearing was correct? Why would you put a sealed bearing in there when its running inside a sealed box with plenty of lubricant sloshing around? In fact its possible this has been causing oil starvation to the layshaft bush which sits below. There is a drilling which appears to be situated to benefit from oil coming through the bearing above and running down the face to be collected by the drilling and feed the layshaft end bearing in turn except this wouldn't happen with a sealed bearing I don't think?  Having said all that All the bronze bushes I can see and get to appear in pretty good nick with no visible wear ridges. I think this box might have been reconditioned at least once in its life...

Finally a quick peek inside, not much room for fingers in there, glad I sought advice on here before pulling its guts out as I can now see how difficult it would be to fiddle things back into place when it is on its side like this in situ.  Once again thanks for the good advice fellas.

Cheers Ian
77
A7 & A10 Engine / Iron Head Plunger Engine Specs
« Last post by MidlandsA10 on 14.06. 2021 12:11 »
Dear All

I've just picked up an DA10 engine, which I intend to graft the 'top end' and crank to a Plunger set of crankcases.

The barrels are relatively new with 8.5:1 +60 pistons.  I'm planning on using the original iron head.  The valves seats have been recut with new valves (standard size of 1.40" inlet valves).  What would be the recommended cam to use for a fast road bike with an iron head and mildly high compression pistons?

Kind regards

Tom
78
Wanted & For Sale / Re: WANTED - A10 Plunger Crankcases
« Last post by MidlandsA10 on 14.06. 2021 12:06 »
Chaps

Thanks for the pointers. 

Muskrat - you're safe.  I picked the cases up that were offered to me by Tony (RestoMan_63) so I'm all sorted now thanks.

Still looking for the below items:

Hinged rear mudguard
Footpegs
Battery carrier (who isn't looking for one!)
Toolbox
Petrol tank
Brake pedal pivot

Kind regards

Tom
79
Clutch, Primary, Gearbox / Re: Primary Chain/Sprocket Wear
« Last post by BagONails on 14.06. 2021 11:40 »
Hi John,
Now hang on a minute, I thought I was the one asking the questions around here?!  *fight*
(Only Jokes folks very grateful for the input and the interest.)

The sliding plate in your pic looks  non standard? With a boss at the sprocket side
Can You post some close up pics from either side?

So you spotted that then, I'm sure P/O has put this on backwards with the riveted on plate against the felt washer, that plate weren't slidin' nowhere!

In fact due to the worn out chain wheel and very worn primary drive chain the gearbox is quite a long way back and the riveted centre piece was partly across the edge of the hole in the rear primary case. I've attached photos of the plate and the adaptor as you can see it has been rubbing hard on the mainshaft.

I have ordered amongst other things a chainwheel/clutch basket, new adaptor, new center hub and new rollers so we will see how all this fits up. There was significant movement on the chainwheel in the old assembly and due to a lack of lubrication, I can see significant wear on the original adaptor where the rollers were running so decided to replace everything that could affect this. It has been running with the wrong centre nut and no flanged washer so I think things were being pulled well out of line by the engine torque and this has caused a lot of the chewing away on the sprocket side you can see in the previous photos. The alignment currently is actually pretty good, within about 0.5mm with a quality steel rule edge on along the drive sprocket and sighting from above along the dismantled empty chainwheel/adaptor assembled back on the mainshaft.  I only hope the replacement parts will be comparable but we will worry about that when they arrive.

I've added a picture of the gap I am getting now at the rear mount to the frame with the inner case reattached at the front and this is without the new gasket in there. The gap is about 2mm, and that is the spacer that was in there, its about 8.5mm thick... and I was disappointed it was leaking!
80
A few years ago I joined the FJ1200 and Ducati OC forum just to notify them of a members passing.
I'm sure my wife would let you all know.
Cheers
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