Author Topic: B33/M20 plunger electric start project  (Read 370 times)

Offline mikeb

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B33/M20 plunger electric start project
« on: 14.03. 2026 03:40 »
Here's a first vid of my electric start m20-framed b33 project - on youtube:
https://youtu.be/Ozn5wrqsQlo

Its been a mission, got complicated and taken ages. Basically an early 80’s XJ750 starter (with planetary gears) and a custom dog clutch - not a sprag as I’d say there is 0% chance of an XB motor not backfiring / lurching and destroying a sprag. The dogs are moved inboard by a fork on linear bearings using a lever through the back of the primary case that also switches power - initially 18% (with a time-out) until fully engaged then 100%.  This 2-step is coz initially if I was careless I could spin the motor up full power and snap the 06B chain with harsh engagement. It is switched so that it must start with the decompressor. switch on, decomp in, lever across, drop the decomp. when the engine starts, ramps on the back of the dogs disengage it and stops power.

Pics show the decompressor switch, the tangle of electrics, resistor block under the seat (for the 18% power step) and the starter itself. I’ll post more pics at some point.

I have yet to see another tin chaincase BSA electric starter. There are many design problems (and no, i probably wouldn't go this route again). but, so far, it appears to work. Reliability will be another question…
New Zealand
'61 Super Rocket  - '47 B33 -  '25 Triumph Speed Triple RS

Offline Bsareg

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Re: B33/M20 plunger electric start project
« Reply #1 on: 14.03. 2026 10:20 »
Well done!! That seems to turn over a lot faster than my Pearson starter on the goldie.
Helston, Cornwall C11,B40,B44 Victor,A10,RGS,M21,Rocket3,REBSA

Offline mikeb

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Re: B33/M20 plunger electric start project
« Reply #2 on: 14.03. 2026 22:37 »
thanks bsa. i measured the kick-over speed to need about 200-250rpm at the crank but its harder to measure the starter speed without load so it was guestimate followed by suck it and see. the starter has a 5:1? planetary then as 28:15 on the dog sprockets.

BTW - attached pic of the dogs. my engineering son modelled them up on the compuetr and got them cnc machined in hong kong. costs approx us$180 including dhl to the door. he did a great job on the lobes and splines - fitted spot on.
New Zealand
'61 Super Rocket  - '47 B33 -  '25 Triumph Speed Triple RS

Offline Bsareg

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Re: B33/M20 plunger electric start project
« Reply #3 on: 15.03. 2026 10:21 »
Great idea, looks like a far superior job than using a sprag. Even my 350 Indian Bullet manual  recommend stopping the engine with the decompressor to eliminate any backsnatch, and I've lost count of how many times I've repaired the Norton sprag.
Helston, Cornwall C11,B40,B44 Victor,A10,RGS,M21,Rocket3,REBSA

Online RDfella

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Re: B33/M20 plunger electric start project
« Reply #4 on: 15.03. 2026 12:04 »
"I have yet to see another tin chaincase BSA electric starter."
Well, here is another one on an M21 frame (albeit with a vee engine). Not as neat as yours though.
Starter is at bottom, dynamo above.
https://youtu.be/hi4JAdBiTF4

Just added, not sure a sprag is a disadvantage - if the engine kicks back (especially on starting but less so on stopping), it'll hit the starter the same whether a clutch or sprag. Which is why on auto advance on old bikes I always retard the ignition by around 5deg and widen the advance by the same amount. I only decompress on my 60deg vee because of the load, not on my M21 or GF. If the sprag is man enough, should give no problem.

'49 B31, '49 M21, '53 DOT, '58 Flash, '62 Flash special, '00 Firestorm, Weslake sprint bike.

Online chaterlea25

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Re: B33/M20 plunger electric start project
« Reply #5 on: 15.03. 2026 14:13 »
Hi Mike,
I would be very interested in any photos or drawings you have of the ES conversion you have done as i have been asked to attempt the same on A ZB34?
I have an idea to protect the mechanism from overload or kick back by adding cable splitters to the advance/retard and valve lifter, the second leg of the cables would operate micro switches that prevent the starter engaging unless the ignition is retarded and the valve lifter lever pulled  *????* *????* *????*.

A friend has made up an ES setup on a 1927 New Hudson 500ohv  using a double chain drive with a sprag bearing on the intermediate  shaft plus a gear reductoon starter.
It seems to be working well.

Another thought is to fit a second sprag bearing side by side to beef up the mechanism. *????*

John

 
1961 Super Rocket
1963 RGS (ongoing)

Offline mikeb

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Re: B33/M20 plunger electric start project
« Reply #6 on: 16.03. 2026 02:10 »
RD – that V starter makes mine look compact – I hadn’t seen that before.
you are right that dogs can allow kick back thru the starter on unsuccessful starting, tho the dogs offer protection by disengagement at the end of a starting action and when the XB engine inevitably stops/ lurches back. But dogs also bring other problems, not the least of which are engagement mechanism and, here, lateral movement on the chain.
New Zealand
'61 Super Rocket  - '47 B33 -  '25 Triumph Speed Triple RS

Offline mikeb

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Re: B33/M20 plunger electric start project
« Reply #7 on: 16.03. 2026 02:13 »
John – good idea re split cable but no matter how retarded the spark, I don’t think you’ll stop an xb/zb from lurching back on a sprag, especially when the engine stops. Tho maybe the New Hudson project proves me wrong? maybe a torque limiter would help, albeit be enormous.

if I did this again I’d investigate mounting a starter behind the gearbox with a throw Bendix (like old minis) to a ring gear on the back of the clutch basket. Move all that out maybe with an alternator-type or later gold star clutch adaptor (they sit further out) and space out the crankshaft end. And do something to fix that god-awful clutch bearing. Then its just rebuild the tin chaincase – inner and outer.

That said I’ll post some sections below with pics as per some of the components. Keep I mind I’m an office worker so my standards and skills leave a bit to be desired. And the whole things ‘evolved’ in a not well thought out prototype way. At least the whole thing is reversable with only the outer chaincase sacrificed.
New Zealand
'61 Super Rocket  - '47 B33 -  '25 Triumph Speed Triple RS

Offline mikeb

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Re: B33/M20 plunger electric start project
« Reply #8 on: 16.03. 2026 04:34 »
Dog mechanism and forks:

The cush is in the 4-spring clutch centre (as per the alternator bikes).
The dog inner is splined on the crank with lobes onto the normal crank sprocket. Its retained by the crank end nut, which is turned down a bit to the same dia as the OD of the splined section of the inner dog. on this sits a sleve. on that sits a 4516 needle roller that is pressed in to the inside of the outer dog assemly. so the outer dog assembly can move in and out along the crank axis - 9mm movement including 6mm of engagement. There’s 28T 06B sprocket on the outer of the outer dog.

The fork engages a slot in the outside of the outer dog and sits on linear bearings, which slide on hardened rods against springs into a base piece. The base assembly is attached to 2 of the 3 bolts that hold the primary case to the crankcase, around the crank. If I’d have got the location of this piece better I would not have had to move the oil filler plug in the case – but…

There’s 2 ip rated microswitches under the fork. (the pics show when it was just one - I hope the switches survive that environment.) One has a spring mechanism to allow a long overtravel so it engages just prior to the dogs making contact. The other when the dogs are fully home. The switches activate parallel 120A relays to the starter. One relay has a resistor block in series (3x 0.8ohm 50W in parrallel = 0.27 ohm, mounted on aluminium, for low power initial dog engagement). this resistor aproach was easier/cheaper than pwm or 2x 6v batteries and the heat is minimal.

Starter etc:

The starter motor is a mitsuba sm2(?) off an xj750 or similar. Its about 700w with internal planetary gears. I had to modify the brush plate and wiring to make it run backwards. Mounting it rigid was not easy. It has 2 mounts at the far end but originally is held by its collar at the drive end. It has 2x 6mm threads for a cover plate - not strong. So I made shaped spacer held off by 2 adjustable bolts for chain tensioning. that sits on a 20mm square bar perpendicular to the engine plates/starter mount bracket. it has not been easy to stop the starter motor from twisting a little (when under load) as the sprocket/drive end is so far from the engine pates (on which it all ultimately bolts to).

The mitsuba starter has a weird 31T 13mm spline – I couldn’t find a matching splined sprocket so machined down its original gear to make a collar inside the 06B 15T sprocket. I had sheer pins between the sprocket/collar but they broke repeatedly, spun to cause wear, slop, misalignment and so are now held with thick pins and bearing retainer. Not great. I'll need to rework this one day.

also the location of the starter needed to be as close to frame bolts as possible, on an incline to allow oil to drain back down, high enought to prevent the mudguard hitting it under fork dive and low as posisble to minimize chain length.

The chaincase:
it wasn't that hard to modify and quite fun hammering and shaping metals bits. moving the filler was annoying and making it oil tight a challenge. fitting/removing the case now requires the starter chain removal. not good design.

I feel compelled to say - its a project - could do better. to get this far it took 2 different motor types, 3 chains, 4 fork designs and a unknown number of electrical versions.  if you have any specific questions ask away. And John I'll be very interested to hear what you come up with for the ZB.
New Zealand
'61 Super Rocket  - '47 B33 -  '25 Triumph Speed Triple RS

Online chaterlea25

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Re: B33/M20 plunger electric start project
« Reply #9 on: 16.03. 2026 13:57 »
Hi Mike,
Thank You so much for your detailed reply and photo's, they will certainly give me food for thought ;)
The ZB has a 21 in. front wheel  which reduces the space in front of the engine that could be an issue *????*

The ZB is not mine but i have been asked to recommission it, with thoughts on ES.
The owner is also friends with the New Hudson owner, he has added ES to several of his own bikes,
I'm thinking I should get him involved on the ZB *????* and let me get on with my own projects?

John
1961 Super Rocket
1963 RGS (ongoing)

Online Rex

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Re: B33/M20 plunger electric start project
« Reply #10 on: 16.03. 2026 17:48 »
I have a ZB32 Goldie and perversely it's my easiest bike to start, hot or cold.

Online chaterlea25

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Re: B33/M20 plunger electric start project
« Reply #11 on: 16.03. 2026 23:17 »
Hi Rex,
The problem with the ZB34 is that the owner is older and has knee trouble  *problem* *problem*

John
1961 Super Rocket
1963 RGS (ongoing)

Offline mikeb

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Re: B33/M20 plunger electric start project
« Reply #12 on: 16.03. 2026 23:31 »
John – re the ZB / 21” wheel. This is a tele M20 frame which has the frame front downtube angled more towards the engine, sidecar lug outside the triangle, compared with girder M20s and B series –I assume including the ZB. That gave me extra space in front of the engine – you may have less to start with. But you will have more between the engine and frame downtube as the engine pates are wider – I’m not sure if enough for a starter, and it would sit higher.

what do you think re behind the gearbox etc?
New Zealand
'61 Super Rocket  - '47 B33 -  '25 Triumph Speed Triple RS