Author Topic: Wet sumping (again!)  (Read 1007 times)

Online Greybeard

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Wet sumping (again!)
« on: 04.12. 2015 11:21 »
I've had my bike on the bench with it's timing cover removed for about a month now and only about half a cupful of oil has dripped into the tray. Actually most of that dripped out when I removed the cover. Is this a record?

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Re: Wet sumping (again!)
« Reply #1 on: 04.12. 2015 19:07 »
G'day GB.
Is that with the sump plate removed as well? You'll always get a bit when you drop the timing cover off. Wet sumping oil usually drains through the bush and into the sump.
Cheers
'51 A7 plunger, '57 A7SS now A10CR, '76 XT500, '77 AG175 '83 CB1100F, '81 CB900F project.
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Offline duTch

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Re: Wet sumping (again!)
« Reply #2 on: 04.12. 2015 21:29 »
 As a reference, when I changed my oil the other week and also finally installed the new iron 'high-flow' oil pump from John Phelan, I collected and measured about 54ml /~2oz from the timing chest.
   Last change I measured what came from the sump straight after stopping, about 150ml/ 6oz.

 As the pump is higher flow I assume that is feed flow, but I see a stronger return at the tank too, so I'm wondering if the amount in the sump will change too; I guess I'll check that next time.

 I think the only way to reduce the volume of oil in the timing chest would be to park the bike on side stand with the rear wheel up a ramp or similar, to allow some of the oil to flow through the only aperture to the sump, this aperture being under the pinion. I thought to make a drain-through, but doubt it be possible.

 On a different note; Musky I think I debated in a different thread that my sump pickup is on the right-front(or left-rear?), it is in fact right-rear *red*

  Quick edit; Since that photo, I've wired the pump screws but that photo would've been too busy *smile*

Started building in about 1977/8 a on average '52 A10 -built from bits 'n pieces never resto intended -maybe 'personalised'
Have a '74 850T Moto Guzzi since '92-best thing I ever bought doesn't need a kickstart 'cos it bump starts sooooooooo(mostly) easy
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Offline kiwipom

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Re: Wet sumping (again!)
« Reply #3 on: 05.12. 2015 00:18 »
Hi guys, some time ago I did an experiment to see what was happening in that area of the oil pump because I had seen a good flow of oil coming from the main bearing bush when turning the engine over with a drill without the cover on. What I found was that part of the main bush runs in a flooded timing cover compartment and that the pump was attempting to pressurise that compartment until oil flowed into the sump, I deduced by that experiment that the gasket seal on that part of the timing case was quite important.

Dutch the drain hole into the crankcase seems to be different to your pic, also I must mention that it was nice to have a chat with you on the phone when I was in Bris recently pity we couldn't have had a couple of cold ones and with that heat we needed one, cheers   
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Offline duTch

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Re: Wet sumping (again!)
« Reply #4 on: 05.12. 2015 22:06 »
 Hiya KP- wouldn't that be a bit messy ? *smile*... I was working at the Goldy  a few months ago and saw a HD (se pic) with clear case a bit like that, thought t was fairly flash...
 
Quote
..... the drain hole into the crankcase seems to be different to your pic,.....
I'm curious where the hole is in yours then, as mine is from memory about 3/4" dia., and how the chamber holds so much oil and why it would want to pressurize, I thought S/A's and plunger were the same except for mountings...plot thickens *dunno*?
 I didn't inspect too close, so maybe I saw it wrong, maybe Graybeard can have a squiz while his is apart and maybe take a pic  *smile*....just had a look in the Haynes, but not very clear, but I did note that the scavenge pipe is different from (how I remember) my Plunger one, which is longer and attaches closer to behind the oil pump *conf2*

 
 
Quote
.... also I must mention that it was nice to have a chat with you on the phone when I was in Bris recently pity we couldn't have had a couple of cold ones and with that heat we needed one, cheers   

 Yep another couple of hours I was hoping to be be out your way; wrong timing again,I was thirsty too, so had one for you anyway *beer*

Started building in about 1977/8 a on average '52 A10 -built from bits 'n pieces never resto intended -maybe 'personalised'
Have a '74 850T Moto Guzzi since '92-best thing I ever bought doesn't need a kickstart 'cos it bump starts sooooooooo(mostly) easy
Australia

Offline kiwipom

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Re: Wet sumping (again!)
« Reply #5 on: 06.12. 2015 01:16 »
hi guys, Dutch, hears a couple of pics of an old s/a crankcase showing the pump compartment, yeah the drain hole back to the inside of the case is quite high allowing that main bush to run in oil,cheers
A10.G.Flash(cafe racer)Honda 250 vtr. Yamaha Virago XV920.

War! what is it good for?Absolutely nothing, Edwin Star.
NewZealand

Online Greybeard

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Re: Wet sumping (again!)
« Reply #6 on: 06.12. 2015 17:28 »
I didn't inspect too close, so maybe I saw it wrong, maybe Graybeard can have a squiz while his is apart and maybe take a pic  *smile*

When I get a chance I will.

Offline duTch

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Re: Wet sumping (again!)
« Reply #7 on: 06.12. 2015 20:16 »

 whoops Ok, maybe I got it wrong(again *bash* *shh*), as I said, it was a lazy look that I had, and was thinking of holes like the ones either side of the idler bush....KP, did you by any chance measure the volume of oil in there?
Started building in about 1977/8 a on average '52 A10 -built from bits 'n pieces never resto intended -maybe 'personalised'
Have a '74 850T Moto Guzzi since '92-best thing I ever bought doesn't need a kickstart 'cos it bump starts sooooooooo(mostly) easy
Australia

Offline kiwipom

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Re: Wet sumping (again!)
« Reply #8 on: 07.12. 2015 04:08 »
hi guys, no didn't measure the amount of oil but I would guess 50/60ml. just crossed my mind that if the drain hole was blocked up and another hole made higher the whole brass bearing could be submerged at all times, just a thought,cheers
A10.G.Flash(cafe racer)Honda 250 vtr. Yamaha Virago XV920.

War! what is it good for?Absolutely nothing, Edwin Star.
NewZealand

Offline duTch

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Re: Wet sumping (again!)
« Reply #9 on: 07.12. 2015 11:18 »

 This is getting interesting :!... As it is, it seems half the pinion depth is in a bath, dunno if changing it would be an advantage *dunno* but I would imagine that a certain amount would be flung out to the drain hole above the pump-rear by the pinion teeth anyway...I'll see if I can sucker(sweet-talk) DrewBacka into a closeup of his bare cases and save Graybeard a hassle *whistle*
Started building in about 1977/8 a on average '52 A10 -built from bits 'n pieces never resto intended -maybe 'personalised'
Have a '74 850T Moto Guzzi since '92-best thing I ever bought doesn't need a kickstart 'cos it bump starts sooooooooo(mostly) easy
Australia

Online Greybeard

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Re: Wet sumping (again!)
« Reply #10 on: 07.12. 2015 11:34 »
...I'll see if I can sucker(sweet-talk) DrewBacka into a closeup of his bare cases and save Graybeard a hassle *whistle*
Look, some of us have a life!  *bash*

Offline duTch

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Re: Wet sumping (again!)
« Reply #11 on: 07.12. 2015 11:47 »

 
Quote
Quote from: duTch on Today at 11:18

    ...I'll see if I can sucker(sweet-talk) DrewBacka into a closeup of his bare cases and save Graybeard a hassle *whistle*

Look, some of us have a life!  *bash*
 
 GB, I mean I don't want/expect you to waste your time. The  *whistle* was intended for Drew; should've been " ...I'll see if I can sucker(sweet-talk) DrewBacka *whistle*  into a closeup of his bare cases and save Graybeard a hassle "


 Now Drew can  *bash* me
Started building in about 1977/8 a on average '52 A10 -built from bits 'n pieces never resto intended -maybe 'personalised'
Have a '74 850T Moto Guzzi since '92-best thing I ever bought doesn't need a kickstart 'cos it bump starts sooooooooo(mostly) easy
Australia

Offline nimrod650

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Re: Wet sumping (again!)
« Reply #12 on: 02.01. 2016 16:42 »
speaking to a guy who saw a tap fitted to oil feed pipe on an a7 shooting star and the bike would not start unless it was turned on could it be done on a simple earth contact to mag cut out????

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Re: Wet sumping (again!)
« Reply #13 on: 03.01. 2016 07:01 »
Just fit a sump with a drain plug. Taps of any description with or without safety switches are asking for trouble. If you can't spend a few minutes once a month to drain it you should ride a Suhoyaka.
Please don't take offense, I really hate the thought.
Cheers
ps, I did a test on my '51 A7, she wet sumps at a rate of 60ml/24 hours. The A10 only 10ml/24 hours.   
'51 A7 plunger, '57 A7SS now A10CR, '76 XT500, '77 AG175 '83 CB1100F, '81 CB900F project.
Australia
Muskys Plunger A7

Offline nimrod650

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Re: Wet sumping (again!)
« Reply #14 on: 03.01. 2016 16:55 »
Just fit a sump with a drain plug. Taps of any description with or without safety switches are asking for trouble. If you can't spend a few minutes once a month to drain it you should ride a Suhoyaka.
Please don't take offense, I really hate the thought.
Cheers
ps, I did a test on my '51 A7, she wet sumps at a rate of 60ml/24 hours. The A10 only 10ml/24 hours.
my honda c90 has a wet sump not a problem sorry to everyone for swearing again