Author Topic: Decarbonising my engine  (Read 1541 times)

Offline BSA_54A10

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Re: Decarbonising my engine
« Reply #15 on: 12.04. 2016 11:04 »
Now it's done I'll tell you the old fashioned way to do a decoke. Bring motor up to operating temp, remove the air filter. Find a squrty bottle and fill with water. Start the motor and hold it WOT (wide open throttle) now squirt water into carb mouth. Watch the s&it fly out the exhaust pipe. You can also use this method to deglaze a bore by changing the water for bonami/ajax. *eek* *bash* *evil* *whistle*
Now I'll run for cover.
Cheers
Disclaimer. That's how the old mechanic did my grandfathers EH Holden in 1966.

Ok Musky, you do it first and let me know if you are happy about it.

No the hydrogen is not being released and burned.
Hydrogen burns wih an intense white flame, bloody quickly.

It is pure physics.
16 mils of water ( 1/2 teaspoon ) turns into 22.7 liters of steam at 100 deg C , 1 atmosphere of pressure at sea level.
However it is 1600 deg C in the cylinder so you get a 16 time volume expansion due to the heat.
But at those temperatures the normal steam turns into super steam , then dry steam, then dissasociated dry steam.
At each phase change there is a massive volume increase and this is what cleans off the carbon deposits, and all the oil off the cylinder walls so you don't do it for very long.

When I was running the foundry we did the calculations ( don't ask me to do them now ) but what we told the new furnace men was a 2 liter milk carton od water in the copper furnace turns into an 8 lane 50 meter long swiming pool of steam in less the 1/5 a second.
Most of them could visualise that and then noting that the furnace was about 4 vans in volume would ask where the metal goes when this happens .
I used to point to the dags of metal hanging from the rafters, 100 foot away at the other end of the building.
They got the message and made sure every thing that went nto the furnaces was dry.

Back in the blue smaoke days it was SOP every month or so, just had to make sure mums washing was not on the cloths line.

I've noticed that a little water sprinkled on flames makes a big display. I guess the Hydrogen in the water is being released. I know that old tractors injected water into the combustion chamber to aid the burning of their fuel, (paraffin?). I have also often noticed that my old banger motor cars have gone better in the rain.
Bike Beesa
Trevor

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Re: Decarbonising my engine
« Reply #16 on: 12.04. 2016 11:15 »
Quote
I know that old tractors injected water into the combustion chamber to aid the burning of their fuel, (paraffin?). I have also often noticed that my old banger motor cars have gone better in the rain.
So, what's going on when water aids combustion?  *conf2*

Online bsa-bill

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Re: Decarbonising my engine
« Reply #17 on: 12.04. 2016 18:18 »
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So, what's going on when water aids combustion?

Is it not related to the density of the mixture, sort of like an increase in compression, bot an expert in physics though
All the best - Bill
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1959 Rocket Gold Flash - blinged and tarted up  would have seizure if taken to  Tesco

Offline BSA_54A10

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Re: Decarbonising my engine
« Reply #18 on: 13.04. 2016 11:32 »
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So, what's going on when water aids combustion? 

It does not aid combustion in any way shape or form.
It simply acts as a steam engine and robs some heat from the flame front

The amount of energy that it takes away from the combustion is substantially less than the energy available from the expanding steam.
Thus the engine runs a lot cooler because you are actually using some of the 70 to 80 % of the energy from combustion that would normally go out the exhause as waste heat.
The auto industry played with it for years but gave up for exactly the same reason you old Kero tractor got replaced.
You have to start up on petrol to heat the engine.
When it is up to operation temperature you then have to get the water into the cylinder plus a little oil to stop scouring on the rings .
You also need to run the engine a bit leaner so you have to change the air fuel ratio.
When you shut down you have to finish back on fuel so as to leace oil on the cylinder wall or the engine & valves will rust between uses.

I knocked around with a bloke who set up an old Holden 138 Cu" grey engine with a deisel fuel injected head and two carburettors.
HE started the car on petrol then switched over to water and the second carb jetted very very lean.
The car got around 120 MPG on a run and had tons of torque, enough to strip all the teeth off several gears on more than one occasion.
Back in the 60's it was a difficult car to drive as all this had to be done manually and if you switched carbs too earlly you got detonation & a holed piston and if you switched too late you got water wet plugs.
So it was a set up that never would have worked with Joe Public.
However now days with computer controlled engines it will be a doddle you would just need 2 injectors per cylinder and when you get home the engine would go through the run down proceedure after you switched it off, A problem for people with small garages but I can see it making a come back as car makers get stretched to compete with "clean" electric vehicles.
After all I have an LPG vehicle that does the first bit quite well, you just need to program a run down into the computer.
Bike Beesa
Trevor

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Re: Decarbonising my engine
« Reply #19 on: 13.04. 2016 13:23 »
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So, what's going on when water aids combustion? 

It does not aid combustion in any way shape or form...

It simply acts as a steam engine and robs some heat from the flame front

---- SNIP ----

Really fascinating information, thanks!

Offline duTch

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Re: Decarbonising my engine
« Reply #20 on: 14.04. 2016 09:43 »

 Interesting stuff, have ta love the old grey motors, and can live without Joe Pubelick anyway, but I have to ask in a maybe dyslexic moment, if you mean 'less' or 'more' (underlined);
 
Quote
The amount of energy that it takes away from the combustion is substantially less than the energy available from the expanding steam.

 The Cat D4 we had on the farm had a kero starter motor, then ran on distillate (which reminds me, a guy I did a job with the other day told me the local BeePee factory is being dismantled-as discussed elsewhere)

 My Ma's hubby (he hated being called that) used to talk about running old Fords with a water drip feed into the carb  *dunno*
Started building in about 1977/8 a on average '52 A10 -built from bits 'n pieces never resto intended -maybe 'personalised'
Have a '74 850T Moto Guzzi since '92-best thing I ever bought doesn't need a kickstart 'cos it bump starts sooooooooo(mostly) easy
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Re: Decarbonising my engine
« Reply #21 on: 17.04. 2016 17:22 »
As I had dropped the carb needle one groove I wanted to check the plug colour. So today from a fast speed I selected neutral, hit the kill button, stopped the engine and rolled to a halt so tick-over didn't soot the plugs up as advised in tuning manuals. Both plugs were a mid brown/mushroom colour so I am pleased with the running mixture. While checking the plugs beside the road a very nice chap pulled up in his car to ask if I needed any assistance. How good is that?  *smile*

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Re: Decarbonising my engine
« Reply #22 on: 17.04. 2016 18:35 »
While checking the plugs beside the road a very nice chap pulled up in his car to ask if I needed any assistance. How good is that?  *smile*
Exactly the same for me the other week. I always do the same.
To do a plug chop for best reading of the needle clip position. Riding at 1/2 throttle (mark the twist grip before you start) up a gentle slope for a few hundred yards, pull the clutch and hit the kill button, coast to a stop. Even just a few revs at any other throttle position will mask the reading. I also use an endoscope camera to look at the piston crown.
Cheers
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Offline BSA_54A10

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Re: Decarbonising my engine
« Reply #23 on: 19.04. 2016 13:12 »
Because you arre using heat from the combustion of the fuel to turn the water into steam, it robs the energy from the combustion thus the amount of work the fuel air buring does is reduced.
However the small amount of heat "stolen" from the combustion is a lot less than the massive amount of energy released due to the formation of steam.
If it was not this way it would go slower when you turned the water on.
It is just the conversion of heat into pressure energy raising the steam is substantially better ( more efficient) than the conversion of heat into pressure from the burning of the fuel.
Because the water turning inot steam is taking energy from the burning fuel it actually cools it down so you can run a much more lean air:fuel ratio.

 have been hearing rumbles of this being applied to truck engine in te near future again in order to pretend to meet exhaust gas EPA requirements.
Bike Beesa
Trevor

Online cyclobutch

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Re: Decarbonising my engine
« Reply #24 on: 19.04. 2016 13:19 »
While checking the plugs beside the road a very nice chap pulled up in his car to ask if I needed any assistance. How good is that?  *smile*
Exactly the same for me the other week. I always do the same.
Cheers

When my T3 ground to a halt Sunday I soon had two other Guzzi mounted riders pull up, but all they did was take the p155. But then they had just been at the same pub as me on a branch meeting. Turned out my RH plug lead had popped off at the same time I had to switch the tank to reserve (LH tap) - what are the chances of that happening?
Various, including ...
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Online Greybeard

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Re: Decarbonising my engine
« Reply #25 on: 19.04. 2016 13:57 »
When my T3 ground to a halt Sunday I soon had two other Guzzi mounted riders pull up, but all they did was take the p155. But then they had just been at the same pub as me on a branch meeting.
Maybe they overheard you bulling up the virtues of a T3!

Offline metalflake11

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Re: Decarbonising my engine
« Reply #26 on: 19.04. 2016 14:49 »
Interesting this water/steam business. On a warm summers evening going through a mist due to crossing a river has always made mine improve noticeably. Good theories as to why.

However, I can confirm without any contradiction, that filling your tank with diesel does not have a good effect though, so don't do it!
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Offline kiwipom

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Re: Decarbonising my engine
« Reply #27 on: 19.04. 2016 22:20 »
hi guys, when water turns to steam it expands 1600 times its own volume, cheers
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