Author Topic: Wet sumping, pumps and sump plates  (Read 1231 times)

Online beezermacc

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Wet sumping, pumps and sump plates
« on: 24.10. 2016 23:45 »
I've had a problem with my trusty A10 wet sumping for quite while so, about a year ago, I fitted an anti wet sump valve which cured the problem. The oil return has always looked a bit feeble so I decided to take a sledge hammer to the problem! I know the original anti wet sump valve is in the crankcase half and I couldn't be bothered to strip the whole engine down to fix that. Even if you do a complete strip you don't know if you've fixed it until you've built it up again! So, I've fitted an SRM pump, on the assumption that the new pump, with tight tolerances, should prevent oil leaking into the sump, and I've removed the auxiliary anti wet sump valve. So far, so good! However, because I wasn't sure whether this would cure the wet sumping, I thought I'd fit an alloy sump plate with drain plug so I could drain the sump easily and measure sump contents after a week or so. The problem with the alloy sumps is they require you to retain them with allen screws. The problem is that the threads in the crankcase are short and every time you tighten an allen screw the threads are weakened. I've got loads of crankcases with knackered threads in that area. So, I've drilled the new sump plate with a 9.00 mm drill, but not all the way through, and used tappet cover nuts and 5/16 spring washers to secure the new sump plate. I skimmed the tappet cover nuts down to accommodate the washers and the resultant job is great! (Even though I say so myself!). So, I keep the original studs in situ, and the tappet cover nuts provide a greater thread-to-thread contact than the originals... nice, tidy job. I've given the bike a short run and no leaks, and over the past four nights, no wet sumping! Just getting a beer from the fridge!
Priory Magnetos Ltd - A10 spares, magneto and dynamo refurbs. www.priorymagnetos.co.uk

Offline trevinoz

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Re: Wet sumping, pumps and sump plates
« Reply #1 on: 25.10. 2016 00:08 »
I hope the beer doesn't leak out, Andrew.  *beer*

Online BSA_54A10

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Re: Wet sumping, pumps and sump plates
« Reply #2 on: 25.10. 2016 10:53 »
You will find your new set up woks a lot better if you turn it 90 deg and put the drain on the left side so on the side stand you can easily get to the drain plug and the plug will always be at the lowest point.
Even more important, should you forget to replace it or nip it up tight the oily crankcase fume will blow out to the left, find the hot exhaust and alert you to the mistake before the rear tyre is covered with oil.
Why every idiot who makes these sumps puts the outlet where it is very hard to access and blows directly onto the rear tyre God only knows but it is an idiot stupid piece of design.
Bike Beesa
Trevor

Online beezermacc

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Re: Wet sumping, pumps and sump plates
« Reply #3 on: 25.10. 2016 17:07 »
I've fitted it facing forwards which looks OK to me.
Priory Magnetos Ltd - A10 spares, magneto and dynamo refurbs. www.priorymagnetos.co.uk

Online bsa-bill

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Re: Wet sumping, pumps and sump plates
« Reply #4 on: 25.10. 2016 17:17 »
Quote
Why every idiot who makes these sumps puts the outlet where it is very hard to access

I have one on both bikes, both have the gauze being separate so allows you to fit it anyway you want
All the best - Bill
1961 Flash - stock, reliable, steady, fantastic for shopping
1959 Rocket Gold Flash - blinged and tarted up  would have seizure if taken to  Tesco

Online beezermacc

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Re: Wet sumping, pumps and sump plates
« Reply #5 on: 25.10. 2016 17:25 »
I think all the alloy sumps assume using a separate gauze so you can fit them any way you want.
Priory Magnetos Ltd - A10 spares, magneto and dynamo refurbs. www.priorymagnetos.co.uk

Online chaterlea25

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Re: Wet sumping, pumps and sump plates
« Reply #6 on: 25.10. 2016 21:10 »
HI All,
I fit the plates with the magnetic plug farthest away from the pickup pipe
I had trouble on a BSA single where the magnet held the ball in the pickup closed
On a few bikes I made longer studs to use instead of the allen screws
On my own SR the allen screws have worked fine for the last 15 years

On the A10 engines I build I convert the anti drain valve to the A50/65 position with the ball against the back of the pump

John
1961 Super Rocket
1963 RGS (ongoing)

Online ellis

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Re: Wet sumping, pumps and sump plates
« Reply #7 on: 25.10. 2016 22:23 »
Alloy sump, I have the drain plug facing forward which is easy to get to and it keeps the magnetic plug farthest away from the pickup tube.    *smile* *smile*

Offline coater87

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Re: Wet sumping, pumps and sump plates
« Reply #8 on: 25.10. 2016 23:46 »
HI All,
I fit the plates with the magnetic plug farthest away from the pickup pipe
I had trouble on a BSA single where the magnet held the ball in the pickup closed
On a few bikes I made longer studs to use instead of the allen screws
On my own SR the allen screws have worked fine for the last 15 years

On the A10 engines I build I convert the anti drain valve to the A50/65 position with the ball against the back of the pump

John

 John,

 I am able to do this modification, but I had a question. Do you lap some type of seat into the back of the pump body, or have you had good luck just using the pump as-is?

  I think I would feel better if there was a very thin seat lapped in but if its not necessary than why bother?

 Lee
Central Wisconsin in the U.S.

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Re: Wet sumping, pumps and sump plates
« Reply #9 on: 26.10. 2016 20:03 »
HI Lee,
Hmmm !!! ?? the €64M question
In my opinion lapping steel into alloy is a bad move, the hard carborundum will embed in the alloy
If you want to give the ball a little tap against the pump body, Remember the pumps are SOFT!!
The wider the seat the less pressure per sq mm

HTH
John
1961 Super Rocket
1963 RGS (ongoing)

Offline Tomcat

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Re: Wet sumping, pumps and sump plates
« Reply #10 on: 28.11. 2016 06:35 »
Here's what I did on the A65 sump as she wet sumps a bit.
'48 A7 '59 SR '74 850 Commando TDM900

Offline RichardL

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Re: Wet sumping, pumps and sump plates
« Reply #11 on: 28.11. 2016 13:15 »
In my opinion lapping steel into alloy is a bad move, the hard carborundum will embed in the alloy
If you want to give the ball a little tap against the pump body, Remember the pumps are SOFT!!
The wider the seat the less pressure per sq mm.

John,

Maybe you bit your lip when I've mentioned in the past that I lapped-in my oil retaining ball (in the case, not against the pump). Between the SRM pump, lapping the seat, and a new ball and spring, wet sumping has reduced to hard-to-detect, at least over two week periods. Not arguing with your point about embedded particles, but I don't seem to have any trouble form them. Of course, it's possible I should use a better measurement method than a quick peek past the tank cap.

Richard L.
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Re: Wet sumping, pumps and sump plates
« Reply #12 on: 28.11. 2016 17:41 »
Hi Richard,
If it works then don't complain LOL *smile*
An issue that can arise when the ball valve housing is modified so the ball seats on the rear face of the pump
(as on A65's) is that  the gasket (from the gasket sets or A65) is not a good accurate fit and even a few fibres can prevent the ball from seating properly  *problem*
I make my own gaskets very carefully, to avoid this problem
SRM are now selling a new improved gasket for the pump

Regards
John
1961 Super Rocket
1963 RGS (ongoing)

Offline bikerboy

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Re: Wet sumping, pumps and sump plates
« Reply #13 on: 16.07. 2017 23:53 »
Sorry to ressurect an old thread but,

John

What size ball and spring do you use for this mod? The same ball I assume but how about the spring?

Online duTch

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Re: Wet sumping, pumps and sump plates
« Reply #14 on: 17.07. 2017 04:12 »

 I think the spring may be slightly longer  *????* bought one from SRM a while ago with later intent... have a look on their site
Started building in about 1977/8 a on average '52 A10 -built from bits 'n pieces never resto intended -maybe 'personalised'
Have a '74 850T Moto Guzzi since '92-best thing I ever bought doesn't need a kickstart 'cos it bump starts sooooooooo(mostly) easy
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