Not oil circulation again?

[Slippery Sam]

Sorry to bring this up as I see it's been discussed a few times.
I've been reading intently but think I need further advice.
A10 roller conversion
crank end feed
SMR pump
Just finished the build (well far enough to need to run the motor)
Not getting an oil return.
I've split the feed pipe - getting oil from tank through gravity to the casing
removed the return pipe from the engine case - dry
removed the timing case - end feed reservoir dry
removed pump and primed on the bench - works fine
while oil pump was off - got good flow of oil from feed (gravity)
spring and ball right way round (ball on back of pump spring in oilway)?
replaced pump - getting good flow from the reservoir feed (connecting tube from inner case to outer case) with outer case off
Put outer case back on - no return
removed pressure relief valve - dry - sounds like a lot of compression coming out of there?

Where to look now?  why is reservoir not filling? (will take outer case back off tonight to double check everything (and fill the reservoir to help prime?))
my thoughts?
Could the Reservoir feed be too long and blocked off not filling reservoir? - will measure up tonight
gasket blocking an oilway when everything is fully assembled?
Can't see oil going anywhere esle and tank not draining - so not getting lost somewhere it shouldn't?
I tried blowing up the end of the crank - glad no-body was looking (the things you do!) - didn't feel particularly clear - but wasn't sure it should (am I trying to blow air through the BE shell clearance (small gap?))?
I've kicked it over loads (I actually bought/built a roller starter but having problems with fuses blowing and 13A supply (think I went too big on the motor)) - might take a night off and sort out the roller to save my leg?

Where else should I look?
Are end feed motors hard (take longer) to prime?
Can I pull oil through (syringe etc)?

Any tips or hints would be appreciated.

cheers Raymond.

[bikerbob]

 Out of all the things you have checked you do not state the first thing to check is you have got the oil pipes the right way round the top one in the crankcase is the return.

[Slippery Sam]

LOL - thanks Bob.
Pipes are right way round with the fittings clearly marked F and R (feed being the lower of the 2).  checked and proven by the pump working with the outer case off.
You're right - it was the first thing I checked - just forgot to state.

Cheers Raymond.

[orabanda]

Don't like the bit about the relief valve remaining dry!
In the original (bush bearing) design, the high pressure (ball or poppet) side of the relief valve is linked to the oil feed gallery into (around) the bearing. This connection needs to have been repeated / copied when the roller bearing mod was performed.

The best way to prime a new engine is fill the oil tank, remove plugs, remove oil relief valve, and turn engine over until oil finds it's way to the relief valve. It won't be too long before the oil dribbles out, and you can re-fit the relief valve confident of oil having primed the bush.

Have a chat to the person who did the mod.

Richard

[Topdad]

Raymond ,from memory the SRM conversion as the feed to the crank quill  altered in the outer timing case and seals by way of a red washer ,what state is yours in if not a good fit I think oil may not flow . Certainly don't remember any problems getting oil to return on mine and I used a old BSA pump.

[Slippery Sam]

Guess that's my main concern Richard.
Story is - bought the bottom end complte as a fresh build from a guy who didn't built it :-(
Build had mag tacho drive inner timing casing which I swapped out for an oil pump tacho drive casing and had SRM mod the inner casing for the end feed.
I have the original inner casing and will do my best to check oilways and make sure the newly modified case has the same feeds.  My understanding was that the inner casing wasn't that complicated and may have actually been as simple as drill a hole and insert a pipe?
There might be others on the forum with the end feed (or know how it works) that can point me at things to check?  Given it looks like the pump is pumping - I can't help feeling something is blocked?
Worst case I stick the original inner case back on and do without a rev counter for a bit.
PS - have kicked it over a lot (a real lot) - so don't think I just haven't given it enough time (the reservoir wasn't filling!).

cheers Raymond.

[Slippery Sam]

Todad,  Mine isn't an SMR conversion.  I know because I had them modify the inner case and they told me then it wasn't one of thiers.  My quill is sealed into the feed reservoir with a lipped seal which looks okay.  However this is yet to be proven - but should be simple to replace if needed (assumes I can find the right seal as not a parts list item and don't know the original builder).  I'd have thought a leaking seal on the end feed would cause oil to leak out into the outer case round about the pump area and that is still dry.
Raymond

[rocker21]

i wonder if that little valve next to the timing side main is not opening, trouble is the only way to get at it is to split the crankcase

[chaterlea25]

Hi,
You will be blue in the face trying to get the oil to circulate kicking over especially in winter time 

Get a pressure oil can ! fill it with whatever engine oil you are using ,
Remove outer timing cover
Use it to prime the crankshaft through the quill on the end, set pistons to the bottom of the stroke

Remove the feed pipe and inject oil in till it appears at the PRV, refit PRV and and keep priming until oil
comes out the oilway to the outer cover (this will be slow going)
Replace outer cover

Alternatively after priming the crank replace outer cover and with the spark plugs removed and the HT leads grounded, push the bike along in second gear till the oil comes out the PRV hole
replace PRV and push the bike back to the workshop keeping it turning over

John

[Slippery Sam]

Cheers John,
Think you're right - most other threads I've read all seem to suggest priming is a breeze - and in reality it's not always that easy! and the warmest it's been this week has been -3C so guess that will never help.
The good news is - we have oil - woop woop.
When I left it on Tuesday night (and wrote my sob story about no circulation) - I must have been about 3 kicks away from seeing oil!. 
Last night I went out and found a few drips of oil under the outer timing cover.  After removing - I discovered oil at the crank quill and the PRV.  The dribble was as a result of a leak on the crank end feed reservior (channel). after cleaning and testing I've found the leak so will get that sealed up and will fit a new shaft seal for the Quill.
I will be sure to prime the crank properly too - did give it a squirt at the point of building but will try to fill it this time.
I can't easily pull the bike out to take it a walk - and it's a crying shame to have a starter roller (brand new) sitting in the corner of the garage with a fusing problem - I think I do really need to take a night off and fix the roller out - as you say - I was nearly blue in the face kicking the thing on Tuesday night - LOL.

Thanks again for the words of wisdom guys - will report back when its completely sorted and barks into life.

Raymond.

[chaterlea25]

Hi Raymond,

The dribble was as a result of a leak on the crank end feed reservior (channel). after cleaning and testing I've found the leak so will get that sealed up and will fit a new shaft seal for the Quill.

Thats not good
I would like to see a photo of the inside of the cover showing the oilfeed ?
I only have experience of SRM converted engines and have seen a few photos of home brew setups but not too impressed with them

John

[Slippery Sam]

LOL
John, given its not the srm one - I reckon you will be underwhelmed!
I'd di ask them to do me a set of srm cases but they wouldn't do it without the whole bottom end and turnaround was too long for me so cracked on.
Will do a couple of pictures though.
Biggest issue with my set up was clearance for the srm pump. Ended up putting a chamfer on the pump casing to make everything fit.
Raymond

[trevinoz]

You may need to prime the sump pick-up as well.

[kiwipom]

hi guys, Slippery Sam unless you have a serious leak somewhere in he oil system getting oil round by kicking should not be a problem, I can get 50lbs pressure on the oil gauge from kicking with plugs out, cheers

[Slippery Sam]

Kiwipom, I think we're about there - now that most bits are primed.  I agree - with all new bits there should be no problems with decent pressure.  Initially until things did start moving, I wasn't concerned there was a serious leak because the tank level wasn't really going down.
Remember this a brand new build and although I used a squirt of oil on moving parts as I assembled - I didn't really anticipate the priming required for circulation (my first BSA build and still very much learning).  New, dry; oil tank, pipes, pump, PRV, end feed, crank journals, oilways, sump;  guess it's a dawdle to to replace any one part and re-prime it in a few kicks - however - for me it looks like it's a lot easier to push oil round the system than air - so took a lot of kicking.  The places I have been able to see oil move - it does look like a good flow now.  Just need to get my seals sorted on on the end feed and we'll be able to run it up and watch the return to tank.
Like I said in an earlier post - I think I started the thread about 3 kicks too early - if I'd just had a fag and a breather - then kicked for about 10 more seconds - we'd have had oil and no thread.

Thanks Raymond.