Author Topic: Clutch etc.  (Read 3021 times)

Offline Zander

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Clutch etc.
« on: 22.02. 2017 11:39 »
Chasing my tail with this bike!  Long story short: dynamo on, DVR2 fitted, wiring suspect, needs further remedial work.  Primary case is off so to stop the oil blowing out of the PC case screw holes I decided to address clutch adjustment and refit case prior to tackling electrics.  Needless to say that while I placed each screw from the timing cases to ensure correct assembly, I stupidly failed to take as much care with the primary case.
I take it that I should use a thread sealant on those screws, as well as taking care to get them in the right holes?
While turning engine over and watching clutch plate movement I noticed the primary chain moving in and out.  Removed the clutch plates and found there's about 2mm play.
Searched previous posts but only found one which applied, namely that there should be no movement ( apart from rotational) !! on the chainwheel, which makes sense, so
I take it that I'm going to have to have it all apart.
'59 GF

Offline Topdad

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Re: Clutch etc.
« Reply #1 on: 22.02. 2017 12:55 »
Hi , think positive ,you can't ride it yet due to crap weather so use the time now to enable you to enjoy the good weather when it comes.
first of ,which clutch do you have ,4 or 6 spring , the start by checking the whole clutch pull it to see if its play on the g/boxe mainshaft if its there you'll need to look inside the outer g/boxe cover and inspect the kickstart rachet .
If not  check clutch  centre nut . The 6 spring thing uses a race with small ballbearings which wear like crazy check them after that I'll await the real clutch experts ideas . Best of luck, Bob
 
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Offline Zander

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Re: Clutch etc.
« Reply #2 on: 22.02. 2017 13:10 »
Clutch centre and nut ok.  Play is on the clutch "basket"/ sprocket.  I take your point re doing whats necessary - I would rather sort it now than have to faff around with it during the better weather.  Usually, I concoct ways of holding things in order to carry out the various jobs that need doing on a bike, but with this one, a previous owner has gone to a lot of trouble to restore the bike to a fairly good standard.  Everything looks good - nuts and bolts have all the corners, new lock washers and so on.  I want to continue attempting to maintain the standard so I'll have to get the proper tools and work at it!  It's possible that I'll have the inner clutch case off to check the oil seal in the crank case, and also to get a better look at the gearbox, as my initial fears of a leak therefrom may be well founded.
I've got other bikes to ride, so I won't be stranded, but  am keen to ride this one!!
'59 GF

Offline cyclobutch

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Re: Clutch etc.
« Reply #3 on: 22.02. 2017 14:05 »
Hi , think positive ,you can't ride it yet due to crap weather so use the time now to enable you to enjoy the good weather when it comes.

Took mine out on Saturday, probably for the first time in months. No wet sumping and started within a couple of kicks. Reminded me again of just what a good ride this bike is. This is not intended as a gloat btw, we just had it dry, unsalted and really quite mild down here in the crowded SE.
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'58 Iron Head Flash Bitza


Online RichardL

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Re: Clutch etc.
« Reply #4 on: 22.02. 2017 14:52 »
With  6-spring clutch, it's possible to slip the basket ovsr the first row of ball bearings while not noticing that it hasn't slipped over the second row (DAMHIK). The balls fit loosely in their races and need to be held in place with heavy grease during assembly. I don't really recall how far you could get in final assembly of the clutch in this  condition, but it's woth a check.

Richard L.
Plan on signing up for the world-wide 2020 DISTINGUISHED GENTLEMAN'S RIDEon September 27, 2020 (if it's not cancelled and we are free to move about by then). Watch website at https://www.gentlemansride.com for details.

Offline Topdad

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Re: Clutch etc.
« Reply #5 on: 22.02. 2017 15:22 »
is it a 4 spring or 6 spring unit Zander ??
Hi Richard ,did I mention I hate 6 spring clutches lately ,i think you need to do a deal with old nick to get 'em to work  *contract* and what you mentioned is one of the reasons yuk!!
CB ,you're a swine sir  *cry*    ... but I couldn't go for a ride at the mo due a g/box spread across the garage  *problem*
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Offline Zander

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Re: Clutch etc.
« Reply #6 on: 22.02. 2017 16:52 »
It's a four spring clutch, Topdad, and thanks for the comments, folks - much obliged.  I stopped working on the clutch, and I MIGHT have sorted the wiring, but I'm not holding me breath!
Thought CB may have gone out on a Guzzi, until I read the wet sumping and kickstart bit *wink2*
'59 GF

Online RichardL

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Re: Clutch etc.
« Reply #7 on: 22.02. 2017 20:09 »
My 6-spring is running well right now. (I'm not superstitious but,for this, I'll knock wood. Hold on a second. OK, I'm back.) I've got comfortable grip pressure and I can slip easily from neutral to first without a clunk when the clutch is warm. Also, finding neutral is decent.

Richard L.
Plan on signing up for the world-wide 2020 DISTINGUISHED GENTLEMAN'S RIDEon September 27, 2020 (if it's not cancelled and we are free to move about by then). Watch website at https://www.gentlemansride.com for details.

Offline Zander

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Re: Clutch etc.
« Reply #8 on: 27.02. 2017 17:34 »
Delving a bit deeper today; got the centre hub off but held the chainwheel in place to observe the bearings and noticed a bigger than normal gap i.e. One roller missing!
And no, I didn't mislay one!  Getting it on the bench, everything measures correctly, no wear or damage anywhere so I therefore conclude that the lateral play I was concerned about, is built in and "normal".  It's a Triumph clutch and unbelievably, the extractor I bought back in the late '50's for my T100, fitted, which was a bit of a result. 
Also exposed the oil seal in the crankcase, which looks ok.  I now have to decide whether or not I go the whole hog and have the gearbox out to cure the oil leak.
Decisions, decisions🤔
'59 GF

Offline chaterlea25

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Re: Clutch etc.
« Reply #9 on: 27.02. 2017 19:01 »
Hi Zander,
There should be 20 rollers, 0.225 x0.250in
Some play and ""wobble" is usually a result of wear and "tolerance" *eek*
If a cush drive centre is fitted, then "extra" movement can be the result of wear in the cush drive plates/spider
Once the clutch is fully assembled there should be zero wobble

John
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Offline Zander

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Re: Clutch etc.
« Reply #10 on: 28.02. 2017 09:39 »
Hi John.  All components of the clutch look new.  There are 19 rollers in the assembly, measuring 0.250" dia. x 0.235" long.
I will measure the thickness of the ground outer bearing liner, but I know it will exceed the 0.235" length of the roller.  That is where the play exists.  The only other component that affects this is the clutch inner hub, the bearing face of which is flat.
Part No on clutch is Triumph 57 - 1549 and the clutch centre hub is 32-3235.  Will run a check on compatibility later.
Thanks for your comments.
'59 GF

Offline duTch

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Re: Clutch etc.
« Reply #11 on: 28.02. 2017 10:59 »

 I don't wish to split hairs  *bash*, but for reference only, as 0.235 is a non-measurement (5.97mm), I think the rollers are/is 14"x 15/64" / 0.234375'/ 5.9531mm but the roller is generally sold as a 1/4" x 6mm roller...?   *pull hair out*
Started building in about 1977/8 a on average '52 A10 -built from bits 'n pieces never resto intended -maybe 'personalised'
Have a '74 850T Moto Guzzi since '92-best thing I ever bought doesn't need a kickstart 'cos it bump starts sooooooooo(mostly) easy
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Offline Zander

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Re: Clutch etc.
« Reply #12 on: 28.02. 2017 11:22 »
Measuring the roller length they vary by a couple of thou, the majority being 0.235"long.
The outer bearing race in the clutch basket measures 0.236", so ok, if a bit on the tight side.
The step between the clutch centre shaft and the clutch inner drum where the rollers and chain wheel sits measures 0.262", giving clearance of 0.026".
Therein lies the cause of wobble.  My thoughts are to machine the shoulder to provide 0.005" clearance,  but I wonder if I'm overlooking the effect of heat in the assembly.
If I reduce the step on the centre shaft, I'll also have to skim a similar amount from the nose to retain the relationship between shaft inner drum so that it will lock, or make a new locking washer to compensate.  I'll do a bit more research before I attempt to machine the shaft.
'59 GF

Offline cyclobutch

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Re: Clutch etc.
« Reply #13 on: 28.02. 2017 13:18 »
Waaay – off piste (as usual for me), but in response to a couple of references here.

Ordinarily I use my little V50 for winter work, the old gal already being fairly challenged cosmetically. Anything ‘modern’ that requires its road tax paying for goes on SORN, and the old timers are tucked away whilst I keep a weather eye out for riding opportunities. In fact I rode the Veefer out from the Essex Badlands to the Dragon Rally up in N. Wales just a couple of weeks ago. On the Sunday after my A10 ride I was on my recently refurbished Sunbeam S7D. Took 20 minutes to start it, with the plugs coming out twice – second time to cook up on a torch. Finally got it going after removing the air filter and blowing carb clean down the hole. Grrrrrr.
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Offline Zander

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Re: Clutch etc.
« Reply #14 on: 28.02. 2017 16:43 »
To reduce the clearance I've machined a recess of the appropriate depth and diameter in the rear face of the centre hub, and made a washer to ensure the nut locks the assembly.  I'll do a trial assembly tomorrow to make sure the chain wheel spins as it should without the wobble.
To respond to cb I use my CB500 during the winter months, keeping my 750T snug in the garage. The oldies keep it company.
'59 GF