Author Topic: A10 Wet Sumping - other fixes ?.  (Read 23023 times)

Online RichardL

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Re: A10 Wet Sumping - other fixes ?.
« Reply #105 on: 10.09. 2013 12:45 »
Richard,

Excellent 3D (Brian, no need to apologize for your informative drawings). Not that I have an A50 or 65 to concern myself with, but it seems that the soft spring in the A10 might-well fully compress but the 50/65 version may not (did I not read that it was a stiffer spring?) leaving the oil route as circumnavigation of the ball, only, with the ball not obstructing the gallery. "Inquiring minds want to know."

Richard L.
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Online Brian

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Re: A10 Wet Sumping - other fixes ?.
« Reply #106 on: 11.09. 2013 06:44 »
Richard L,
             I am not sure exactly how the A65 system works other than Richards CAD drawing but any system that requires the oil to circumnavigate the ball plus rely on the spring tension being exact is destined for failure I reckon.

Whatever system is used the ball must move back out of the way of the gallery to allow uninterupted flow to the bush, anything else I think is potentially disasterous.

Offline sprint

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Re: A10 Wet Sumping - other fixes ?.
« Reply #107 on: 15.09. 2013 17:32 »
This is what I have fitted, no more wet sumping!

I have a 38 Rudge which is also fitted with a manual oil valve, so used to switching on first, but a small label on the speedo or rev counter is a good visual reminder.

Online Triton Thrasher

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Re: A10 Wet Sumping - other fixes ?.
« Reply #108 on: 15.09. 2013 20:32 »
This is what I have fitted, no more wet sumping!

I have a 38 Rudge which is also fitted with a manual oil valve, so used to switching on first, but a small label on the speedo or rev counter is a good visual reminder.

Patently unsafe.

Online bsa-bill

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Re: A10 Wet Sumping - other fixes ?.
« Reply #109 on: 15.09. 2013 20:56 »
I'm with you Triton Thrasher

On the balance of probability I trust a ball and spring more than I trust my memory (with or without visual prompts whose impact diminishes with every glance you give them)

All the best - Bill
1961 Flash - stock, reliable, steady, fantastic for shopping
1959 Rocket Gold Flash - blinged and tarted up  would have seizure if taken to  Tesco

Offline sprint

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Re: A10 Wet Sumping - other fixes ?.
« Reply #110 on: 16.09. 2013 09:22 »
Each to their own.

But I prefer something that I have direct control on rather than something that I do not, hidden ball and spring.

I also have a manual cut out switch with a label on it, so yes memory and visual queues can fail but to date it has not!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Online bsa-bill

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Re: A10 Wet Sumping - other fixes ?.
« Reply #111 on: 16.09. 2013 09:47 »
Quote
Each to their own.

Yep agree with that Sprint, no criticism intended in my mail *smiley4*
All the best - Bill
1961 Flash - stock, reliable, steady, fantastic for shopping
1959 Rocket Gold Flash - blinged and tarted up  would have seizure if taken to  Tesco

Offline a10gf

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Re: A10 Wet Sumping - other fixes ?.
« Reply #112 on: 16.09. 2013 10:47 »
Safety > switch connected to the magneto

http://carritek.com/newpage12.htm


A10 GF '53 My A10 website
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Online muskrat

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Re: A10 Wet Sumping - other fixes ?.
« Reply #113 on: 16.09. 2013 12:23 »
If I had to use one that would be it. It would work with points or electronic ignitions too.
One of mine wet sumps (badly) the other doesn't.
All vehicals have some sort of inbuilt fault. Wet sumping is one of ours. I have learnt to live with it. Not such a huge problem.
I figure that if I'm too old or frail to drain the sump now and then, I'm too old and frail to ride.
Not too old yet but am feeling a bit frail (bad back).
Cheers
'51 A7 plunger, '57 A7SS now A10CR, '76 XT500, '77 AG175 '83 CB1100F, '81 CB900F project.
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Online lawnmowerman

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Re: A10 Wet Sumping - other fixes ?.
« Reply #114 on: 16.09. 2013 13:43 »
I have been following this topic with great interest as probably every other A10/A7 owner has.

I had a one way valve fitted by the PO which solved the wet sumping but as the bike had not been used on the road since an engine rebuild, following advise from this forum I removed the ball from the one way valve before I used the bike on the road.

Since then I have suffered from wet sumping which, if left, will fill up the sump and eventually the primary chain case in a few weeks. As a temporary solution I remove the sump plug and leave it out after a run and let the oil drain into a filler can and keep putting it back into the tank through a gauze filter every week or so. This avoids having to drain the primary as well as well as the sump.

The Carritek valve looks similar to the Dove valve which I purchased a while ago but have never fitted. The problem with the Dove is that the oil pipe bore is suited to an AMC (which is what it was designed for) rather than a BSA and is too big for the BSA pipe. I know it is possible to use adaptors etc but there is not a lot of room below the oil tank to fit a valve and it would look like a dog' s dinner with loads of clips and adaptors running across the top of the gearbox. Fitting below the gearbox would involve burnt fingers on the exhaust when using the valve. I know the exhaust should be cool when turning the oil on but I would like to operate the switch after a run to check that the mag is killed.

I see no problem fitting a suitably sized valve with a kill switch incorporated as it is inherently fail safe. Even if the switch falls off the tap, provided the wires are still connected it will still kill the mag provided a "break" switch is used - ie the normal position of the switch gives a cicuit across the contacts meaning that the mag is killed. Another procedure after a run would be to use the oil switch to shut the engine off instead of the kill button which would prove the kill element on the oil tap is working. Personally I always take the oil cap off when starting to check the level and to ensure oil return.

The only risk element in the setup is if the earth brushes in the mag fail or if the wires fall off the mag end cap or the earth point or if there is a break in any of the wiring, or if the switch itself goes open circuit and allows the bike to be started with the tap closed. There has been a recent thread regarding the wrong type of carbon in mag earth brushes so there is a small risk. I appreciate that the above risks, although very small, may be too great for some and the only truly safe system has no risks at all.

Both valves mentioned above look to be standard plumbing ball valves with the nylon handles ground away to act as a cam to open the switch. This seems a bit crude and I think would be more sound if a metal tap handle and operating cam were fabricated. If the setup were to be used for coil ignition then a "normally open" switch would need to be used rather than a "normally closed" for a mag. Alternatively a changeover switch could be used which would cover either setup. The switches should be weatherproof (and preferably not made by Lucas *smile*)

The A65 non return ball valve system seems to be a bit suspect as the oil flow needs to pass around the ball so this does not appear to be a viable mod. According to other posts, replacing and reseating the existing ball and spring seems pointless as there is opinion that the return spring is too weak.

I do not have an answer for the wet sumping problem - I wish I did then perhaps I could make some money  *smile*

I will continue to monitor this subject in the hope that other members a lot smarter than me can come up with a solution.

Jim
1959 A10 SR
1938 Wolseley 14/60
1955 Ferguson TEF20 tractor
1965 Ferguson 135 tractor
1952 Matchless G80 rigid
1960 BMW R60
1954 Matchless G80S
1955 Ariel 500 VH
1951 Sunbeam S7DL
1960 Matchless G12 with Watsonian Monza
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Offline sprint

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Re: A10 Wet Sumping - other fixes ?.
« Reply #115 on: 16.09. 2013 16:50 »
Quote
Each to their own.

Yep agree with that Sprint, no criticism intended in my mail *smiley4*

Non taken.

Online Triton Thrasher

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Re: A10 Wet Sumping - other fixes ?.
« Reply #116 on: 16.09. 2013 20:18 »
Safety > switch connected to the magneto

http://carritek.com/newpage12.htm



The first thing to remember about interlocks based on microswitches is that they work perfectly until the day you need them.

Were the valve lever long enough to foul the kickstart, you could maybe argue that it's safe.  Until the day you bump start it, forgetting the valve.

Online beezermacc

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Re: A10 Wet Sumping - other fixes ?.
« Reply #117 on: 26.09. 2013 08:47 »
Various discussions about oil pumps and valves here so I thought I'd share an experience. My mate has a Super Rocket, nice bike but plagued with engine running problems, not least seizures when going up hill under load. The engine was built by SRM. We rebuilt the top end, gave the pistons a bit of a rub as there was only slight scuffing, then checked the oil return on first start up (as you do). My mate had a squint in the tank and proclaimed oil returning. I had a look as well because I'm nosey and like the reassurance of seeing things for myself - the oil flow was paltry - only an occasional bubble or squirt! Having a permanent black ring around my right eye from checking oil return on A10's I felt qualified to say the return flow wasn't good enough and needed investigating. The finger of suspicion pointed immediately to the anti wet sump valve so we ripped it off with the contempt it deserved..... only to find it made no difference! I decided that, unless there was something really weird going on, the problem had to be the pump (as there was no blockage in the supply route, the sump wasn't filling up with oil and the pressure relief valve looked OK). I picked a pump out of the drawer, rebuilt it, primed it and fitted it with a new gasket........ no difference. By now we were in 'Last Chance Saloon' so I decided to remove the SRM ball valve from behind the pump, just because it was the only thing left that was 'non-standard' even though I saw no reason why the ball should restrict flow - there was plenty of room either side of the ball for oil to pass and the spring was really weak. Hey Presto! A gush of oil from the return pipe the likes of which my mate had never seen before. My guess is that the spring behind the ball was so weak that when pressure was applied to the ball, particularly with new oil, the spring became coilbound so it transformed from an 'anti wet sump device' to an 'engine self destruct device'. 
Priory Magnetos Ltd - A10 spares, magneto and dynamo refurbs. www.priorymagnetos.co.uk

Offline Ethelred

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Re: A10 Wet Sumping - other fixes ?.
« Reply #118 on: 26.09. 2013 10:45 »
'scuse my ignorance, but why all the fuss about wet sumping. Surely they scavenge faster than they pump so it's self rectifying.

re manual valves - hands up anyone who's ever forgot to turn their petrol tap on....

I'm firmly in the KISS camp - less is more.
'59 A10

Offline Topdad

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Re: A10 Wet Sumping - other fixes ?.
« Reply #119 on: 26.09. 2013 11:30 »
I check my petrol taps at least every mile for the first 10 so God help me if I fitted a tap in the oilline I'd drive myself dotty checking it ! BobH.
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