Author Topic: A10 Wet Sumping - other fixes ?.  (Read 23005 times)

Offline alanp

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Re: A10 Wet Sumping - other fixes ?.
« Reply #15 on: 01.06. 2011 15:55 »
One other point, use of 20W50 oil will get you extra wet sumping if you don't have a valve in the supply line. The thin 20W slips through the pump etc quicker than straight 40 or 50.
Alan
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Offline Goldy

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Re: A10 Wet Sumping - other fixes ?.
« Reply #16 on: 02.06. 2011 14:30 »
This is the forums favorite topic and the answer is very simple. Clean out the non return valve seat and fit a new ball and spring. If it still wet sumps then fit an new SRM oil pump. Job Done simple as that.
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Offline alanp

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Re: A10 Wet Sumping - other fixes ?.
« Reply #17 on: 02.06. 2011 14:37 »
This is the forums favorite topic and the answer is very simple. Clean out the non return valve seat and fit a new ball and spring. If it still wet sumps then fit an new SRM oil pump. Job Done simple as that.
Yes, but I had SRM do all that for me and it still wet sumps....probably the 20W 50 oil though.
Alan
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Online bsa-bill

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Re: A10 Wet Sumping - other fixes ?.
« Reply #18 on: 02.06. 2011 16:09 »
lets not turn a wetsump valve thread into an oil thread folks. *fight*
They wet sumped long before 20/50 came on the scene, and Duckhams invented 20/50 (remember the green stuff) specifically for air cooled engines (motorcycles)
Have had to come in for a cool down, 25 in the shade in the shed
All the best - Bill
1961 Flash - stock, reliable, steady, fantastic for shopping
1959 Rocket Gold Flash - blinged and tarted up  would have seizure if taken to  Tesco

Online RichardL

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Re: A10 Wet Sumping - other fixes ?.
« Reply #19 on: 02.06. 2011 22:58 »
Wow, Bill, just when I was going to try to explain (or, have explained to me) viscosity index improvers and how they affect oil viscosity with changing temperature, you jump in and simplify my life. Much easier, thanks.
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Online bsa-bill

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Re: A10 Wet Sumping - other fixes ?.
« Reply #20 on: 03.06. 2011 10:07 »
UUMM - it has to be simply for me to understand it *doh*

Now then perhaps someone who knows a thing or to about viscosities (Manosound) could start a new subject explaining it, I got a big surprise when someone informed me that gearbox oil is measured using a different viscosity range than engine oil
All the best - Bill
1961 Flash - stock, reliable, steady, fantastic for shopping
1959 Rocket Gold Flash - blinged and tarted up  would have seizure if taken to  Tesco

Online groily

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Re: A10 Wet Sumping - other fixes ?.
« Reply #21 on: 03.06. 2011 12:00 »
have a read of this Bill - Greek to me too. Grabbed off the www somewhere  . . . starts making an oil thread I guess . . . .

Don't Forget the Gear Oil!

Maintaining a vehicle requires the use of many lubricants, each specifically designed to perform a certain task or set of tasks. The most common lubricant requiring routine attention from motorists is engine oil. Gear oil, on the other hand, is often-times overlooked when it comes to scheduled maintenance.

Gear Oil Basics
High quality gear oils must lubricate, cool and protect geared systems. They must also carry damaging wear debris away from contact zones and muffle the sound of gear operation. Commonly used in differential gears and standard transmission applications in commercial and passenger vehicles, as well as a variety of industrial machinery, gear oils must offer extreme temperature and pressure protection in order to prevent wear, pitting, spalling, scoring, scuffing and other types of damage that result in equipment failure and downtime. Protection against oxidation, thermal degradation, rust, copper corrosion and foaming is also important.

Gear Oil and Motor Oil Are Not the Same
Gear oil differs from motor oil. Most people assume that SAE 90 gear oil is much thicker than SAE 40 or 50 motor oil. However, they are the same viscosity. According to AMSOIL Technical Drivetrain Products Manager Kevin Dinwiddie, the difference is in the additives.


"Motor oil has to combat byproduct chemicals from gasoline or diesel ignition and should contain additives such as detergents and dispersants," said Dinwiddie. "Since an internal combustion engine has an oil pump and lubricates the bearings with a hydrodynamic film, the need for extreme pressure additives such as those used in gear oils does not exist in engines."

Engine oils and gear oils both have anti-wear additives, and they both must lubricate, cool and protect components, but gear oils are placed under extreme amounts of pressure, creating a propensity for boundary lubrication, a condition in which a full fluid lubricating film is not present between two rubbing surfaces. For example, differentials in cars and trucks have a ring and pinion hypoid gear set. A hypoid gear set can experience boundary lubrication, pressures and sliding action that can wipe most of the lubricant off the gears. To combat this extreme environment, extreme pressure additives are incorporated into the oil. AMSOIL uses an extra treatment of extreme pressure additives in its gear oils in order to reduce wear and extend the gear and bearing life.

Additional Differences
Because many of the components found in the drivetrain consist of ferrous material, the lubricant is required to prevent rust and possible corrosion to other materials. Rust and corrosion problems are not nearly as prevalent in engines

The many small and intricate components that make up gear sets found in the drivetrain can be quite noisy and may be subjected to shock loading. The viscosity and extreme pressure formulation of gear oil quiets gears and dissipates shock loading.

The rotating motion of the gear sets also tends to churn the lubricant, resulting in foaming. If a gear lube foams, the load carrying capacity is significantly reduced because the air suspended within the oil is compressible. For example, when the gear teeth come into contact with each other any trapped air bubbles will compress, therefore reducing the thickness of the separating oil film. In turn, this reduction could lead to direct metal-to-metal contact between gear teeth and result in accelerated wear. The gear oil must have the ability to dissipate this entrapped air, insuring a sufficient lubricating film exists to protect the gears from contact wear.

Typical Drivetrain Fluid Additives
Much like engine oil, the chemical compounds, or additives, added to drivetrain base stocks either enhance existing properties or impart new ones. Some of the additives that may be found in a drivetrain fluid include the following:

    * Extreme pressure and/or antiwear agents - These additives are used to minimize component wear in boundary lubrication situations.
    * Pour point depressants - This type of additive is used to improve low temperature performance.
    * Rust and corrosion inhibitors - These are used to protect internal components.
    * Oxidation inhibitors - These additives are used to reduce the deteriorating effects of heat on the lubricant, increasing the lubricant's service life.
    * Viscosity index improvers - These allow a lubricant to operate over a broader temperature range.
    * Anti-foam agents - These are used to suppress the foaming tendency and dissipate entrapped air.
    * Friction modifiers - The required degree of friction reduction can vary significantly between differing pieces of equipment in drivetrain applications, In some cases friction modifiers may be required to obtain the desired results.
Bill

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Re: A10 Wet Sumping - other fixes ?.
« Reply #22 on: 03.06. 2011 14:20 »
Many thanks Groily this is interesting, I'm off out so just had a quick read, will get back to it later tonight.
So it looks like the one place we don't want 20/50 engine oil is in the gearbox, I bet a lot of us do though, I have engine oil in there at the moment but this will change as I need to go in there to adjust/get more pressure on the gear change return spring as it wont return the lever when changing down to third and second.

Oops get a bit off wet sumping
All the best - Bill
1961 Flash - stock, reliable, steady, fantastic for shopping
1959 Rocket Gold Flash - blinged and tarted up  would have seizure if taken to  Tesco

Offline alanp

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Re: A10 Wet Sumping - other fixes ?.
« Reply #23 on: 03.06. 2011 17:12 »
It's my fault for mentioning extra wet sumping with 20W50...whoops I've said it again....sorry!
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Online groily

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Re: A10 Wet Sumping - other fixes ?.
« Reply #24 on: 03.06. 2011 17:37 »
All your fault Alan definitely! But interesting anyway - I've been using 20/50 since forever, in gearboxes and primaries too. They used to say there were additives in EP and HP gear oil which ate some bronzes, etc etc but I think that's history. It's all a labyrinth really, but I reckon most modern oils do most of what they say on the bottle and I just change the engine oil often and the rest hardly ever - annually if they're dead lucky. Hasn't done me any harm that I can tell. The A can sometimes wet-sump a bit and spit out of the breather, but not badly enough to want to open the thing up just to tap a ball bearing on the off chance it might cure it, and I do use oil feed taps with mag cut-outs on my AMCs, whatever the risk. You can spend hundreds on oil pumps and this and that with them and still have the problem. You kind of get used to a starting routine, and 'Oil On?' is the first bit of it for me, even where there isn't a tap!
Bill

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Re: A10 Wet Sumping - other fixes ?.
« Reply #25 on: 03.06. 2011 21:38 »
Hi Alan,
Going back somewhat on this thread, regarding the SRM "doings" on your oilpump
SRM use an A65 oilpump gasket, this has to be folded or cut into 2 pieces to fit
(instead of using a fibre washer which is a bad idea because the gasket and washer are made of different materials)
If the A65 gasket is fitted as 1 piece it wants to push outwards,
I found that this interferes with the ball seating on  the back of the pump  *ex* (this is the modded setup)
evem a thread of material stops the ball from seating properly
I make my own gaskets with tight fitting holes on the locating bolts and make sure there is enough clearance around the delivery oil hole. I include the 3rd mounting  as part of the gasket
This cured the wetsumping problem 99.9%  *smile*
Hope this makes sense ????

HTH
John O R
1961 Super Rocket
1963 RGS (ongoing)

Offline alanp

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Re: A10 Wet Sumping - other fixes ?.
« Reply #26 on: 04.06. 2011 08:04 »
Thanks John, SRM did the fitting of the SRM pump on a total rebuild of the bottom end last year. However, when I can risk even more oil stains on my garage floor I'll strip down the timing side to check, probably at the end of this riding season.
Alan
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Online duTch

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Re: A10 Wet Sumping - other fixes ?.
« Reply #27 on: 17.08. 2012 07:32 »
Well I read most of it- eyes went funny..
              was looking to see if I could find the specs(thread, length) of the Anti-wetsump valve grub screw.
 reason being, can we buy from any u-beaut suppliers, or, is it long enough to be replaced with a allen head grub screw(cut down a bit), 'cos the slot head one is not so easy to come out.......?? y know what I mean??
 It'd get checked more often if they were 'user friendly'..?
 
cheers duTch
Started building in about 1977/8 a on average '52 A10 -built from bits 'n pieces never resto intended -maybe 'personalised'
Have a '74 850T Moto Guzzi since '92-best thing I ever bought doesn't need a kickstart 'cos it bump starts sooooooooo(mostly) easy
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Re: A10 Wet Sumping - other fixes ?.
« Reply #28 on: 17.08. 2012 15:06 »
Hi  Dutch,
When I have an A10 apart I convert it to the A65/SRM setup
This involves openin up the hole in the case from the delivery of the oil pump to the grub screw so that the ball and screw will fit through
Then screw a grubscrew into the hole on the inner side of the crankcase to blank it again, then fit the SRM (A65?)
spring and ball, the ball seats on the back of the pump, maybe a tiny tap to seat it?? the wider the seating the less pressure on it!!
That way it is easy to access when required  *smile* *smile*

They also wetsump by oil leaking through the oil pump spindle / end plate and even through the porus metal pump body  *eek*
The only real answer is a new pump, combined with the modded valve

HTH
John
1961 Super Rocket
1963 RGS (ongoing)

Offline kommando

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Re: A10 Wet Sumping - other fixes ?.
« Reply #29 on: 17.08. 2012 18:33 »
Quote
They used to say there were additives in EP and HP gear oil which ate some bronzes, etc etc but I think that's history.


These oils that kill bushes have been history for many years, also the oil had to be over 100C before it starting attacking the bushes so in a pre unit gearbox they are safe anyway, the bigger problem is the oil never gets hot enough to drive out the condensation.
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