Author Topic: wet sumping  (Read 6282 times)

Offline rocket man

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wet sumping
« on: 07.06. 2009 15:29 »
here is a note from srm on wet sumping

We DO NOT recommend fitting any such non return valves on the feed side of the pump as gear pumps are not designed to suck with no oil in the body. This can result in instant engine failure.

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Online trevinoz

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Re: wet sumping
« Reply #1 on: 07.06. 2009 23:25 »
Amen!
Trev.
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Offline MikeN

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Re: wet sumping
« Reply #2 on: 08.06. 2009 10:33 »
Wet sumping is (one of) your engines ways of telling you there is something not quite right with it.
So it must be best to cure the cause and not treat the symptom.
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Offline dpaddock

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Re: wet sumping
« Reply #3 on: 07.09. 2009 19:45 »
Well, not exactly, although I agree that no valve ought to be installed in the oil supply line.
I fitted a petcock to the oil supply on my A10 Spitfire twelve years ago to prevent wet sumping, and used it for a year or so without forgetting to open it before each ride . Then one time I forgot!

It was summertime in New Hampshire - a hot day, actually - and I rode the bike for about five miles before the  left piston seized (I surmised this after taking off the barrel later and noting that the left piston was scored but not the right one). There was no other seizure damage, and I was able to restart the engine after opening the petcock.

My point is that in this instance there was no instant engine failure. It would appear that the normal residual of oil left in the crankcase after shutdown is sufficient to lube the engine for several minutes.

David
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David
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Richard

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Re: wet sumping
« Reply #4 on: 07.09. 2009 22:03 »
Regardless of what SRM say this device has been fitted to many A10's over many years without major incidents and in fact I have had one on my S/R for some years and covered several thousand miles without any problems, I suppose the secret is with anything to know what you have and when changing the oil to make sure the supply to the pump via the valve is primed.would you start yor BSA without oil inside the pump even without a valve fitted or would you make sure oil is returning to the tank first?, it is unlikley that with no weight of oil on the pump when not running due to a valve would ever drain the pump body completley
It is in SRM's interest to say such things as of course this leads to increased work for them as those that do not rebuild their own engines send it to people like them to repair
This valve has been used by manufacturers in one guise or another and has a proven track record and if looked into you will probably find that those that have had failures probably fitted it the wrong way around although you may not find any one to admit that!
This is just my opinion and I would be happy to fit it to any of my bikes as I did to a C15 some years ago with no problems
Richard
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Online trevinoz

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Re: wet sumping
« Reply #5 on: 07.09. 2009 22:13 »
Richard, you have been very lucky.
I have seen the results of one of these devices not operating. Very expensive!
  Trev.
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Richard

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Re: wet sumping
« Reply #6 on: 08.09. 2009 14:51 »
Trev
My middle name!!!
Richard
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Offline rocket man

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Re: wet sumping
« Reply #7 on: 08.09. 2009 19:23 »
ok then why are there still a lot ove BSAs around still
without a valve fitted if your engine is properly built
with everything right it wont wet sump i recon most
 ove you bikes have something wrong with them because
if they were right you wouldent need to fit a valve and also
i dont like what you said about srm they are a good bunch ove people
they dont say things just to make money theyve been doing BSAs
for a long time so they must know what there talking about


dave
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Richard

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Re: wet sumping
« Reply #8 on: 08.09. 2009 20:10 »
Dave
As I said it is only my opinion and I am sorry you have taken offence at what I have posted as non was meant.
Lets face it of course there is something wrong with an engine if it wet sumps however it means that to cure it totaly it must be srtipped right down and a valve is a much easier fix and like SRM these valves have been around for a long time as well.
As for SRM saying that the valves should not be fitted it is only there opinion, do they have facts and figures to support it? as many have been fitted without any of the disasterous results that they have predicted, that is not to say that they may not fail but can you say that your oil pump will not fail or your big ends will not go wrong.
It is a case of free speech or opinion and one must read things and ignore anything you do not agree with or have a healthy debate about it without getting upset.
So once again I am sorry you have taken it to heart
Regards
Richard
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Online bsa-bill

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Re: wet sumping
« Reply #9 on: 08.09. 2009 20:22 »
i dont like what you said about srm they are a good bunch ove people they dont say things just to make money they've been doing BSAs
for a long time so they must know what there talking about



Hold on Dave, I've been working on A10s for a long time now and don't tell everyone but sometimes I don't know what I'm talking about *whistle* and occasionally have one of those senior moments *doh*.

Now when I was much younger ( say almost fifty years ago ) I had an A10 that was practically new and it would wet sump if left long enough, normally it would be ridden three or four times a week ( home to White Swan and back ) but once or twice a year in busy times ( harvest ) it would not be fired up for maybe two three weeks, then it would wet sump.

Not really a great problem as long as it does'nt get on the rear wheel, I think today we expect everything to be perfect and strive to attain this with our old bikes, perhaps we should remember that as perfect as most of todays products are they are built to be bought and replaced, not bought and still be used fifty years later.

All the best - Bill
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All the best - Bill
1961 Flash - stock, reliable, steady, fantastic for shopping
1959 Rocket Gold Flash - blinged and tarted up  would have seizure if taken to  Tesco

Offline rocket man

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Re: wet sumping
« Reply #10 on: 08.09. 2009 20:46 »
its ok Richard i know what your saying and you must have
a good valve fitted but if they do go wrong thats your engine
that will suffer and i wouldent take the risk i spent 4000 pounds
on mine and i want it to keep going you could fit a sump kit
which has a magnet on the drain bolt to catch eany particals
ove metal then you simply drain the oil and put it back in the oil tank
or replace it with new oil also wouldent you have to make sure no
sludge from the oil tank gets in the valve as it might make it stop working
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Richard

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Re: wet sumping
« Reply #11 on: 08.09. 2009 20:55 »
Dave,
I have a filter fitted to the return and use semi synthetic, I also have an alloy sump cover with a drain plug in it but to be honest I do not wish to bother with having to drain the sump every time I wish to ride the bike after it has been stood for a while so I have the valve fitted.
I normally change the oil and filter every year although with a synthetic oil and the milage of 3 to 4 thousand miles a year on this bike I could leave it longer, but once any oil is drained out I would not pour it back in to the tank.I keep that in the old oil container and spray the baler with it at the end of the season
£4000 on an engine rebuild you must have had it done by someone like SRM!!!
Regards
Richard
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Offline a101960

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Re: wet sumping
« Reply #12 on: 08.09. 2009 20:57 »
Rocket Man, Just tell me this. Why is the SRM warranty voided if you use superior multi grade oil and an oil filter? If you value your engine you would not omit to fit a filter or use non detergent mono or multi grade oil in your newly built engine. Relying on a centrifugal tube which gradually fills up and blocks the oil supply from reaching the big ends is bizzare to say the least. Technology has moved on, and in their final years BSA were recommending multi grade oil. I have to doubt the wisdom of advocating the use of mono grade oil which contains no detergent, when clearly the sensible thing to do is to remove the muck with a good filtration system. When the Rocket 3 was released it was fitted with a full flow oil filter which can be retro fitted to the A10. I am not sure either what fuels the paranoia about anti wet sumping valves.  The principle employed by these valves was incorporated into the Veloctte lubrication system, and I am not aware of a plague of Velocette engines being wrecked due to this component. The problem of wet sumping is a by product of the laws of physics: gravity cannot be circumnavigated. All, and I do mean all A10s will wet sump no matter how new or pristine your oil pump is. The only negotionable variable will be how long it takes to do it. But rest assured it is not a case of if, but when. Here is something else to consider. I have read many times that one of the benefits of using mono grade oils is that the engine is less likely to leak, well that might be so, but I remain to be convinced. The other side of the argument which is much more compelling, is the fact that mono grade oil is much slower to circulate when cold, and your engine is deprived of oil at the very time that it really needs it, that is to say on start up. If you want to get decent life from your engine run it on synthetic oil with a filter, and always put Redex in your petrol. One final thought, if BSA were advocating the use multi grade oil that should be reason enough to use it. We longer turn mirrors to face the wall when lighting is about, or do we? some of us?
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Offline Lannis

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Re: wet sumping
« Reply #13 on: 08.09. 2009 21:22 »
ok then why are there still a lot ove BSAs around still
without a valve fitted if your engine is properly built
with everything right it wont wet sump i recon most
 ove you bikes have something wrong with them because
if they were right you wouldent need to fit a valve and also
i dont like what you said about srm they are a good bunch ove people
they dont say things just to make money theyve been doing BSAs
for a long time so they must know what there talking about

dave

I'm sure that SRM are a good bunch of people.

And I'm sure that there are lots of BSAs running around with non-return valves in the supply line.

However, my BSA engine was trashed (after 10 miles) of running with a Bri-Tie supplied non-return valve when it failed to feed oil to the pump.  When it was removed, oil immediately started flowing again, but it was too late for the engine.

The valve was returned to the dealer and the manufacturer and found to be operating as designed.

So, if you install one of these anti-wet-sumping valves in your oil line, you are in fact risking destruction of your engine.  Any hydraulic engineer will warn you about putting a check valve in the supply side of a suction pump.

That being said, I'm sure there are many BSAs this hasn't happened to yet ....

Lannis
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1961 A10 Golden Flash
1969 A65 Firebird Scrambler
1955 M21 Commodore
1935 Matchless Model X Project
1990 Moto Guzzi California III
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1986 Yamaha TT225 trail bike
1966 Morgan 4/4

Offline rocket man

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Re: wet sumping
« Reply #14 on: 08.09. 2009 22:02 »
okay lets all have a hug and make up each to there own i say
if eanyone wants to fit a valve do so i give up you win but
i wont be but thats my choice  i wont be saying eanymore
on the subject only srm have done a great job on my engine
worth every penny ive had a lot ove mods done to it stronger
con rods belt drive clutch srm oil pump needle roller convertion
with oil end feed quill  pumps oil directly to the big ends
bottom end good for 100,000 miles with regular oil changes


dave
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