Author Topic: A7 timing side noise  (Read 2636 times)

Offline anjimehra

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A7 timing side noise
« on: 08.07. 2017 06:12 »
Hi
Started up the engine. Running sweet but noisy valve gear. Oil flow adequate as oil reaching rockers, timing cover & hopefully the camshaft. Tappets set at .010. No end float on breather. Negligible back lash on gears. New cam bushes. Old rockers as replacements not available, but good fit on shafts. Any suggestions ?
Anji

Offline Sluggo

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Re: A7 timing side noise
« Reply #1 on: 08.07. 2017 09:15 »
I would have to consult the manual,, but 010 thou seems a bit loose in opinion.  Most Triumphs are 2 & 4 thou (2 on intake and 4 exhaust) but later manuals spec looser specs 4 & 6?  Nortons the same.

You say A7,, but that could mean a lot of things.  What year?  Early motors are pretty obscure but they were redesigned and many variables here.  Also,, history of the machine if known?  Are you certain its all stock and correct parts?  I never heard of a thick flange small fin A7 barrell until tonight when I just saw a picture of one on another topic.
I would imagine it might use different push rods.
So, are you certain all the parts are right? Coil bind? Rockers engaging valve tips correct?  Condition of guides? Bore clearances?  cam followers and cam in good condition?

I have been studying the early A7 variants and little personal experience on them but they appear difficult to adjust and service and obvious why there were redesigned.
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Online JulianS

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Re: A7 timing side noise
« Reply #2 on: 08.07. 2017 10:08 »
I think your engine is 1952 and starts AA7?  If yes then the valve clearances are as per the book and the exhaust is shown as 0.016 in some BSA service sheets.

Sometimes the spring washers locating the rockers and the rockers themselves wear at face of contact causing a clicking noise.


Dynamo chain not touching the timing covers?

Offline anjimehra

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Re: A7 timing side noise
« Reply #3 on: 08.07. 2017 10:18 »
I would have to consult the manual,, but 010 thou seems a bit loose in opinion.  Most Triumphs are 2 & 4 thou (2 on intake and 4 exhaust) but later manuals spec looser specs 4 & 6?  Nortons the same.

You say A7,, but that could mean a lot of things.  What year?  Early motors are pretty obscure but they were redesigned and many variables here.  Also,, history of the machine if known?  Are you certain its all stock and correct parts?  I never heard of a thick flange small fin A7 barrell until tonight when I just saw a picture of one on another topic.
I would imagine it might use different push rods.
So, are you certain all the parts are right? Coil bind? Rockers engaging valve tips correct?  Condition of guides? Bore clearances?  cam followers and cam in good condition?

I have been studying the early A7 variants and little personal experience on them but they appear difficult to adjust and service and obvious why there were redesigned.
Hi Sluggo
The bike is a 1952 plunger & was a Basket case ( actually gunny bags ) Engine parts were all genuine & the motor has been repowered ie sleeved, new rings, old Pistons which were fine, crank reg round new shells, new little ends, new guides, valves. New mains, & cam bushes. Idler gear bushes were OK.
.010 specified in the service sheets for plunger A7. Set on the correct stroke & cam position.
Followers not replaced but were not worn. Push rods not bent. Tapped contact on valve ok. Sound appears to emanate from the timing side

Offline anjimehra

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Re: A7 timing side noise
« Reply #4 on: 08.07. 2017 10:23 »
I think your engine is 1952 and starts AA7?  If yes then the valve clearances are as per the book and the exhaust is shown as 0.016 in some BSA service sheets.

Sometimes the spring washers locating the rockers and the rockers themselves wear at face of contact causing a clicking noise.


Dynamo chain not touching the timing covers?
Hi Julian
You're spot on, it's a 1952 plunger. Spring washers on rocker shaft correctly installed as per your illustration with no wear on the Al rocker box. Have oil stoned the tappet faces & the valves are new. Noise appears to be pronounced at the timing cover, but can't see what it could be
Dynamo chain not yet installed

Offline Sluggo

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Re: A7 timing side noise
« Reply #5 on: 08.07. 2017 18:42 »
It sounds like your engine rebuild was very thorough and you have the bases covered, So I am at a loss to suggest further.  There has been great progress on affordable Small micro cameras and on many forums many bike owners are using them to probe inside gearboxes and engines but It does not seem likely on your bike you could use a device like that.  I am sorry I cannot be more helpful.
Perhaps I can inspect in person with any luck in November? I looked up your area and with any luck I will be visiting India then. Its a long delayed trip but I am overdue to visit.  I have a friend there who manufactures some parts and will be on the lookout for interesting bike stuff as well.
I have a 53-53 Plunger A10 basket case-Gunny bag project I am currently piecing together (Not running) and if its helpful I am happy to pull some covers or take any pictures you might need.
Remember that any advice received on a free internet forum is generally worth about 1/2 of what you paid for it.
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Online muskrat

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Re: A7 timing side noise
« Reply #6 on: 08.07. 2017 19:56 »
G'day Anji.
My 1st thought is backlash in the gears. A click- clock will be heard at turnover by hand (plugs out) but usually disappears when running above idle. Could try taking the dynamo chain off and run the motor to eliminate that.
Cheers
'51 A7 plunger, '57 A7SS now A10CR,  '83 CB1100F, 88 FXST .
Australia
Muskys Plunger A7

Online Joolstacho

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Re: A7 timing side noise
« Reply #7 on: 09.07. 2017 01:28 »
Years ago I had a horribly rattly motor that took a bit of sorting, it turned out to be the tappets rattling, bottoming out in the cylinder barrel, caused 'we think' by camfollowers that had be stoned down a little, and possibly a camshaft that had been reground. Perhaps a PO has played around with things.

Offline anjimehra

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Re: A7 timing side noise
« Reply #8 on: 09.07. 2017 07:37 »
It sounds like your engine rebuild was very thorough and you have the bases covered, So I am at a loss to suggest further.  There has been great progress on affordable Small micro cameras and on many forums many bike owners are using them to probe inside gearboxes and engines but It does not seem likely on your bike you could use a device like that.  I am sorry I cannot be more helpful.
Perhaps I can inspect in person with any luck in November? I looked up your area and with any luck I will be visiting India then. Its a long delayed trip but I am overdue to visit.  I have a friend there who manufactures some parts and will be on the lookout for interesting bike stuff as well.
I have a 53-53 Plunger A10 basket case-Gunny bag project I am currently piecing together (Not running) and if its helpful I am happy to pull some covers or take any pictures you might need.

Thanks Sluggo. Are you coming for a bike ride ? My son & & I do bike rides all over India. Check out our website www.ventureonwheels.in Please let me know your travel plans. If you are in Pune we can split a few beers & you can see my bikes ( square 4, 52 flash, 1935 Velocette, 60 Dommi, 1950 Norton Inter 500
Thanks for the offer of help . Best of luck with your restoration.

Offline Sluggo

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Re: A7 timing side noise
« Reply #9 on: 09.07. 2017 08:52 »
I would love to see your bikes (And You too!  *smile*)  I am told by my friend Dave who was there for 6 months I have to ALSO go see Norton Singh,, who has something like 27 Nortons and even named his son Norton.  I have a special Norton America motorsports brochure signed by Kenny Dreer that I am gifting him.

My good friend Sobby has been trying to get me to come visit for several years...  *dunno*
And he has visited here multiple times.  We premiered his movie here in Oregon at the NW Vintage car & Motorcycle museum where I volunteer at and do promoting for.
We served Indian food,, it went over very well. 

See: http://www.nwcarandcycle.com/

Here is his Movie,, perhaps you are familiar or know Sobby? 
See: http://www.dirttrackproductions.com/ocr.html 

Cant miss him.  He is the really big Indian!
Sobby is also part of some sort of adventure riding club, so for sure I will get some saddle time.
I used to live in the Middle east and Turkey, so I am familiar with the driving/riding style.
There is a bit of a back story here...  *contract*  You see I was ran over on my motorcycle here in the US by a speeding drunk driver who was texting.  I was doing 45 mph, and she was doing 75-80 mph.  When she hit me I hit her windshield so hard the back window dislodged from her car.  By all rights I should have died that night.  The trauma center they took me too used me as a teaching tool for the medical students.   The truth is Ducati parts partially save my life.
(998 superbike alloy radiator) or saved my spine from paralysis.  Just to mix it all up I was riding a Harley.  Since then I have had a lot of health issues.. So, after several years I am getting active again working on bikes.  I also have many excuses why I have not travelled to India yet, but Sobby & his family seem very forgiving of my many problems.

So, the point here is, Not only am I coming to visit Sobby and his family, but I am working on some motorcycle products with him.  BUT........ *eek*
Sobby insists that I come to visit a very special shrine in India for people who have been in a motorcycle accident.  The Shrine is in the middle of the road and the road detours around it. 
Perhaps you know of this shrine?  Its a very interesting story about it.  Sobby says I am a story teller and I should come visit and tell the story.

So, My friend Dave Smith (Really! Thats his name, Customs and travel is fun with that name)
spent 6 months in India and travelled all over..He at one point needed a vacation from India so just like Bob Seger, he went to Katmandu.  That story is a story in itself and very interesting.
So, it was a few years back but you can read each installment of the India travels here...

http://www.nokilli.com/rtw/archives/000084.html

 (Or read about round Australia and New Zealand, If you only read one of Dave storys, my favorite is the installment in New Zealand which starts off slow but is a cracker and thrilling read.. "The world wars ate my bowels!"

Heres a picture of Dave at the Hollywood Oscars awards ceremony with Sandra Bullock and Keanu Reeves..

And here is Dave and Sobby, Dave grew a Salvadori Dali moustache for the India trip. That is also a story in itself.. 

Confused??? its okay, I have a head injury (TBI) I start the day confused and work thru it.  *countdown* *help*



Remember that any advice received on a free internet forum is generally worth about 1/2 of what you paid for it.
We overcharge every 3rd customer to pass the savings onto you.
You can have High Quality, Low price, and fast turnaround. Pick any 2, Never all 3 at the same time.

Offline anjimehra

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Re: A7 timing side noise
« Reply #10 on: 12.07. 2017 07:07 »
G'day Anji.
My 1st thought is backlash in the gears. A click- clock will be heard at turnover by hand (plugs out) but usually disappears when running above idle. Could try taking the dynamo chain off and run the motor to eliminate that.
Cheers

Hi Muskrat
Haven't mounted the Dynamo as yet Muskrat. Backlash is negligible. I have tried setting the tappets at .002 but no luck. Oil appears to be flowing as a lot comes out of the cover when I open it. It's a heavier sound than a clicking, more like a heavy tapping sound. Took the cover off, removed the plugs & turned the engine over slowly. The sound appears Once a Rev,  almost like the valve hitting the seat ! ! Springs are not binding.
Sound appears to lessen at higher revs but could be because of louder exhaust note.
Foxed !!

Offline anjimehra

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Re: A7 timing side noise
« Reply #11 on: 12.07. 2017 07:15 »
Years ago I had a horribly rattly motor that took a bit of sorting, it turned out to be the tappets rattling, bottoming out in the cylinder barrel, caused 'we think' by camfollowers that had be stoned down a little, and possibly a camshaft that had been reground. Perhaps a PO has played around with things.

Thanks joolstacho
Please see my reply to Muskrat. Camshaft did not show signs of reworking.

Offline duTch

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Re: A7 timing side noise
« Reply #12 on: 12.07. 2017 08:28 »
  May be a REAL long shot,  but do you have the stock studs on the Primary chain tensioner ? I know is not the side that the sound is,  but no other suggestions are working.
 If  you have non-standard studs in there,  maybe they're too long and banging on the crank Web (or crank web is banging on them) -once per revolution
  *dunno*
Started building in about 1977/8 a on average '52 A10 -built from bits 'n pieces never resto intended -maybe 'personalised'
Have a '74 850T Moto Guzzi since '92-best thing I ever bought doesn't need a kickstart 'cos it bump starts sooooooooo(mostly) easy
Australia

Online chaterlea25

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Re: A7 timing side noise
« Reply #13 on: 12.07. 2017 22:19 »
Hi All,
Anji, Have you tried the screwdriver stethoscope to try and localise the noise?

I have just put the top end back on an A65 that blew out the base gasket *eek*
on examination I found that the pistons were hitting the old head gasket *ex*
I bored out the new gasket hole by 1mm
I remember on one occasion where this happened to a Tri**** and made a loud tapping noise on every revolution !!!

John
1961 Super Rocket
1963 RGS (ongoing)

Offline edboy

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Re: A7 timing side noise
« Reply #14 on: 13.07. 2017 02:17 »
a valve adjuster is not hitting the rocker cover is it? that makes a row.