Author Topic: Advice needed - engine tightening up - help - tips  (Read 14534 times)

Offline dpaddock

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Re: Advice needed - engine tightening up - help - tips
« Reply #105 on: 05.09. 2009 22:36 »
This is one of the best and most informative set of postings yet! Thanks to all for your inputs.

Two comments:
     - add a dollop of STP to the oil to restore lubricity to our "modern" formulations (which have fewer of those additives in order to keep automotive catalytic converters from dying prematurely). This will help preserve cam and follower surfaces (an important issue since A7/A10 followers cannot rotate);
     - the drive side crank journal is the last item lubricated before the oil is flung off to lubricate the LH cylinder bore. This is why the LH crank journal, rod bearing and piston almost always appear distressed compared with the RH. In racing extremes, the LH side gives up the ghost first. This is the major reason why it's so important to change oil frequently - and to ensure the sludge trap is clear.

David
David
'57 Spitfire


Offline chaterlea25

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Re: Advice needed - engine tightening up - help - tips
« Reply #106 on: 05.09. 2009 23:17 »
Hi Nigel and All,
I have seen holes in the castings like you have, normally no problem unless they go go right through *ex* *ex* *ex*
Its the scoring in your pump that has it wrecked, remember its now at least 60 odd years old!!
The porus pump bodies I have come across look bad from the outside, the alloy (??) looks crappy and crumbly
The new pumps use A65 gears which are wider so you get more oil circulating
Apparently when BSA closed there were tens of thousands of oil pump gears left surplus
These are now being used for the new pumps
Nigel, fitting an oil filter on the pressure side of the system should be after the pump, it can be done if an SRM type conversion is done!
There should be NO restriction in the feed from the tank to the pump
If you clean out the tank properly there will be clean oil for the engine
I have a filter in the return line so the return oil to the tank is always clean, I also put a magnetic drain plug on the tank and a magnetic plug in the sump plate as well!
After a couple of oil changes on the rebuilt engine it now doesnt have any crud on the magnets and the tank stays  really clean!!
HTH
Cheers
John O R
1961 Super Rocket
1963 RGS (ongoing)

Offline trevinoz

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Re: Advice needed - engine tightening up - help - tips
« Reply #107 on: 05.09. 2009 23:39 »
Why is everyone getting so excited about oil pressure? The reason pressure gauges were removed from motorcycles was precisely because what is happening here.
If you look at the late model bikes with oil warning lights, you will find the switch is set at something like 7 P.S.I.
It is probably more important to have high volume than high pressure.
By all means replace badly scored housings and worn gears as gear pumps rely on minimal clearances to maintain supply.
I have been involved with A engines for more than forty years and have not had one fail due to oil problems.
I always strip and inspect the pump and then test it by submerging it in oil and driving it to ensure it is working.
I strip the pressure relief valve and ensure the ball and seat are in good nick, I have found some with really bad seats.
Replace the spring if necessary.
I have had a failure exactly the same as the start of this subject which was due to the machinist boring the barrel too tight.
If you disagree with me, please don't abuse me.
Trev.

Offline nigeldtr

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Re: Advice needed - engine tightening up - help - tips
« Reply #108 on: 06.09. 2009 08:08 »
Hi all,

firstly, thanks for the replies really useful. A couple of weeks ago, I spoke to a specialist oil supplier for classic vehicles and started of with SAE 40. However, with about 30C ambient temperature the bike warmed up quickly and the oil got very thin ? difficult to fine more 5 psi when hot, hence the switch to SAE 50. The only problem is, the thicker the oil the slower it gets where it is needed and initially does not flow around well enough. Ideally we need good pressure and high volume lower viscosity, gets everywhere, lubricates and cools! As the engine wears, oil pressure drops etc and pressure is still important to keep the bearing faces apart under load. The oil supplier said I should be pleased with 5 to 10 psi as the pressure at the big ends, due to the centrifugal forces, will be really high (provided oil ways are not blocked!) and without pushing the engine hard, the crank will hopefully be ?floating? in the main bearing.

Now the real drive for all this investigation ? as discussed from earlier, not only did my piston seize, but the cam followers where shot. If the camshaft only gets its feed when the release valve opens, then we need oil pressure! I feel sure that the only time the valve opens is when the engine is either new, has no leaky bearings, or the oil is cold and thick. To me you would need a very high pressure/volume oil pump to have this especially with an operating oil temperature of say 70C on an SAE 30 oil. As mentioned in the discussions, I suspect that the oil trough fills when the engine is cold or cooled and is topped up from the oil running down from the rocker box when at normal running temperature.

Forming conclusions
When putting the engine back together, I also checked the timing and noticed it was way too advanced. My conclusion is that the seizure was due to 1. a tight bore and 2. over heating due to the extremely high combustion temperatures. The last time I ran before the strip, I did notice it was a bit oily smokey around the barrels and head. At the time, thought nothing of it, just a hot day +30C but in hindsight, this was probably a warning indicating the timing was wrong and she was about to seize on me. More oil may have helped to cool things down but I doubt that it would have made the difference.

I would love to see the pressure about 20 psi on a SAE 30 or 40, which would give me good flow, and cooling. Once I have a new pump, I will test again and see how we get on.

PS as the oil I am using has no additives, I will definitely pop in some molyslip or similar once I am run in ? hopefully I get that far this year. As new sump with magnet has picked up plenty of muck. Look forward to getting a filter inline!

John, where did you get the filter from?

Nigel
1951 Golden Flash (engine now rebuilt) 1953 M21 a pain to start and 1961 GF that is turning into a black hole!

Offline chaterlea25

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Re: Advice needed - engine tightening up - help - tips
« Reply #109 on: 06.09. 2009 17:15 »
Hii Nigel,
I am against using extra additives in the oil, your supplier probably meant that it was detergent free, all engine oil has additives, its a long way away from what comes out of the ground!!!
I have seen additives block screen filters, its so gooey it wont flow through them, *eek* *eek*
Back in the 70's/80's I had to repair a lot of BMC minis /1100's that wrecked the transfer gear/bearings from the crank to the gearbox, every one of them had had STP/Molyslip type additives added to the oil!!!
The additives coat the neele roller bearings and reduce the clearance in the bearings, then they over heat and fail

Attached is a pic of the filter setup on my SR, I am using a Norton commando type filter head, I think I bought it from Bri tie, anyway they are commonly available.
I fitted this in the toolbox with the pipe connection stubs protruding through the rear of the toolbox
These heads have a 16mm filter thread, not too common nowadays,
In the pic you can see me holding a threaded brass bush
this is a 16/20mm electrical conduit adaptor
I had to bore out a couple of threads at the nut end and then it screws on over the 16mm stub on the housing
Now I can use a much smaller filter available at any motor factors!! (And cheaper to boot!)
It also leaves me with a useful amount of space left in the toolbox,
I have mounted my Podronic regulator under the seat
HTH
Regards
John O R
1961 Super Rocket
1963 RGS (ongoing)

Offline nigeldtr

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Re: Advice needed - engine tightening up - help - tips
« Reply #110 on: 10.09. 2009 21:21 »
Well pump, drive, filter and other bits all arrived today ? super service from Draganfly! I have taken the oil tank off to give it a clean but what is the best way of getting rid of the sludge in the bottom?

John, thanks for persisting on the pump front, a painful but necessary investment!

Nigel
1951 Golden Flash (engine now rebuilt) 1953 M21 a pain to start and 1961 GF that is turning into a black hole!

Offline Rusty nuts

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Re: Advice needed - engine tightening up - help - tips
« Reply #111 on: 11.09. 2009 08:50 »
I use a petrol paraffin mix, blank everything off & do the old Tom cruise "Cocktail" shake, as many times as needed , then blow it out with an airline.
Others use a pressure washer, if you go that route definately use & airline to rid residual moisture & cook in the oven.
Cheers
1949 A7 Plunger
1947 A7 Rigid Star Twin
1969 Triumph T120R
1972 Triumph T120V

Offline LJ.

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Re: Advice needed - engine tightening up - help - tips
« Reply #112 on: 11.09. 2009 09:47 »
Quote
Others use a pressure washer, if you go that route definitely use & airline to rid residual moisture & cook in the oven.

That's a *good* tip... I've not thought to do that after pressuring!
Ride Safely Lads! LJ.
**********************
1940 BSA M20 500cc Girder/Rigid- (SOLD)
1947 BSA M21 600cc Girder/Rigid-Green
1949 BSA A7   500cc Girder/Plunger Star Twin-(SOLD)
1953 BSA B33  500cc Teles/Plunger-Maroon
1961 BSA A10  650cc Golden Flash-Blue
1961 BSA A10  650cc Golden Flash-Red

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Re: Advice needed - engine tightening up - help - tips
« Reply #113 on: 11.09. 2009 10:31 »
A trace of water in the oil tank isn't the end of the World.  In normal service some water always gets into the oil.  I clean tanks with petrol, kerosene or similar as available and then  with hot water and detergent, rinsing with hot water.  I shake out the water and put something oily in the tank to stop the rust forming.

Offline nigeldtr

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Re: Advice needed - engine tightening up - help - tips
« Reply #114 on: 11.09. 2009 21:28 »
Thank you for all the tips re the tank cleaning. Gave it a bit of everything and even put in a box of small nuts to knock off any loose bits makes quite a good maraca!! Dried it out by resting a hot air gun in the filler end and leaving for a few minutes.

Just managed to fit the oil filter and do the pipe work - what a pig of a job, my fingers are in shreds. Tomorrow all the bits will be taken off again, given another good clean then put back together and hopefully fired up.
1951 Golden Flash (engine now rebuilt) 1953 M21 a pain to start and 1961 GF that is turning into a black hole!

Offline nigeldtr

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Re: Advice needed - engine tightening up - help - tips
« Reply #115 on: 12.09. 2009 19:54 »

Well finally got the GF fired up this evening and running fine. SRM pump fitted and oil filter in the return. Took her out for a run and once warm the oil pressure sits at a good 20 to 30 psi which is double that prior to the new pump. Considering the timing side main bearing is very worn, this is for me is a good result and I can get a few gentle miles in before stripping to replace the main.

I am sure you know how its is, hours of work wasted and feeling rotten about unfinished work and problems, well thats how it was at lunch time. It took me ages to get the filter pipework sorted out and to make a suitable bracket to mount the filter on. With this done, I then went to do the enjoyable bit ? fit my new oil pump! Well unpacked a very nice looking pump, grabed the new worm, lockwasher and new locknut (did not want to reuse the old ones looked a bit worn). Primed all the oil ways, offered up the new pump and worm and bingo, found that the new worm wound not start on the thread properly too tight. Took it off, and tried the new lock nut, the same, both where too tight on the crank threads. Having screwed up many good threads in this manor I immediately, put the new ones to one side and refitted the old ones (not happy about this, another half fix).  O well, lets finish this off now, I thought, put it all back together, kicked her over several times without the plugs in to make sure oil came through to the release valve, fine. Ready to fire her up, now the real fun started, along with the engine!

While I was listening to the wonderful exhaust note and dreaming of the open road, as I waited for the oil to return to the oil tank, I suddenly heard what was a sort of soft "pop" and oil went everywhere. The sealing rubber ring at the top of the filter had blown out the side and what a mess, all over the drive. Well, clean up and try again, but tighten the filter properly this time. With a  lovely clean bike, soiled drive and tight oil filter, I fired her up again and yuup "pop" it went again, even more oil on me the bike and the drive! Well time to scratch my head and wipe the oil off my face. Well perhaps SAE 50 is too thick for the filter and the new oil pump too good, hate to think what the pressure in the return pipe must have been! O well, try swapping the oil out for lower viscosity oil ? even more mess. All back together again and sure, you guessed it "pop" ? all over me, the bike and the drive again. I am now ready to hang up my boots *sad2*.

Well after a cup of tea and tranquilisers and a good clean, I decided to check through for blockages, oil filter off, filter pressure relief in the filter working ok, blew through all the pipes with air ? no blockages there  seems to be nothing wrong? Well last thing to check for a blockage is the filter head can't be anything here I thought this is new!  You would not believe it but they had not drilled the return oil way completely through, no wonder the oil filter popped its gasket! Everything off again, drill out the filter head clean and put back togeter AGAIN and yuup, all working fine. Typical, even though I had immersed the filter head in cleaner and throughly blown it off before fitting,  I simply forgot to check that the holes went all the way through!

I shall contact Draganfly on monday so they can perhaps look at the other filter heads they have in stock before there is another victim. A bit ***** about the worm, and lock nut as I wanted to replace these with the pump, poor quality control or perhaps non? Perhaps the ones from SRM are better?

All's well that ends well *smile* *ex*

Nigel

1951 Golden Flash (engine now rebuilt) 1953 M21 a pain to start and 1961 GF that is turning into a black hole!

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Re: Advice needed - engine tightening up - help - tips
« Reply #116 on: 12.09. 2009 21:34 »
If the timing side bush is "very worn" you are making a mistake by not fixing that problem and not very carefully checking the big ends with the crankshaft out of the bike.

SAE50 oil is usually too thick when cold, for satisfactory use in ther UK, but this problem of sealing rings blowing out of filters is a new one on me.

I've been wrong before, but I think you are on course for a mechanical disaster.

Offline nigeldtr

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Re: Advice needed - engine tightening up - help - tips
« Reply #117 on: 13.09. 2009 08:19 »
Appreciate the comments, but the main will have to wait. We have glorious weather here 25-30C so I am off out for a run! If you see a load of bits on ebay for sale then you will know the worst has happened. All going, well I will strip it over winter - does anyone know where I can get an engine from ? rebuilt or not?
1951 Golden Flash (engine now rebuilt) 1953 M21 a pain to start and 1961 GF that is turning into a black hole!

Offline a10gf

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Re: Advice needed - engine tightening up - help - tips
« Reply #118 on: 13.09. 2009 10:49 »
Quote
Well finally got the GF fired up this evening...after a cup of tea and tranquilisers...
Quote
If you see a load of bits on ebay
LOL

Nigel, great reading. All those totally unexpected things that happens, will happen, and can happen, always adds something special to the adventure of riding, owning & maintaining!

A10 GF '53 My A10 website
"Success only gets you a ticket to a much more difficult task"

Offline nigeldtr

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Re: Advice needed - engine tightening up - help - tips
« Reply #119 on: 13.09. 2009 13:11 »
Hi John,

Thanks for the comments. I think I have had my fill of the "unexpected" for now, just need some good weather and NO problems *smile* When it all happened yesterday, I almost burst out laughing myself. When the filter ring popped out for the last time, I was bending down, looking closely to see what was happening, at least the oil was clean! If I had been watching from a distances, I would have burst my sides laughing.

As you say all part of the fun *ex*

PS what is the type of the "smaller" oil filter you mentioned earlier as I will fit one when I next change the oil?

Nigel
1951 Golden Flash (engine now rebuilt) 1953 M21 a pain to start and 1961 GF that is turning into a black hole!