Author Topic: dynamo belt drive - to grease or not to grease  (Read 1578 times)

Offline duTch

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Re: dynamo belt drive - to grease or not to grease
« Reply #15 on: 31.10. 2017 07:47 »

 I added a SRM Belt drive kit after my rebuild, and I ran it dry and it lasted about 3K miles before it started shredding some shards...made it a bit further and spat....didn't break, just stretched and went flaccid.

 I replaced it with I think a comparative Gates product that I bought from my bearing supplier (with a spare), and have done about 6Kmiles since. In all fairness, even though I adjusted it as advised, (able to turn it 90º..?- that's open to interpretation *conf*), so I gave the replacement a bit more slack. They can only have so much before the slack will *potentially* rub on the inner case screw boss, so split the difference (or something along those lines). It's all documented on another thread somewhere. (somehow I think the forum has too many  threads running on similar issues, would be good to somehow keep them contained- maybe by better use of 'search and destroy' but that's food for a different topic)...

   I also think I didn't bother initially with lube on the belt because I wasn't sure how the whole show was going to run after the rebuild (me of little faith), but *touchwood* has progressed much better than anticipated *smile*


Started building in about 1977/8 a on average '52 A10 -built from bits 'n pieces never resto intended -maybe 'personalised'
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Offline mikeb

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Re: dynamo belt drive - to grease or not to grease
« Reply #16 on: 31.10. 2017 07:49 »
Quote
Have a look at Dynamo Regulators Ltd as they do a comparable kit...

and the with the dynamo regulators one i think you can remove the dynamo with pulley attached - srm you cant get it through the casing and have to remove the pulley first. i wish i'd bought the dynamo regs one.
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Offline duTch

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Re: dynamo belt drive - to grease or not to grease
« Reply #17 on: 31.10. 2017 08:46 »

 another thing to consider is that I believe later versions of one or some are in a 15mm wide version, as opposed to the 10mm wide ones, which makes sense to me.

 Actually, it really wouldn't be so hard to knock up whatever one chooses if the means are available (if Shirley allows it *conf*)
Started building in about 1977/8 a on average '52 A10 -built from bits 'n pieces never resto intended -maybe 'personalised'
Have a '74 850T Moto Guzzi since '92-best thing I ever bought doesn't need a kickstart 'cos it bump starts sooooooooo(mostly) easy
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Online groily

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Re: dynamo belt drive - to grease or not to grease
« Reply #18 on: 31.10. 2017 09:49 »
Quote
and the with the dynamo regulators one i think you can remove the dynamo with pulley attached - srm you cant get it through the casing and have to remove the pulley first. i wish i'd bought the dynamo regs one.

You can, and it is an advantage. The belt is 15mm. (Without grease) my SRM belt did many years and is still OK (but the driving pulley isn't). The Dyn Regs replacement is easier to get on and off, has slightly increased gearing I think compared to others, and is working well for me. With the 20% step-up, the dyn now rotates at the same speed relative to the engine as does the dynamo on a magdynamo. Balances loads, 12v system, at very acceptable rpm.
With all of them there is the occasional need to relieve a bit of inner timing cover with a burr as the thickness of the ribs can vary, but we're talking a few thou, not great chunks, just to get clearance.
Bill

Offline RoyC

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Re: dynamo belt drive - to grease or not to grease
« Reply #19 on: 31.10. 2017 10:18 »
Quote
and the with the dynamo regulators one i think you can remove the dynamo with pulley attached - srm you cant get it through the casing and have to remove the pulley first. i wish i'd bought the dynamo regs one.

You can, and it is an advantage. The belt is 15mm. (Without grease) my SRM belt did many years and is still OK (but the driving pulley isn't). The Dyn Regs replacement is easier to get on and off, has slightly increased gearing I think compared to others, and is working well for me. With the 20% step-up, the dyn now rotates at the same speed relative to the engine as does the dynamo on a magdynamo. Balances loads, 12v system, at very acceptable rpm.
With all of them there is the occasional need to relieve a bit of inner timing cover with a burr as the thickness of the ribs can vary, but we're talking a few thou, not great chunks, just to get clearance.
If I am reading you correctly, you are saying that the dynamo regs one is easier to install and may be a fractionally better buy than the SRM one?
My bike is a 1958 A7SS
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Online morris

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Re: dynamo belt drive - to grease or not to grease
« Reply #20 on: 31.10. 2017 12:57 »
I have Dynamo Reg on both plunger and SA. On for about 5K miles now and at last inspection still as new.
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Re: dynamo belt drive - to grease or not to grease
« Reply #21 on: 31.10. 2017 16:25 »
Yes, I'd describe the Dyn Reg one as a natural development of the concept and it is probably a nudge 'better'.
The wider belt can't hurt if the quality passes the "Sluggo test" (haven't checked!), the ease of getting the pulley and dynamo in and out together is pleasing and makes doing that nut up a bit easier, plus extraction of both pulleys is easier.

Nothing very wrong with the SRM one though to be fair. But I was always nervous about the fit of the driving pulley on mine; the male taper on the bike looked good and it holds the new kit just fine, but I had periodic problems. I machined the centre of the alloy pulley and fitted the steel centre section of the old sprocket for what I hoped would be a bullet-proof fit. But in the end the re-riveting failed - which shows either that I made a bollox of it  (tho' they were steel) or that there is a surprising amount of load - and load reversal - on that part. Hence buying the Dyn Reg box of tricks last year.
Bill

Online Rex

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Re: dynamo belt drive - to grease or not to grease
« Reply #22 on: 31.10. 2017 17:54 »
The question isn't really how wide the belt is, but what applications the belt is designed for, ie, what it's made of.
Some toothed belts are intended for light use, such as driving printer heads etc while others are steel banded or made of polyurethane etc and are for industrial use.
Some years back I was working somewhere where I had access to a large variety of toothed belts and pulleys, and so my pet project was to install a kit on my Indian Chief (a bike with a notoriously poor charging system...which given that it is coil-and-points ignition, was a big disadvantage).
Adapting the pulleys was easy enough with the machine tools available, but several different belts (including lengths) had to be tried as the belt would strip it's teeth on a regular basis.
The problem was that the engine would always stop on compression and "bounce back" and the inertia of the dynamo armature was doing the damage to the belt. I never did get it working reliably, and a mate brought a new Cycle Electrex dynamo with integral reg back form the States, and that, complete with the traditional Vee belt drive, means I now have juice to burn.
Anyway, it seems that the BSA kit sellers have this problem sorted, although packing with grease just sounds wrong.

Online KiwiGF

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Re: dynamo belt drive - to grease or not to grease
« Reply #23 on: 31.10. 2017 19:03 »

 I added a SRM Belt drive kit after my rebuild, and I ran it dry and it lasted about 3K miles before it started shredding some shards...made it a bit further and spat....didn't break, just stretched and went flaccid.

 I replaced it with I think a comparative Gates product that I bought from my bearing supplier (with a spare), and have done about 6Kmiles since. In all fairness, even though I adjusted it as advised, (able to turn it 90º..?- that's open to interpretation *conf*), so I gave the replacement a bit more slack. They can only have so much before the slack will *potentially* rub on the inner case screw boss, so split the difference (or something along those lines). It's all documented on another thread somewhere. (somehow I think the forum has too many  threads running on similar issues, would be good to somehow keep them contained- maybe by better use of 'search and destroy' but that's food for a different topic)...

   I also think I didn't bother initially with lube on the belt because I wasn't sure how the whole show was going to run after the rebuild (me of little faith), but *touchwood* has progressed much better than anticipated *smile*

Out of interest, can a spare belt be purchased from the likes of Gates for the Dynamoregulator kit? Or is it a special one only available from Dynamoregulator?
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Offline Sluggo

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Re: dynamo belt drive - to grease or not to grease
« Reply #24 on: 31.10. 2017 19:29 »
I appreciate the feedback on this topic, as the BSA Preunit twins is my knowledge deficit right now hence joining this list.  I also appreciate the feedback on the 2 units available and will look into that other unit (The non SRM one).  I really like to hear the uprated speed with the pulley sizes.

I had been aware there was kits for these but no first hand or even second hand knowledge on these kits.  We have a very active classic scene in my area but preunit BSA twins are thin on the ground around here.  Other than mine There is less than 10 i know of in a 400 mile radius and none that I am aware of are ridden much.

I have 2 A10s that are in my keeper pile if I sell the 52 plunger.   I might try an alternative idea on the 51 rigid, but the 63 A10 Ill purchase some sort of kit for it,  I have some 12v NOS armatures and will make the setups work the best they can be.

As to this grease set up, I was hoping to hear more about this, I will delve into the topic soon and do some research about WHY SRM feels the need to lube these things  but I held back before condemning the practice.

So let me just say this,.  I can run down my resume (Blah blah blah) but suffice to say I consulted with a lot of really smart engineers on power transmission design when working both as a millwright in manufacturing as well as process engineering on some machinery I built, serviced and developed.  (Integrated CAD/CAM steel roll forming manufacturing)  & I own a number of 2 wheel and 4 wheel vehicles that use these types of belts (Timing belts, accy drive, Primary and final drive) I also double checked some of my manuals and tech literature.

Nowhere can I find any reference to lubricating belts, oils, greases or Mongolian Yak wax.  In fact, all my materials suggest avoiding any lubricating products as it damages the belts.   In some cases there are problems with tooth wear and a few cases I know of where Dry film lubricants were used to extend pulley and tooth wear but in most cases it was suggested that the steel or alloy parts were either wrong materials or heat treat or metal conditioning.   There are a few products out there for "Belt dressing" and specialty cleaning products when a belt is noisy or fouled with contaminants.  But nowhere to my knowledge is anyone advocating using grease.  I could be wrong, (it happened once, my wife likes to point it out) but I plan to look into it.

But in this application I am hard pressed to understand the logic of smearing grease all over a belt, think about it. Its going to fling off within seconds of start up, Its inaccessible and do you remove the cover and re-apply when the moon is full?  The idea of the belt is to avoid the issues with a chain and lubrication, as well as the sticky mess inside.  Ill have to investigate further but do you seal off that area from oil I assume?   As i mentioned earlier there are belt drive primaries that will run in oil but the oil is not for the belt, Its to lube the clutch center bearings which is why all the belt drive primaries I have used were all sealed type bearings and no oil used in the primary.  (preunit Triumphs and all Nortons are a pain to seal from leaky primaries, & improves clutch perf so a dry belt drive is a nice accy upgrade)

Ill send an enquiry to SRM on this, and read up on the belt they use but I am confused as to why there is grease in this equation.
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Offline Sluggo

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Re: dynamo belt drive - to grease or not to grease
« Reply #25 on: 31.10. 2017 19:53 »
"Out of interest, can a spare belt be purchased from the likes of Gates for the Dynamoregulator kit? Or is it a special one only available from Dynamoregulator?"

___________________________________________________

That is a common question that comes up a lot.  Most places making these kits will tell you their belt is proprietary. (MAP cycles says this frequently...)

See: http://www.mapcycle.com/categories/transmission-primary/belt-drive/belt-drive-kits/map2001-triumph-650-750-twins-1969-deluxe-belt-drive-kit.html
( i have used a number of these kits and am a huge fan of them, very nice quality, well worth the money)

See: http://www.mapcycle.com/tech-source/   
I look fwd to when they update this, over the years they printed some really amazing tech materials that were availible to dealers and the public, I hope they reprint some of them as well as update.

But I posted a number of links to Gates tech files and others and if you research this, there is several types of teeth patterns and you have to match that, in addition the construction of the belt varies.  Many industrial types while robust are NOT suited to a auto-cycle application.  So, I doubt you will find a kit manufacturer will readily offer you up a cross reference list of suitable replacements from other vendors,
But nobody making these kits are making their own belts.  As I said before, a designer uses off the shelf materials and then makes whatever adapters to make it work.  In limited cases some pulleys or other speciality stuff might be farmed out to machine shop to be specially made (My wife's employer makes all kinds of components for other companies) 

But to answer your question,,, YES,, YOU CAN FIND OTHER BELTS,,  its up to you to research it and find the right one.  Emphasis on RIGHT ONE.

The tech on this stuff is readily available on the internet and the quality gets better and better every day. 
Some people are slow to adapt to this, but I personally LOVE the belt drives on some of my other vehicles.
15-20 years ago people would have scoffed at the idea of a Belt final drive on a high performance sport bike
but the belt drives on my Buells are rated at 60,000 miles and some literature suggests lifetime service but in reality most people change them around 20,000 to 30,000 miles which is amazing when you think about it.  Some luddites swear that a chain is better and actually swap back to chains on HD & Buells and I had this argument 2 months ago where I was told that no way could a belt final drive cope.  I pointed to my XB12SCG which if you believe the Dyno print out is over 130 hp and nearly as much torque. (I believe the dyno was optimistic)  But thats pretty amazing if you think about it.  Fully active suspension, over 100hp and no issues with the belt.

So, yes Virginia, there IS a Santa Claus!  (Sorry, off topic here) but point is, you can find a product that will work and pretty cool that such things are now available.
Remember that any advice received on a free internet forum is generally worth about 1/2 of what you paid for it.
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Offline duTch

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Re: dynamo belt drive - to grease or not to grease
« Reply #26 on: 31.10. 2017 20:36 »
 
Quote
Out of interest, can a spare belt be purchased from the likes of Gates for the Dynamoregulator kit? Or is it a special one only available from Dynamoregulator

 
Quote
....I replaced it with I think a comparative Gates product that I bought from my bearing supplier (with a spare), and have done about 6Kmiles since...........
   
 I just dug out my old and new ones, the new one is not a Gates, but is a 'Optibelt' brand made in Ireland, and is the one done ~6K mies so far  *wink2*  (The Gates one was  at a very unhelpful place)

 Size is AT5-420 (that's 'A' section 5mm Tooth pitch / 420 mm length)   counted @ 84 tooth.
 I had to order it from the Bearing shop, and they have it cut to size (it comes like a big long sock, and is cut to width)

     * The Synchroflex belt from SRM actually did about 6K miles,  better than the 4K that I thought, and the optically had almost done 6K *
Started building in about 1977/8 a on average '52 A10 -built from bits 'n pieces never resto intended -maybe 'personalised'
Have a '74 850T Moto Guzzi since '92-best thing I ever bought doesn't need a kickstart 'cos it bump starts sooooooooo(mostly) easy
Australia

Online groily

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Re: dynamo belt drive - to grease or not to grease
« Reply #27 on: 01.11. 2017 08:03 »
Spare Dyn Reg belts are available from the makers of the conversion, and maybe if one figured out the exact spec, from the actual manufacturer.  (Edit- But that's been said already, sorry!)
Think they're very aware of the need for top quality here.
Spec is described in broad terms in the blurb on their site: http://dynamoregulators.com/drive-belt-kit.php
Not sure about this grease malarkey, I've never applied any.
Bill

Offline bikerbob

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Re: dynamo belt drive - to grease or not to grease
« Reply #28 on: 01.11. 2017 08:24 »
I have the Dynareg belt fitted and am very pleased with the extra charge that it creates I can now run at 30mph and still be charging with the headlight on. You can buy a sparee belt from Dyno reg for £20 plus postage.

Offline Dynamo Regulators Mike

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Re: dynamo belt drive - to grease or not to grease
« Reply #29 on: 01.11. 2017 10:05 »
Possibly I should have cut in earlier on this thread, but most issues on the DRL dynamo belt drive seem to have been answered. We have been selling these kits for a good few years now. The first design goal was for maximum possible up-tick of the dynamo speed. Achieved +20% speed with max/min size pulleys of 47/16 teeth. At the same time belt width was also increased to maximum of 15 mm for superior strength, and even then the enhanced drive kit comes in at well less than the competition.  *smile*

There have been a few local issues over the time in production, a couple of belts trashed, and a flange coming free from a large pulley. Key is to set dynamo position so belt is fairly loose to start with. As stated earlier in this thread engine heat tightens up belt remarkably. The belt does not change much, but the drive centres and pulleys being ally expand more. One problem is how to describe getting correct tension. Decided on 'easily twisting 45 degrees each way in middle of run'. But we do not define 'easily'. Ideal would be to use a tensionometer of some kind, giving a displacement distance for given given side force. But gets a little silly at that point I think. *conf*

I do not recommend using grease to 'lubricate' or aid cooling. A spray of dry lubricant with PTFE will not do any harm. I don't really see how grease would aid cooling in any case. The belts are German made Conti Gen III, AT5 420 mm long, good for 120 C. Probably available from any local Conti stockist, or other manufacturer's exact equivalent. As they are cut from a wide section of belt probably bought to order, a minimum order quantity would obtain, and not cheap! They are made of steel cords in a high grade polyurethane. To be borne in mind before using any lubricant spray.  *ex*

In practice I see no reason to believe the belts will not last 10's of thousand of miles, backed up by customer feedback.
Mike Hutchings
A10, B50, T800; 1,2,3 (& DVR2)
Director, DRL www.dynamoregulators.com