Author Topic: What fuel best for Super Rocket?  (Read 3381 times)

Offline rowan.bradley

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What fuel best for Super Rocket?
« on: 31.10. 2017 23:08 »
What fuel should I use in my Super Rocket once the rebuild is done? That's legal, and obtainable in UK (which presumably the leaded petrol that it was designed for is not...). While I'm rebuilding it, are there any modifications or adaptions that I should consider to enable it to run on ordinary 95 octane unleaded, or on 99 octane super (which seems to be the highest octane readily available in UK)?

Does adding methanol do any good? If so, where would I get it from, and what proportion mix it in? And what changes to the carb, timing or elsewhere would then have to be done?

Has anyone any experience in the unleaded modification sold by SRM, which (as I understand it) consists of fitting new high temperature exhaust valve seats and exhaust valves? Does it work well? Do the valves then last well? Does unleaded petrol cause any other problems with the bike?

Thanks - Rowan


Current bike: 1958 A10 Super Rocket (in bits), purchased in 1967.
Previous bikes: M21

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Re: What fuel best for Super Rocket?
« Reply #1 on: 01.11. 2017 06:27 »
Your Super Rocket has hard valve seat inserts already so no need for worry about them. Don't go adding methanol. You will screw up the mixture amongst other things. Just use the premium brand petrol (BP ultimate etc) and not the cheap 95 octane supermarket stuff. And don't go sticking 10:1 compression pistons in it. For practical use (I can hear the howls of protest now) 7.5:1 or 8:1 is as high as you should go.   
 
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Offline mikeb

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Re: What fuel best for Super Rocket?
« Reply #2 on: 01.11. 2017 07:16 »
+1 to what black sheep said. my 61 super rocket runs fine on unleaded. i go for 98octane as its the highest we have in NZ. original fuels were much lower octane but apparently less oily and burnt differently - search some threads here on 'modern fuels' to taste the vitriol this topic can induce. avoid ethanol fuels at all costs. maybe better for the planet but not suitable for an old amal carb

when the SR had 9:1 pistons it would pink like crazy. now on 8:1 is rarely does - much more rideable. and just retard the spark a few degrees with the manual control if it does pink up a hill or whatever. i've got 'old fashioned' valve seats and despite what i read about they don't appear to burn out with unleaded. i'm an 'enthusiastic'  weekend rider not a race track guy.

don't over think it - ride and enjoy
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Online JulianS

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Re: What fuel best for Super Rocket?
« Reply #3 on: 01.11. 2017 08:26 »
Mine has 8.75 pistons and runs just fine on standard unleaded no additives.

Offline duTch

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Re: What fuel best for Super Rocket?
« Reply #4 on: 01.11. 2017 08:52 »
 
 heya Ro-bra...when I was cleaning up my head, and asked my mate Kel if I needed to do anything with the valve seats, he said naah, they good already, and that was 10K miles ago and have had no dramas (so far)..I run beepeeultimate when I can, but on occasion when I'm caught short it doeasn't seem to make any diff anyway, so I say just experiment some.... *dunno2*
Started building in about 1977/8 a on average '52 A10 -built from bits 'n pieces never resto intended -maybe 'personalised'
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Re: What fuel best for Super Rocket?
« Reply #5 on: 01.11. 2017 09:17 »
Methanol will not mix with petrol.
Cheers
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Offline rowan.bradley

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Re: What fuel best for Super Rocket?
« Reply #6 on: 01.11. 2017 11:21 »
    So, to summarise, we seem to think:
    • The SRM unleaded modification is irrelevant and not required for a Super Rocket
    • It'll run fine on unleaded without problems.
    • Use the highest octane you can get (e.g. Shell V-Power, 99 RON)
    • If it pinks, retard the ignition
    • Don't consider methanol or any alternative fuel.
    • Don't increase the compression ratio any further. I understood that the bike as designed had a CR of 8.5:1. Is that not correct? I have no idea what the CR of my current setup is, if it is not 8.5. It does not have the original pistons, since I had it rebored about 50 years ago (since when it hasn't gone anywhere).

    Does that about cover it?

    Thanks for your help - Rowan


Current bike: 1958 A10 Super Rocket (in bits), purchased in 1967.
Previous bikes: M21

Offline rowan.bradley

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Re: What fuel best for Super Rocket?
« Reply #7 on: 01.11. 2017 11:37 »
Methanol will not mix with petrol.
Cheers
Research elsewhere suggests that methanol WILL mix with petrol, but the mix tends to separate out if there is water present (which I suppose there will be if you are not very careful, or if it sits there for a while). However it seems clear that there is no reason to try to use it on the SR, so I will not consider it further.

Rowan


Current bike: 1958 A10 Super Rocket (in bits), purchased in 1967.
Previous bikes: M21

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Re: What fuel best for Super Rocket?
« Reply #8 on: 01.11. 2017 12:40 »
G'day RB.
Sorry I was thinking alcohol, as in the moonshine the brotherinlaw makes (it won't blend like water and oil). *countdown*. A lot of people mistake methanol for ethanol but both are very hygroscopic. Don't ride in the rain.
Anyway, stick with pump fuel.
Cheers
'51 A7 plunger, '57 A7SS racer now a A10CR, '78 XT500, '83 CB1100F, 88 HD FXST, 2000 CBR929RR ex Honda Australia Superbike .
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Offline Topdad

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Re: What fuel best for Super Rocket?
« Reply #9 on: 01.11. 2017 13:15 »
Rowan, when ¬I rebuilt my A10 some 10 plus yrs ago (not having access to this wonderful forum )  I got most of my engineering work done by SRM .Including valves seats ,as I was getting larger valves fitted it seemed to make sense although within a year or so I'd heard that unleaded was ok either way mine as been fine no damage to seats or valves in that time ! *good3*
I fitted 8.25 to 1 pistons and run premium (tesco ) without any problems ,hope that is of help ,Bob/
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Offline bsa-bill

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Re: What fuel best for Super Rocket?
« Reply #10 on: 01.11. 2017 18:42 »
Quote
Don't increase the compression ratio any further. I understood that the bike as designed had a CR of 8.5:1.

totally agree, I went the high cam / humpy piston way when I built the Rocket Gold Flash and regret it now, firstly I don't ride the bike in a way that warrants it and secondly the damn thing refused to start in any reliable way with that set up until I installed electronic ignition (which is brilliant tho).
So once I get to it, it will be restored to more original spec
All the best - Bill
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1959 Rocket Gold Flash - blinged and tarted up  would have seizure if taken to  Tesco

Offline mikeb

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Re: What fuel best for Super Rocket?
« Reply #11 on: 01.11. 2017 19:51 »
Rowan if you have the head off then post a pic of the Piston crowns and the brainiacs here can give you a close estimate of the CR
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Offline Rgs-Bill

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Re: What fuel best for Super Rocket?
« Reply #12 on: 01.11. 2017 20:20 »
    My  2 cents worth from the U S of A type fuels.  I have a 1962  Big Valve Alloy head Rocket Gold Star, single Monobloc carby.  It has a modified low back pressure exhaust system ( 12" inch shorty mufflers fiber glass gutted out ) . (Very Loud )  The pistons are .040 thousands over, and are semi crowned, 9 or 9 1/2 to one   CR .  The really crummy fuel we have here in U S is max of 92 octane, I run that with 3/4 of an ounce of Marvel Mystery Oil per every 2.5 gallons of gas.  (not only does it give some upper cylinder, and ring lubing, but keeps fuel from souring ) .  Carb is 1 3/16th`s venturi, 360 main jet, 3 1/2 slide, .025 pilot, .106 needle jet, needle stamped D, in second from top notch.  I have been running it like this for 40 plus years, and have never had valve recession down into the head, because of unleaded fuel.  Most I have talked to, said with valve seats that old, and all of the motor  heat and cooling cycles, the motor its own self has retro actively hardened the valve seats, to act as though it had unleaded hardened seats in it.
 
 Just 2 Cents worth RGS BILL

   PS: Please correct me if any one has evidence to the contrary about self hardening valve seats. And I will give change on my 2 cents worth >>>> *smile* *smile* *smile* *smile* HEH HEH HEH HEH
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Offline Sluggo

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Re: What fuel best for Super Rocket?
« Reply #13 on: 01.11. 2017 20:24 »
it might be helpful to actually measure your combustion chambers and and the pistons to see what you actually have for compression ratio rather than rely on what everyone thinks they have.   

There is a variety of ways to do this and the info is readily available on how.
Pro engine builders use a kit you can purchase but for the home mechanic you can make up your own
(dont raid the missus cooking equipment).

Published CR can vary widely with real world data not to mention if the head or cyl might have been skimmed in the past. Adjustments with limited piston choices can be addressed in other ways but each is a complicated topic I wont get into here.

Fuel quality of course has significantly changed from 50 years ago as well as what makes up what fuel is today which is a very complicated witches brew of chemicals.  Complicating that regionally petrol blends differ as well as seasonally.

It seems inevitable someone mentions aviation fuel (AVGAS) and lets skip that discussion.  Its not compatible with your bike, It WONT make it faster, and in most places its illegal to use on a road going vehicle.  I have used it blended with some other fuels and chemicals when I was racing as an alternative to off the shelf race fuel but thats a complicated topic and suffice to say ITS NOT A GOOD idea in a machine like yours.  Whats good for a recip acft at 10,000 feet in known icing conditions is not formulated for your old tractor engine at sea level or not far from it. 
(I am a FAA licensed A&P tech and I can legally purchase AVGAS)

When I was in Europe and the middle east I had considerable problems with fuel quality in my hot rod car.  Several friends and I experimented with a alcohol injection system into the carbs and it worked, but was fiddly and not for the masses.  The reason we did this was we had non stock engines and that gets into big ports, big valves, very lumpy cams with lots of overlap.   A stock car wont have noticeable issues on that same fuel.  A super rocket DOES have a very lump cam, and can suffer the same issues but the injection system to work with your old bike is not feasible... I only mention it because the tech does exist and DOES work as opposed to adding alcohol INTO your fuel tank. 

I still have some degree of the same issues today with modern fuel.  A high performance car engine with certain cam profiles does not tolerate poor fuel, and especially anything oxygenated with alcohol.

Here in the US we have some very misguided policy decisions about environmental issues and while well intentioned and some ways very much needed, Science and politics clash so we are stuck with one of the biggest scams and con jobs in history.  I wont rant excessively on this, but its about farm subsidies, Oil companies and crooked and stupid politicians.  Billions and billions of dollars every year.

But its best to try and avoid any fuels with alcohol present. In my area its typically 10 to 15% alcohol added to our fuel and they want to go to higher levels. (20% I think) and it plays havoc with fuel systems,  Its hydroscopic (LOTS of water, both in storage tanks, as well as collects in your tank) It corrodes all aspects of the fuel systems as well as soft parts such as lines, floats (Rubber,nitrile, plastics) and it clogs small orifices.  The smaller the jets and orifices the more problems.

I know for a fact that our state govt has instructed employees to not use these fuels in any state owned equipment and especially mowers, chain saws, trimmers. But this is Ironic because it mandates consumers use these fuels instead. 

There are several websites you can access for locations of fuel centers that have alcohol free fuel and I keep a list of them for western US.  My wifes car gets 15% better fuel economy with alcohol free fuels and its worth the extra cost.  The irony is diluting our fuel with alcohol its a huge profit for merchants and oil companies as alcohol costs a fraction of what gasoline costs. 

See: http://www.buyrealgas.com/
See: https://www.pure-gas.org/extensions/map.html

Its been a long time since I was last in Europe but I understand there is similar issues with fuel quality there.  If you cannot find alcohol free fuel, buy the highest quality you can and separate the alcohol yourself. Several websites show you how.  Consider a fuel treatment like STABIL for fuel that sits for some time.  (It DOES go bad!)

You can test fuel yourself,, its a simple test using a graduated cylinder and many websites that detail how.  At one point I carried a test kit in my car and tested frequently as fuel quality varied considerably and the govt test programs went away so vendors were free to sell some real garbage to consumers. 
(** Some places test the pumps for accuracy as well as fuel quality,, Some dont.  You know you are getting ripped off when you go to fill up a nearly empty 12 gallon tank and the stations pump says they sold you 15 gallons!   *help*)

My advice is, besides being aware and educated about modern fuel and sources, you cant always get the best quality so you should focus in on the very best ignition system you can have (optimize) as well as state of tune and condition of carb, plugs, wires, timing and how you ride.

While many classic bike owners want to stick with originality, And seems most on this list fall into that category, you should consider and value do you want a show bike or display only machine or do you want to ride the bike and enjoy the character of the machine?  In which case we start on the slippery slope of what mods are acceptable?   Electronic ignitions, Different carbs, or????   

Best of luck in your endeavors.. *smiley4*
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Offline t20racerman

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Re: What fuel best for Super Rocket?
« Reply #14 on: 02.11. 2017 00:28 »
My tuned A10 has 9:1 pistons, a Spitfire cam and a gas flowed head with new valve seats fitted (old ones were quite recessed)
It pinks really badly on std 95 unleaded fuel and borders on the unusable. I run it on 98 Octane Shell V-power and it's transformed - running really well with minimal pinking. On V-power, if it does start pinking, a large handful of throttle stops it. I tried Tesco's Momentum 97 Octane fuel and it's OK, but significantly worse than Shell V-power. If there is no Shell garage nearby, it's a decent backup.
I have run it on AVgas (fully leaded aviation fuel) , and the pinking completely disappears.
Use the highest octane fuel that you can on any A10 with a high compression ratio and you'll see a massive difference. On 7:1 pistons on a basic Flash engine, std 95 octane fuel is fine.
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