Author Topic: Oil system Q1: Adding an oil filter  (Read 2843 times)

Online chaterlea25

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Re: Oil system Q1: Adding an oil filter
« Reply #30 on: 07.11. 2017 23:41 »
Hi All,
The £23.95 filter unit is the same as the rip off £95 unit, its just that some PO added two 3/8th compression fittings
to the pipe stubs  *eek*
MB transits is now using another trading name  *razz* *razz* *razz* *razz* *razz* *razz*

A 16/20mm electrical gland adaptor will fit the "Norton " type filter unit so quite a range of common 20mm thread filters
can be used
The same questions come up every so often  :! a forum search will find the previous discussions and photos

John
1961 Super Rocket
1963 RGS (ongoing)

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Re: Oil system Q1: Adding an oil filter
« Reply #31 on: 08.11. 2017 09:11 »
Any views on which of these is best?
Assuming that the cartridges are all pretty similar, they all look much the same (except for the price) so unless anyone has a good reason not to, I suppose I will use the £23.95 one.

Have you used any of these? How did the project go? Did the filter work well? Were there any problems or difficulties?

Many thanks for your advice.

Rowan

There is also an Emgo one that you regularly see on Evil Pay sold as a a Triumph external oil filter.
It is a casting but coming from the good old USA it if threaded NPT and not metric so takes a different filter ( actually takes about 50 different filters ).
The housing itself is fairly inconsequential it is just a cup with a tube in the middle that is threaded.
Over the years I have fitted dozens of different ones.
Briggs makes an oil filter which bolted onto the outside of the engine & I have fitted quite a few of these ( 5/8 NPT ).
Mitsubishi  also use bolt on oil filters and again I have fitted more than one of them
Bike Beesa
Trevor

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Re: Oil system Q1: Adding an oil filter
« Reply #32 on: 08.11. 2017 09:29 »
There is also an Emgo one that you regularly see on Evil Pay sold as a a Triumph external oil filter.
I've been using Emgo filters so I may have that version.

Offline rowan.bradley

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Re: Oil system Q1: Adding an oil filter
« Reply #33 on: 08.11. 2017 11:41 »
The Emgo one says that it is the Norton Commando type, then presumably it will fit the same type of holder and is presumably more or less interchangeable with the Champion filter. Is this correct?

Thanks - Rowan


Current bike: 1958 A10 Super Rocket (in bits), purchased in 1967.
Previous bikes: M21

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Re: Oil system Q1: Adding an oil filter
« Reply #34 on: 08.11. 2017 12:09 »
HF153 or K&N153 fits the notrun unit. A lot of Ducati's use it too.
Cheers
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Re: Oil system Q1: Adding an oil filter
« Reply #35 on: 08.11. 2017 15:47 »
Well spotted John,
" rules are made for the guidance of wise men and the blind obediance of fools"
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Re: Oil system Q1: Adding an oil filter
« Reply #36 on: 08.11. 2017 16:10 »
 
 Groan..I know we had a yarn about this not long ago, but can't find it just now....and it does my head in.....The Noturn filter head I have is an Emgo like GB's, and also takes as Musky says, as do the Filtered model MotoGutzzi  (I was looking last night for filters for Gutzzi), the thread is M16 x1.5 ('ISO Fine'), which is close to a 5/8" x 16 TPI, but can't find existence of that in any form, sorry Trev, I can't find 5/8 NPT (or NPS) in any thread charts after a quick search... *dunno*, so I can only conclude it's metric or a brumby thread (unlikely)*conf2*

 This is one filter cross reference and comments I came across last night (among others);
 http://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/FilterXRef.html

 *EDIT* 1/2 hour later... The point of my above was partly that I chased up an adapter as suggested by C'Lea John those months ago, but finding a squat filter to suit the 20mm thread is also challenging. There may be more available in UK/EU/US, but Oz options are limited  *problem*...
   Reckon if I knew for sure that Trevs will fit would be the best shot, but tried several mower places to no avail


Started building in about 1977/8 a on average '52 A10 -built from bits 'n pieces never resto intended -maybe 'personalised'
Have a '74 850T Moto Guzzi since '92-best thing I ever bought doesn't need a kickstart 'cos it bump starts sooooooooo(mostly) easy
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Offline Sluggo

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Re: Oil system Q1: Adding an oil filter
« Reply #37 on: 08.11. 2017 18:42 »
The 2 issues about the filters (Well covered in previous posts here and other forums) is the Norton style filter is a good universal Brit bike filter setup.  However there IS a thread issue on the adapter that takes the filter.
Seems to be 2 types similar but not the same.   The INOA printed interchange lists for filters that fit and were used on many different cars if you have the Blighty type filter threads..  A bodger could try and jam on a filter with wrong threads and end up with metal shavings or worse,, stripped threads.

** PROPER use of the Norton filters was originally with a ring clap or worm drive hose clamp onto the filter & securing to something else to insure it never loosens and falls off, unlikely with the Rubber Oring/gasket but the results if it DID happen would be unpleasant.**

The filter base is a common size and class of filter so depending on your access to replacements, a different threaded adapter would open up your options.   However IF you do that,,

then that brings up issue #2, I covered this in another thread extensively, But filters are of 2 types.  Full pass thru and bypass.  You want on your BSA-Notrun-or other BI a PASS THRU filter.  to test this place your lips against the opening and give a puff of air. (Best not to have a crowd around when you do this)  If air passes freely both directions then A+,, thats what you want.   Never run the bypass filter on your BI.

reason why is SOME auto applications IF the filter clogs, there is a bypass IN the filter adapter base and when excessive pressure happens it opens a bypass and continues to circulate oil thats unflitered.  Good safety measure for morons and blond women.  (What??? I have to change the oil???)

However SOME filters to avoid bleed off of oil (Sumping) Have a internal check valve flapper inside the filter.  Oil ONLY circulates thru the filter when pressure is high enough past a threshold.  Great design feature for some auto applications.  (Avoids dry-no lube startups)  but it is
BAD BAD BAD For BRITISH BIKE APPLICATIONS

Reason why is, if you read up on the feeble and willy nilly oil pressures on these old BSA Farm tractors oil pressure can be quite low at times.  Last thing you want is all your oil backed up in your sump (And not in the oil tank) because pressure did not climb high enough to allow circulation.  Last thing you need is a bolt on pressure restrictor/flow check valve.  A filter is a good addition to an old British bike, just DO NOT fit one that decides when oil shall pass

One other note, there is an abundance of filter bases very similar to the Norton ones that were fitted to some Harley applications. They do crop up for sale often.  I picked some up thinking i might save some money over the Norton vendor ones.  I did find that MOST filters that fit that Harley type base are of the internal check valve/flapper and are NOT FREE FLOW based on extensive searrching and sampling at several filter vendors.

DynoDave posted on his website some info approaching this from another direction, but lists brands and part numbers,. He actually measured the bypass pressure I referenced.  He does not seem concerned about oil at low pressures backing up,, ( I AM very concerned about that)  But he is a smart guy and I respect his knowledge,
See: http://atlanticgreen.com/oilfilter.htm

More whinging and hand wringing on the NOC site as well as info on the threaded adapters and cross reference to other filters.
See: http://www.nortonownersclub.org/support/technical-support-commando/oil-filters
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Re: Oil system Q1: Adding an oil filter
« Reply #38 on: 08.11. 2017 19:26 »
If the filter was bypass type it would not bother me at all as it's generally accepted the oil pump can provide as much pressure in the return side (well over 50 psi) as it can on the supply side and hence overcome a few psi of resistance in the filter, and changing it before it becomes clogged is the way to avoid it bypassing. If it bypasses then you are no worse off than if no filter was fitted. If it was clogged to the point of being blocked I suspect the BSA oil pump could blow it apart!

I reckon the only reason the pressure goes low on the supply side (when the oil is hot) is that the resistance to oil flow is low in the BSA engine, the clearances in the timing side bush and big ends are large enough that the pump cannot generate a high pressure, as the oil pumps fairly easily through the bearings, preventing the build up of pressure.

If an upgraded pump is fitted that pumps more volume, it will b able to generate a bit more pressure in the supply side than a standard pump. Whether or not this reduces engine wear, does anyone knows for sure? *dunno*  but it's generally accepted a higher oil pressure is a good thing, but a high supply pressure is not needed to keep the necessary thin film of oil intact, in a plain bearing. The pressures reached right inside a plain bearing (if one could measure them) far exceed the pump pressure.

 *fight*
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1956 A10 Golden Flash EA7-168x, CA10 913x, left BSA together for Liverpool, 5th Dec 1955.

1949 B31 rigid “400cc hot rod” (favourite bike)

1949 C11 rigid, but why!!! (cos it was cheap)

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1952 Armstrong Siddeley Whitley for rainy days (with wife).

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Re: Oil system Q1: Adding an oil filter
« Reply #39 on: 08.11. 2017 19:32 »
Quote from: Sluggo
However SOME filters to avoid bleed off of oil (Sumping) Have a internal check valve flapper inside the filter.  Oil ONLY circulates thru the filter when pressure is high enough past a threshold.  Great design feature for some auto applications.  (Avoids dry-no lube startups)  but it is
BAD BAD BAD For BRITISH BIKE APPLICATIONS

Are you confusing a non-return rubber flap with a  blocked filter bypass valve?

Offline Sluggo

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Re: Oil system Q1: Adding an oil filter
« Reply #40 on: 08.11. 2017 20:39 »
Quote from: Sluggo
However SOME filters to avoid bleed off of oil (Sumping) Have a internal check valve flapper inside the filter.  Oil ONLY circulates thru the filter when pressure is high enough past a threshold.  Great design feature for some auto applications.  (Avoids dry-no lube startups)  but it is
BAD BAD BAD For BRITISH BIKE APPLICATIONS

Are you confusing a non-return rubber flap with a  blocked filter bypass valve?

No, Dont think so,,    BSAs dont have a Bypass valve other than the pressure relief valve and thats not what we are talking about, nor is that related to filter or bypass the filter.   
On some auto applications there is a filterbypass valve and if too much restriction in the filter passage indicating a clogged filter, then IN THOSE AUTO APPLICATIONS a preset valve opens and allows full oil flow but is unfiltered.  As I said, a sensible and good engineering idea, especially with neglectful owners.

A non return rubber flap might or might not be the issue here. I am not sure.  But what I DO know when running oil pump test rigs at my former employer is that we saw significant oil pressure needed on some filters before they would pass oil thru them.  Non return?  I think in most cases that is what they were.  It was my understanding they are used on some model AUTO APPLICATIONS to keep oil from draining thru much like a BSA or Norton will wetsump.  (A design feature of the gear type pumps, most BSAs have a check ball, but thats another topic for debate)

But point is, MOST pumps as noted have 2 different gears in them or in the case of a Triumph the plunger is larger for the return side so it effeciently scavenges oil and returns to the tank. So while there is more VOLUME on the return side for scavenging by design, pressure fluctuates wildly.

The point here is, in testing oil systems, we saw significant backups of oil with filters with those flappers inside.  We did NOT have those problems with the full flow type filters.  NONE actually, thats my point here.
With those internal check valves or non return flappers the pressure needed to overcome those varied but the net result was each time we had significant oil sumping issues with the oil backing up and a few very oil messes. So the point again, dont use a filter with any internal valves, flappers or restrictions.  If it passes the puff of air test its what you want.

DYNODAVE posted testing on the pressures for some filters and I know he does a LOT of oil pump testing himself, and offers a pump testing service.

But to belabor this issue/point,    VOLUME (IE: Gallons per minute or GPM) is entirely different that PRESSURE. (IE: PSI).  Pressure merely indicates the resistance to flow and is friction derived.  High pressure does not tell you if you have adequate oiling, it just indicates the resistance to flow thats occurring which might be a dribble or a river and no way to tell.   (Dribbles never end well or last long).

On a return side of a pump 2 things become quite clear when you do testing, Because most engine oil pumps go larger capacity on the return side for good scavenging, much of the return is aeretated.  If you had a system with a larger volume of oil being moved you wouldnt see as much,. but on BSA-Nortons-Triumphs what I saw was at times a lot of air spittling out with drops of oil. Punctuated by steady streams.  You really cant quantify that in reliable pressure readings.  It would also depend on WHERE you took pressure readings from right?  The oil line off the return coming out of the engine? The rocker feed?  Before or after the PRV? At the mains? off the pump before the mains or PRV?

Then there is the oil used. again so many variables.  Straight weights called for in original factory specs are hard to source these days but I have seen spikes off the pump feeds on many British twins of 150 psi with a cold engine/oil with a 40wt straight grade.  Multi grade 20/50 I have seen 125 psi on start up and have a damaged gauge to prove it.  On a hot engine on low tickover with a multigrade I have seen it flicker between 7 to 10 PSI using the very same gauge.  But we were able to verify the VOLUME passing thru was adequate and bounced right up to 20-30 PSI with revs, and 40-50 PSI at cruise RPM. 
So a pressure gauge is a good indicator that at least oil is pressurizing and flowing to some degree but its not reliable on adequate flow. 

To measure flow is not really feasible on a bike on the road. But you CAN easily test it in the workshop using containers and a stop watch.  There was factory service bulletins for Triumph, Norton and BSA for testing wet sump and PRV issues, and there was even test kits offered dealers.  For example unit Triumph 500s have a factory bulletin out for oil leakage and smoking in 1966-67 and outlines the test.  Some cases its a bad PRV but in some its the return side sump pickup or swarf in the pump.
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Online Colsbeeza

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Re: Oil system Q1: Adding an oil filter
« Reply #41 on: 09.11. 2017 03:09 »
A very interesting discussion :!. You chaps are very informative as usual. I followed up Sluggo's thoughts on whether it is easy to blow through the oil filter. I have 3 filters in stock - my very old but NOS TJ Tecalemit, a new Champion H101 supplied as a Norton item from a Sydney supplier, and an EMGO supplied by Paul Goff.
Summary as attached. The EMGO was very light to both blow and suck, the Tecalemit hard either way. (It pumps oil through OK), and the Champion in between. I might get rid of the Tecalemit.
I also measured the lengths (attached), as my TJ Tecalemit is snug to the point where I have to ease the bracket to get it to clear the bottom of the Toolbox. The TJ at 83mm is about the limit - bought from Shadowfax 25 years ago.
Finally on a slightly related thread, is a photo of my Oil Pressure gauge tapping. I Aluminium-welded a block adjacent to the centre of the Timing side bush to give some meat for the threaded oil hose bush, and drilled a tiny hole to pot the groove in the Timing Side Bush. It works a treat.
In my filters I can only see the rubber anti-syphon valve (rubber flap). I don't think there is any other valve in the filter. Do I need correcting.?
The other thing I have learned recently is that I didn't know about the anti-wet-sumping ball in the RHS crankcase whilst I had it apart *sad2*. The Internet hadn't been invented when I did the bottom end work. Well it leaks about 33ml / day. so I guess I will have to drain the sump (an SRM sump plate with magnetic drain plug) until I get a chance to pull it apart, which I hope is never.
Colin
Colsbeeza
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Offline Sluggo

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Re: Oil system Q1: Adding an oil filter
« Reply #43 on: 09.11. 2017 07:31 »
Colsbeeza, that was a helpful followup and you are right on track.  I also think that is correct on the puff-suck, as you really do NOT want any resistance in this.  Not all filters have that rubber flapper, but it does not do anything to help us on old Brit Iron.

I would recycle that other filter to the bin-round file or some industrial application like filtering old oil for a furnace or recycling. (Or perhaps your solvent tank,, I clean mine and strain it).

Your oil fitting is a great idea, and like I said many times over, I strongly prefer a visible oil pressure gauge as it makes you into a better owner-rider-caretaker.  If you know your system and whats going on internally its a great indicator of whats going on internally.  On my bikes it forces me to properly warm up the machine before blasting off down the road, and I can tell by the gauge when I am ready to roll.  Running a cold engine hard out the gate is a cruel thing to do.

While on some car applications your clear plastic line is acceptable I would suggest you replace it with either a good oil compatible rubber-nitrile line or a commercial grade braided stainless line. (There is some economy grade stuff out there that is easy to work with and affordable).  While hotly debated in the NOTRUN community, I have several friends and old shop customers who had bad experiences with the plastic oil lines on NOTRUN/Nortons as they came stock with a rocker feed line out of plastic.
In Rons case, his had a pinhole leak and lubed up his rear tire and luckily he was at low speed on a side street, bike went down hard.  He still shudders to this day speculating what would have happened if he had been on the interstate freeway. 

While yabbering about oil systems, Ill mention this as its a little related but off a bit on a tangent.  Most British twins LUBE the top end with a oil line or T fitting off the oil return line.  In most cases you will notice the main return line is  approx 1/4" ID, but the T fitting or take off for the rocker feed is a smaller diameter. Most bikes its crudely done and intended to prevent over oiling.  But as I said, return oil is heavily aereated and surges and pulses erratically.  Not to mention without  a return line filter,, its also grotty,soiled and dirty possibly containing swarf, or in some cases friction material from the clutches. (Some unit models share the primary oil with the engine).  NOT BRILLIANT ENGINEERING.

So, while its simple and functional if you do testing, oil reaching the top end can be intermittent, and belaboring the point, when cold it can take a long time to get up there.  The top end needs a Goldilocks amount of oil, not too much and not too little.  Those crudely brazed or soldered T fittings are not exactly calibrated or precise.

The BSA B50 community are really big on modifications to the top end rocker feed, and I wholly embrace their thinking on this topic.  Its well documented and they use a calibrated carb jet to meter the precise amount of oil needed and they take a pressure feed right off the main oil pressure passage where you would expect the oil to be clean and a good flow rate as well as consistent.

See:  https://www.b50.org/mods.htm

CCM BSA race bikes also do this mod, and well documented and illustrated here.
See: https://www.b50.org/ccmmods.htm

(Clever lads they are,, Rupert Ratio in his books also is chock full of helpful and informative tips such as this, and thought I would give him a nice endorsement here)

So,, While this goes against the grain of the rivet counters, and "Stock is best!!"  It is sound principles and logical modifications for a bike that can use all the help it can get in oiling.  I highly endorse it and strongly suggest these mods to any who will listen.

So, I had some interesting interactions about 10 years ago with several owners of the later Triumph TSS bikes and while not a common machine, these have the unique cyl heads.

" Designed to appeal to the US market, the TSS had an eight valve Weslake Engineering cylinder head developed by Triumph's Brian Jones from a 1978/9 design originally commissioned from Nourish Racing of Rutland[1] following 1960s designs for the 650cc twins by the Rickman Brothers."
Wiki here,,: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triumph_T140W_TSS

(I always wanted to play with some of these heads and never got the opportunity)  But a number of owners were complaining that they had abnormally short cyl head life and extreme wear problems.  The modification that did the trick was reported to be the oil feed for the top end modification I pointed out here..  The reports on this is that the wear problems went away.

While an old cast iron top end Beesa can chug away seemingly forever on the faintest whiffs of lube,, it does seem like any motor can benefit.
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Re: Oil system Q1: Adding an oil filter
« Reply #44 on: 09.11. 2017 10:45 »
"Colsbeeza, that was a helpful followup and you are right on track.  I also think that is correct on the puff-suck, as you really do NOT want any resistance in this.  Not all filters have that rubber flapper, but it does not do anything to help us on old Brit Iron"

"Remember that any advice received on a free internet forum is generally worth about 1/2 of what you paid for it.
We overcharge every 3rd customer to pass the savings onto you.
You can have High Quality, Low price, and fast turnaround. Pick any 2, Never all 3 at the same time."

Nuff said.......



New Zealand

1956 A10 Golden Flash EA7-168x, CA10 913x, left BSA together for Liverpool, 5th Dec 1955.

1949 B31 rigid “400cc hot rod” (favourite bike)

1949 C11 rigid, but why!!! (cos it was cheap)

1937 B21, missing parts so mission impossible?

1952 Armstrong Siddeley Whitley for rainy days (with wife).

GL1800 Goldwing not sure why, maybe cos it always starts