Author Topic: Sludge Trap Plugs  (Read 1049 times)

Offline rowan.bradley

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Re: Sludge Trap Plugs
« Reply #15 on: 13.11. 2017 11:42 »
Please can someone advise me what grade of Loctite to use to lock the plugs? I have looked at the Loctite website, but it does not make it clear. None of the grades mention oil resistant.

Many thanks - Rowan


Current bike: 1958 A10 Super Rocket (in bits), purchased in 1967.
Previous bikes: M21

Online RichardL

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Re: Sludge Trap Plugs
« Reply #16 on: 13.11. 2017 12:16 »
Rowan,

Your caliper is certainly within .010", so your crank is in the .030 range for large journal. Good news, because there is another grind available if or when you need it.

Richard L.
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Re: Sludge Trap Plugs
« Reply #17 on: 13.11. 2017 22:07 »
Please can someone advise me what grade of Loctite to use to lock the plugs? I have looked at the Loctite website, but it does not make it clear. None of the grades mention oil resistant.

Many thanks - Rowan

I used to teach a class on this,, The loctite website has a lot of very useful info, as well as commercial users could order a manual for the products.

 Here is a rough guide for useage.:

BLUE: (#242) Most useful, when properly used will work for most fasteners and has a specific torque rating so that once you exceed that, it breaks free. For parts you might want to service or remove from time to time.  I use this on most fasteners on old motorcycles.  (For example the screws or bolts adjacent to the intake ports on carb manifolds... Norton 2>1 intakes, Sportster and Buell, etc etc,, Would be a catastrophe to swallow a bolt or scew in the intake)  But very helpful for general fasteners that tend to loosen and fall off such as fenders, oil tank fixings, fuel tank bolts on & on.................

RED: (#271)  Hardcore useage only, Semi permanent. This stuff should be used carefully as once it cures its very hard to remove that fastener.  VERY useful for steel studs in alloy such as cyl base studs, or transmission cover studs.  Or extra security bolts that you are very worried about ever coming loose again.  To remove a properly cured red loctite fastener with just a wrench or socket likely you will round off or strip it before it loosens.  BUT there is a trick,., use a small propane or gas torch and heat the fastener past 200 deg F and that will release the chemical bond.

GREEN:  Green is technically a Bearing retainer compound, but I often will use it in addition for extra security as a thread locker on the exterior.   So,, Bearing retainer is what it is designed for. For example layshaft bearings on a Norton GB are known for loosening.  This is applied and works quite well.  On some bearings as well I apply a small amount around the perimeter of an installed bearing and allow it to cure.
On sludge trap plugs I use blue on the threads and a few small drops of green around the edge of the plug.  On connecting rod bolts, I torque and do all my procedures and while most rod bolts are SUPPOSED to be self locking I will apply a small film around the threads protruding from the rod nut as extra insurance.  So as a retaining compound it kind of glues things in place.

( OEM specified. A low viscosity threadlocking liquid that wicks along the threads of preassembled fasteners to secure them in place. Since it is applied after assembly, preventive maintenance procedures are simplified. Ideal for fasteners ranging from #2 to 1/2" (2.2 to 12mm) in size. Localized heating and hand tools are needed for disassembly. Conforms to ASTM D5363 AN0261 (Mil-S-46163A, Type III, Grade R).)

There is other Loctite products but thats the ones I keep in a small tray above my workbench and use religiously.

The key here is that the threads and application area MUST be clean and free of oil residue when applied. Any oil or petroleum residue (or Olive oil for that matter, or your grubby hands WASH THEM!) can contaminate the bonding that loctite does.   Its basically formulas of super glue and to cure it has to do its chemical reaction.  It CANNOT do that if contaminated.
In a pinch, I use aerosol cans of Brake cleaner or MEK, then use a air nozzle from my air compressor, CLEAN AND DRY!!!   But when building something, I have jars of solvents and do a final wash of all bolts, screws, nuts, in a first and second wash, then on a mesh screen and blow off with air,. Anything still not clean gets washed again. And lay out on paper towels for installation.

First wash off all hardware is in my solvent tank which has a little diesel in it, and rest is stoddard solvent, then washed with HOT HOT HOT water and air blow dry with compressed air. Then anything critical is washed again in lacquer thinner in the jars or MEK  (Lacquer thinner is cheaper and less toxic, but MEK or Brake cleaner will evaporate off with NO residue)

Once cured, any part with loctite to my knowledge can be exposed to oil and lube to your hearts content (Such as a oil passage) and no issues.

Personally I would install the sludge trap plug (Cleaned of course and the crank threads as well) with  a careful application of BLUE,, then once installed for extra security a few drops on the threads seam/joint with GREEN and allow to cure.  (Green frees off with the torch method as well)

Do not slop large amounts of the LOCTITE on anything, MORE is NOT better, very small amounts are adequate. 

See: http://www.loctiteproducts.com/p/t_lkr_blue/directions/Loctite-Threadlocker-Blue-242.htm
See: http://www.loctiteproducts.com/p/t_lkr_red/directions/Loctite-Threadlocker-Red-271.htm
See: http://www.loctiteproducts.com/tds/T_LKR_GREEN_tds.pdf

Loctite® Threadlocker Green 290™ is designed for the locking and sealing of threaded fasteners. Due
to it’s low viscosity and capillary action, the product wicks between engaged threads and eliminates the
need to disassemble prior to application. Loctite® Threadlocker Green 290™ cures when confined in
the absence of air between close fitting metal surfaces. It prevents loosening from shock and vibration
and leakage from shock and vibration and protects threads from rust and corrosion. The product can
also be used to fill porosity in welds, casting and powder metal parts. Localized heating and hand tools
are needed for disassembly.

For the record, I have never used LOCTITE Corp solvents or cleaners,,, I am sure they are good, but I do just fine using my methods.
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Offline rowan.bradley

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Re: Sludge Trap Plugs
« Reply #18 on: 14.11. 2017 11:43 »
I used to teach a class on this,, The loctite website has a lot of very useful info, as well as commercial users could order a manual for the products.
Here is a rough guide for useage.:
Thanks you very much for that comprehensive information.

Please can you explain why using both blue and green on the sludge trap plugs is a good idea? I would have thought that having used the blue, the clearance between the threads would be full of blue, so adding green would not go anywhere or do anything useful.

Thanks - Rowan


Current bike: 1958 A10 Super Rocket (in bits), purchased in 1967.
Previous bikes: M21

Offline rowan.bradley

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Re: Sludge Trap Plugs
« Reply #19 on: 14.11. 2017 11:45 »
When replacing the plugs, do they have to be done up until tight, or only done up until the surface of the plug is level with the surface of the crankshaft web?

Thanks - Rowan


Current bike: 1958 A10 Super Rocket (in bits), purchased in 1967.
Previous bikes: M21

Online JulianS

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Re: Sludge Trap Plugs
« Reply #20 on: 14.11. 2017 12:09 »
See my previous re timing side plug and the oilway from main bearing journal.

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Re: Sludge Trap Plugs
« Reply #21 on: 14.11. 2017 19:46 »
Thanks you very much for that comprehensive information.

Please can you explain why using both blue and green on the sludge trap plugs is a good idea? I would have thought that having used the blue, the clearance between the threads would be full of blue, so adding green would not go anywhere or do anything useful.

Thanks - Rowan
[/quote]
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okay will try,  First of all you are never using LARGE amounts of these compounds,, I can take a photo in the shop on a bolt with how much i use, It is very small amounts.  I once had a shop customer who grabbed a bottle of the Blue (Its expensive) and squirted half the bottle on a bolt, Wasteful! *pull hair out*

I cut the opening very carefully and use a small needle to prick a small hole in the top of the bottle and then when not used often I then use that needle to clear the opening before use.  (Its a reactive chemical glue basically- like super glue).  So on a sludge trap plug it would get 3 drops on the circumference of the threads
which when the plug is threaded in and if you quickly removed it you would see it left a VERY thin-small sheen on about 2/3rds of the threads.  You dont want gobs of it mucking about and you sure dont want it clogging up an oil passage.  (Assuming an approx dia of 1/2", on a small 3/8 or 1/4" bolt I would only use one drop and tilt the fastener back and forth and let it wick up & down some of the threads before install)

I agree with Bike beezer Trevors instructions on the dimples on the exterior of the plug and done carefully and without excess is adequate on its own, However MOST of what I see on these old bikes a lot of people have been there before me and bodgery/sodomy has occurred.  I often will take a small carbide ball file or christmas tree shaped carbide on a dremel tool or most of the time I use air die grinders in the shop, but I dress up those dimples and run a tap thru the threads and a thread file on the plug and do a test fitting LONG before final assy,   (This is the stage where ALL threads are tested and cleaned and a test mock up of parts, then it all comes back apart and cleaned like prepping for heart surgery on yourself. Seeing as the oil system IS your motors cardiovascular system too clean is never enough)

So, back to final assy, at this point you installed the new or reconditioned sludge plug with the blue loctite., I then stand the crank on end using a wooden fixture and at that point will likely apply my version of the dimple such as what Trev says, then around the perimeter of the hole, I will carefully add about 2 drops, and using a clean scribe will assist the wicking of the green liquid around the hole.  Again, very little amount.  Then I walk away allow to cure.  As the instructions say its got a capillary action and will seep into the threads and along that threaded joint. SMALL Amount!
So, 2 things here. LOCTITE has changed the product description somewhat since I last visited this issue and read their tech data.  It USED to be marketed as a bearing retainer compound, and when I worked as a mill wright in a factory-manuf we used it a LOT just for that purpose,,  My use of it as a security locking to keep threaded parts from backing off that were already assembled was kind of off the books but reading the tech material I concluded that was a good secondary use.

In SOME applications (Lycoming acft engines and some continentals) they use a cotter pin on the end of connecting rods to secure the nut.  Much gnashing of teeth and dire warnings about what will happen *IF* you dont properly install the cotter pin and pinch/twist the tail on them,. By spinning at RPM the cotter pin can self destroy itself and "Fretting" much like you taking a piece of wire and bending it back and forth till it work hardens and fractures.  So i always felt that the green loctite on connecting rod bolts after torqued and installed was a brilliant extra safety mechanism and all engineering and design in acft is ALL about redundancy.  (Triple redundant is the goal).  So, while acft related I am hoping I illustrated HOW using Green can be used after a part has been assembled.

As to your question on flush or till it bottoms out, that is actually wonderful you asked as some gorillas will just mash down a fastener until it stops.  So, to address that as I said, most 50-70 year old parts I see have been exposed to multiple DPO (Dreaded Previous Owner) and often a sludge trap plug has to be drilled out or is so mangled its unusable moving forward.  I also am a BIG fan of the Hex plug replacements, Now I have rebuilt a number of BSA unit twins and LOADS of Triumphs but never did a A10 bottom end and they differ somewhat, plugs depending on which crank might or might not be available, but suffice to say a replacement plug CAN be made by a clever lad with a lathe, So what you MIGHT be working with could be the same or original or might not be.  On many of the Triumph plugs they are not the same dimensions as the originals and so some careful thought needs to be applied.

Remember what I said a test fitting and mock up should be done before final assy??? This is the point where you investigate this.  Look very carefully at the oil passage coming up the crank cheek into the main sludge passage, then measure the plug you have and the depth of the threads, Make SURE the plug you are using will NOT block off the oil way or obstruct it, On Triumphs many of the plugs are well short of the oil passage once installed flush with the crank, but never assume.  I cannot tell you over the internet what yours will need, you will have to measure and check yourself.  But what I found is that a plug that is much shorter than original might be a little loose in the threads and COULD self screw itself IN as well as OUT, so, the dimples and loctite are an important feature here.  ( i have seen once a plug that was much too long and would have covered that oil passage. I faced off a lot of material on the end with a belt sander as I dont have a Milling machine on site.)

Lastly just to be pedantic, I cant stress enough the importance of the cleaning, checking and thread servicing WELL PRIOR to final assy of the motor.  Triumph factory manuals have a good illustration in them on this and for jointed flanges such as cyl heads or case to barrell the threads should be tapped with a starter then bottoming tap and then the surface checked or proofed for perfect flatness. Many times, especially with a steel stud into alloy the area around the hole will pucker and bulge slightly.  This is where oil leaks come from as well as improper torque. So a chamfer or taper carbide would be used to slightly chamfer the hole opening and then the threads chased again.  EVERY fastener and every threaded hole and every nut should have the threads ran over with a tap, die or thread file in a pinch.

In a internal engine area such as the sludge trap, if you DO NOT do this, it is likely & Probable that final assy will be interrupted with a stubborn fastener or plug not threading in right, and probably you are launching steel or alloy shards,shavings & Swarf INTO critical oil passages. (or laying about ready to enter the blood stream/oil system.   Of course self locking fasteners are an animal all their own.  In most cases you never re-use a self locking fastener but there is a style of pinch lock nuts that can be if they pass the test.
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Re: Sludge Trap Plugs
« Reply #22 on: 14.11. 2017 20:34 »
On my small journal crank (where the plugs are identical) after the above-mentioned dressing and thread filing and scrupulous recleaning activities, I then indexed the oil-feed end plug as it was obvious that probably 40% of the oil "hole" was going to be obscured when the plug was screwed down tight. The plug was then relieved with a file at the relevant point to allow the max unimpeded flow of oil to the big end.
Probably would have worked OK as was, but nice to get the details right.

Offline BSA_54A10

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Re: Sludge Trap Plugs
« Reply #23 on: 29.04. 2018 08:13 »

VERY BIG SNIP

First of all you are never using LARGE amounts of these compounds,, I can take a photo in the shop on a bolt with how much i use, It is very small amounts.  I once had a shop customer who grabbed a bottle of the Blue (Its expensive) and squirted half the bottle on a bolt, Wasteful!

I cut the opening very carefully and use a small needle to prick a small hole in the top of the bottle and then when not used often I then use that needle to clear the opening before use.  (Its a reactive chemical glue basically- like super glue).  So on a sludge trap plug it would get 3 drops on the circumference of the threads
which when the plug is threaded in and if you quickly removed it you would see it left a VERY thin-small sheen on about 2/3rds of the threads.  You dont want gobs of it mucking about and you sure dont want it clogging up an oil passage.  (Assuming an approx dia of 1/2", on a small 3/8 or 1/4" bolt I would only use one drop and tilt the fastener back and forth and let it wick up & down some of the threads before install)


So, back to final assy, at this point you installed the new or reconditioned sludge plug with the blue loctite., I then stand the crank on end using a wooden fixture and at that point will likely apply my version of the dimple such as what Trev says, then around the perimeter of the hole, I will carefully add about 2 drops, and using a clean scribe will assist the wicking of the green liquid around the hole.  Again, very little amount.  Then I walk away allow to cure.  As the instructions say its got a capillary action and will seep into the threads and along that threaded joint. SMALL Amount!

And EVEN BIGGER SNIP


Revisited this thread as we are currently doing 3 or 4 bottom ends both big & small journals.

So Sluggo with your method above are you saying the bottom 2/3 get the blue and the top gets the green ?
So as such the blue & green do not come in contact with each other .

I was taught never to allow any locktite product to come into contact with any other locktite product as the two combining can compromise both.

OR are you allowing the blue to cure and then the green to wick into any voids left by the green.
Also I would have thought that the crank would get hot enough for blue to soften and in this application red was required.
Bike Beesa
Trevor

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Re: Sludge Trap Plugs
« Reply #24 on: 29.04. 2018 19:19 »
" OR are you allowing the blue to cure and then the green to wick into any voids left by the green.
Also I would have thought that the crank would get hot enough for blue to soften and in this application red was required."
---------------------------------------
Well, this is an interesting way of looking at it, I suppose some degree of the quote above..  As I said, a very small amount at 3 spots on a triumph plug being thats approx an Inch, but less if smaller ID. And very small drops on CLEAN threads so when threaded in for final install it will by nature coat many of the threads.  It cures fairly fast, (Absence of air and all) and I dont work fast, so It would be sometime before I followed it with the green.  No intent to intermix, and if you are worried then give it 24 hours.  But the Green is intended to wick into the initial bevel or void of the joint, not all the threads.

I do the same process for green only on rod bolts for extra security.  (Rod bolts should always be done dry and clean unless manuf specs otherwise.  But once torqued, I often will apply a drop of green to the threads protruding.  In theory properly torqued rod bolts (stretched) will hold, but a dab of green is extra piece of mind.

I wouldnt imagine crank and rods get that hot to defeat loctite, In fact I would be very surprised if so.  Blue has a much lower break away yield than red, But the best way to unstick a loctited fastener is with concentrated heat.  Check the Loctite Corp specs, But when removing a Red loctite secured fasterner I often apply a small torch head to it till it starts to smoke..
Remember that any advice received on a free internet forum is generally worth about 1/2 of what you paid for it.
We overcharge every 3rd customer to pass the savings onto you.
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