Author Topic: another cable soldering question  (Read 1262 times)

Online mikeb

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another cable soldering question
« on: 15.12. 2017 09:37 »
so i've read the threads and consensus is use some lower temp solder (to not harden the cable) like either tinmans or a plumbers 70/30 (sn/pb) solder, and preferably a solder pot. and NEVER use electrical solder. but why not? tinmans is quoted as many alloys but typically 60/40 or 62/38 (with or without bits of Bismuth or Antimony) and electrical solder is also 60/40, like the 5kg roll i have in the shed. so why the beef on electrical solder? is if the roisin cores? or a plan to make me spend more money??

(I'll probably get a newfangled 'lead free plumbers solder with silver' as i assume its harder and i can melt 450F, and yes I'll follow all the tips on cutting/cleaning/splaying the cable end etc. its a clutch not brake.)

but why not electrical solder?
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Online Rex

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Re: another cable soldering question
« Reply #1 on: 15.12. 2017 10:25 »
Been using it for years with no problems at all. I think the "don't use electrical solder" Net idea came from someone "assuming" that the resin core would be sufficient flux to solder a Bowden cable, and being soundly told that it wasn't, and of course, it isn't sufficient.
The exact ratios of the constituents aren't important to this operation...I've used lead flashing off-cuts before now.
All down to cleanliness, a good flux and a bit of knowledge.

Online Black Sheep

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Re: another cable soldering question
« Reply #2 on: 15.12. 2017 17:06 »
If you are soldering an oily cable, electrical switch cleaner does a grand job of degreasing it before you get on with the job.
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Offline ellis

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Re: another cable soldering question
« Reply #3 on: 15.12. 2017 18:36 »
And don't forget the Bakers flux. It's a must for Bowden cable soldering.  ;)

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Online mikeb

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Re: another cable soldering question
« Reply #4 on: 15.12. 2017 19:09 »
ok thanks for answers. 2 further questions arising:
1. i thought all our cables are bowden cables...??
2. what's wrong with the flux on electrical solder for cables? I'm assuming there's not enough to block oxidation with the thicker steel cable or is it a mater of the type of flux?
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Online Rex

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Re: another cable soldering question
« Reply #5 on: 15.12. 2017 21:24 »
Our cables are Bowden cables, but resin-cored solder (the usual electrical stuff) has insufficient flux for a Bowden cable.
Baker's Fluid, though necessary on most modern stainless cables, is to avoided if possible as it's far too aggressive. Ordinary "brown" flux is plenty good enough for traditional cables anyway.

Online JulianS

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Re: another cable soldering question
« Reply #6 on: 15.12. 2017 22:54 »
Been using multicore solder to make my cables for many years no problems encountered.

Offline BSA_54A10

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Re: another cable soldering question
« Reply #7 on: 16.12. 2017 23:01 »
Been using multicore solder to make my cables for many years no problems encountered.

Then you obviously have a very good technique.
Chemically the fluxes for copper & steel are different
Steel uses a chlorine based flux ZnCl while copper uses a nitrate based flux KNO3.
This is why Bakers must be washed off while rosin core flux can just be wiped off.
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Trevor

Online mikeb

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Re: another cable soldering question
« Reply #8 on: 17.12. 2017 00:49 »
thanks for all the replies guys - curiosity satisfied and job done. i did get some bernzomatic lead free plumbers solder with a % of silver. it didn't say the actually alloy (even on the spec sheet) and the flux was a white paste - i have no idea if more suited to copper or steel. either way i unfurled the cable an inch, cleaned with solvents including electrical contact cleaner and lightly sanded each cable strand. and rosed the end. soldering it was easy with a hot iron and the solder notably harder than electrical solder. job done

cheers
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Online JulianS

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Re: another cable soldering question
« Reply #9 on: 17.12. 2017 13:17 »
It would be interesting to know what negative effects members have actually experinced using muliticore, rather than just the theory.

Offline a10 gf

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Re: another cable soldering question
« Reply #10 on: 17.12. 2017 16:59 »
I got what I call "tin (plumber) solder" which seems harder\stiffer\more solid than any type of "lead solder" electronic\multicore I've seen or used.

Have done some brake\clutch cables, only trusted\used tin\plumber, and would never use electronic solder.
Am using electronics solder for electronics, and tin 'plumber' or silver\bronze (as appropriate) for anything needing any kind of strength.

Just my impression \ opinion \ choice, for all that I know, electronic stuff may be as good as the tin in practical use, but I don't need to \ want to test if it's the case :O)


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Offline BSA_54A10

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Re: another cable soldering question
« Reply #11 on: 18.12. 2017 06:43 »
It would be interesting to know what negative effects members have actually experinced using muliticore, rather than just the theory.

Only two things
1) it does not adhere to steel as well as tinmans solder or wiping metal
2) it is not as stiff as tinmans solder

If done properly it should not make much of a difference
It is when it is not done properly that it really becomes a problem.
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Offline BSA_54A10

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Re: another cable soldering question
« Reply #12 on: 18.12. 2017 07:15 »
I got what I call "tin (plumber) solder" which seems harder\stiffer\more solid than any type of "lead solder" electronic\multicore I've seen or used.

Have done some brake\clutch cables, only trusted\used tin\plumber, and would never use electronic solder.
Am using electronics solder for electronics, and tin 'plumber' or silver\bronze (as appropriate) for anything needing any kind of strength.

Just my impression \ opinion \ choice, for all that I know, electronic stuff may be as good as the tin in practical use, but I don't need to \ want to test if it's the case :O)

Naming solders is a problem now days as different smelters use the same name for different alloys.
At one time they were graded A through K and each letter had a specific composition and most importantly impurity content as the bulk of solder is made tertiary ( from scrap )
below is a good explination of solders and as you see they come in a lot of grades.
Tin is harder than lead but melts at a lower temperature and is a lot more brittle.
All of them end up with some of the eutectic composition and Lead / tin eutectic is one that is bigger in the solid phase than the liquid so make really tight joints.
Now this is for binary Pb-Sn solder.
Very small amounts of Cu, Fe & Ag are deliberately added to various grades to enhance the working of the solder.
For those of you not familiar with phase diagrams, all the V shape above the top line is liquid.
Below this line, every thing is "mushy" ie part liquid & part solid.
Below the second line everything is solid.
For soldering electronic stuff you want the solder to go solid very quickly so the parts do not move during soldering.
For lead wiping you want the solder to be molten for a long time so you can work it into joints, same for leadlight work.
www.farnell.com/datasheets/315929.pdf

If the solder is going to be held molten in an iron pot as is common in the cable industry then it has 0,5 % to 1% of Fe added, this being the solubality of Fe in that particular grade of solder.
The reason for this is to prevent the solder disolving the pot it is being melted in.
Radiator solder has some Cu added for the same reason and that also makes it harden faster so the parts do not come apart while soldering.

If you do some research you will find nearly every grade of solder can be bought as a stick, or wire and the wire can be plain or rosin cored and in some cases multi rosin cored with different rosins that either do different things or react with each other when melted.

Now that the pencil dic* ( to quote Bill Murry in Ghost Busters ) who failed science in 4th grade have taken over we now have around 2000 alternative solders which do not do as good a job as the Pb-Sn solders and a lot of these are far more enviromentally dangerous than the old totally safe Pb-Sn solders.
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Trevor

Online mikeb

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Re: another cable soldering question
« Reply #13 on: 18.12. 2017 08:29 »
that's interesting Trevor
based on that spec sheet descriptions and melting temp i assume i ended up with 96S or similar
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Offline BSA_54A10

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Re: another cable soldering question
« Reply #14 on: 18.12. 2017 10:57 »
that's interesting Trevor
based on that spec sheet descriptions and melting temp i assume i ended up with 96S or similar

If there is no marking on the sticks it is very difficult to work out what is what without analytical equipment or a very accurate furnace.
I have about 20 kg of various batches we whipped up in the lab.
We made about 200 different "secret formula" solders for the local radiator repairers, panelbeaters & plumbers.
5/8 of SFA difference between any of them but we got paid handsomly for them and they were all made from old analytical plugs & dip samples that were past the manditory retention periods. Thus all we had to do was weight each sample then do the math as we already had the precise chemical composition.
For most of them I always felt the big things was they were using the same sized rods and that makes a big difference because you mentally know the melt timing.
Bike Beesa
Trevor