Author Topic: Mikuni VM30 advice  (Read 2876 times)

Online Billybream

  • Resident Legend
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jan 2012
  • Posts: 651
  • Karma: 8
Mikuni VM30 advice
« on: 07.02. 2018 16:25 »
Looking for some help and advice on the equivalent Mikuni carb to fit my 1960 Super Rocket.
Running Concentric at present but the throttle slide has worn and most probably the body as as well, could replace slide with new anodised version but might prove false economy if the body bore is shot.
So thinking of Mikuni, SRM offer ready jetted carb, and so do Allen's and Motocarb, but just checking if I could buy std carb and jet it myself.

 * Can anybody offer some recommendations regarding jet sizes.
* Will my existing throttle cable fit
* Is the starting lever easy to operate with gloved hands

Thanks
1960 Super Rocket, owned since 1966, back on the road 2012 after being laid up for 29yrs.

Online berger

  • Wise & Enlightened
  • *
  • Join Date: Nov 2017
  • Posts: 2945
  • Karma: 20
  • keith.uk 500sscafe.norbsa JDM honda 750fz
Re: Mikuni VM30 advice
« Reply #1 on: 07.02. 2018 16:52 »
hi billy I got one for my shooting star,carnt advise on jet sizes but cable did fit with a bit of adjuster alteration. I had to get used to starting on a choke lever and found out I was running with choke slightly on because you have to positively lift the lever up so I allways do this without gloves on.i also fitted a secondary spring for slide shut off because the mikuni spring is very light. apart from that it has performed well and I did loads of plug chops, before this carb it was fitted with a 60 year old monoblock that needed too much messing with ,especialy to stop it hunting when just coming off pilot jet so the mikuni is working well hope this helps in your decision

Offline A10 JWO

  • Resident Legend
  • *****
  • Join Date: Oct 2012
  • Posts: 730
  • Karma: 2
Re: Mikuni VM30 advice
« Reply #2 on: 07.02. 2018 17:46 »
If it's like the one I have on a different bike, you can get a cable choke conversion. The slides can wear out quicker than an Amal. Don't Wassel do a carb ready to fit and they look like Amal. Dellorto are a lovely carb and jetting kits are easy to get hold of. They go up to 36 mm. Regards

Offline chaterlea25

  • Wise & Enlightened
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2009
  • Posts: 4026
  • Karma: 54
Re: Mikuni VM30 advice
« Reply #3 on: 07.02. 2018 17:47 »
Hi Billy,
I have run a 30mm Mikuni on my SR since I built it 15 years ago  *smile* (no signs of wear)
Buying Mikuni spares to modify a random carb will soon cost as much as buying a ready made kit
A 45 degree fitting for the cable at the carb top helps with the 30mm size carb
If you have relations or friends in USA who would help out you could get one there at a lower cost
If I was going to get another I would opt for a cable choke
I got a cable kit to go with the carb, it has a "soft" inner wire that works well with the soft return springs used
With a 30mm carb you need an offset entry pancake filter

John
1961 Super Rocket
1963 RGS (ongoing)

Offline edboy

  • Resident Legend
  • *****
  • Join Date: Oct 2012
  • Posts: 531
  • Karma: 5
Re: Mikuni VM30 advice
« Reply #4 on: 07.02. 2018 21:16 »
i ve used mikuni s in the past and i believe they are worth replacing worn out concentrics. but the plain old monobloc is as good if not better than a mikuni in my opinion. buy a new one if you old ones worn and they are a lot easier to tune. great carb once youve understood how it works.

Online Billybream

  • Resident Legend
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jan 2012
  • Posts: 651
  • Karma: 8
Re: Mikuni VM30 advice
« Reply #5 on: 08.02. 2018 14:15 »
Many thanks for all your advice, still undecided.
1960 Super Rocket, owned since 1966, back on the road 2012 after being laid up for 29yrs.

Offline Sluggo

  • Serial Hoarder, or Eccentric Collector depending on viewpoint
  • Resident Legend
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jun 2017
  • Posts: 654
  • Karma: 11
Re: Mikuni VM30 advice
« Reply #6 on: 09.02. 2018 05:52 »
Well there is many choices and options here, including the JRC/PKW carb which MIGHT suit your needs even better, simpler and less cost.

#1 question is, keep a Monobloc if you wish to appear stock and of the trophy hunter/bike show sort.
#2 If you value easy starts, better fuel economy, slight increase in power then,& just ride the damn thing by all means replace the amal.

**Important note, I despise the concentric amals, but kind of appreciate and like the monoblocs, but on my RIDERS I love me a Mikuni or the flat slide PKW/JRC carbs.
Second part of this, Some pillow biter will whinge endlessly about putting "japanese crap" on your BI,  Nonsense.
Mikuni has been buying and using AMAL designs since the 1920s, and the VM carb was one of those. Designed as a logical replacement the bean counters and gin soaked pea brains at Norton-BSA-Triumph REFUSED to use them, so left with a great product and no market it was sold on to Mikuni.  The later versions Mk2 Amal share many of the original design elements of the VM carb, and were forced by US import laws, not common sense or logic.**

There is a wealth of info for jetting Mikunis for your application  as its no different than any other 650cc 4 stroke twin.  I can send you or post a variety of links to them.  (perhaps late tonight but certainly by this weekend)

So, heres a few random thoughts that might or might not help.

A) You CAN locate used or other application Mikunis for cheap, but some are for 2 stroke applications and as noted, can add up purchasing correct slide, jets & needles.  Not that I have not done so, but I have a huge stash of parts, and access to service parts so no big deal to me.  If I see Mikunis at swap meets/Autojumbles or on the net at a good price I snap them up.

B) Its not a choke or start lever, Its a ENRICHENER, totally different setup, and works well,. Occasionally with shit gas they clog but easy fix, use the 10 or 12 mm wrench and remove the brass plunger and squirt some carb cleaner thru and some compressed air and Robert is a close relative.

C) Slides and springs.  Me?? I LOVE the heavy chromed brass slides on these and a decent spring, Some use a light weight alloy slide,, IMHO spring for the good Brass one with the plating plus they DONT wear, (I have some with 30 years service and no discernable wear)

D) SUDCO is the distributor here in the US and their manual is excellent and covers the gamut of Mikuni applications,  When ordering in Mikuni kits for shop customers I ask and they include on for free,,, but its not a LOT of money for the excellent info and wealth of knowledge.
See: http://www.sudco.com/mikuni_manual.html
Some of the info is online, and perhaps you can see what you need by looking,
See: http://www.sudco.com/jetting_assistance.html

E) No offence to SRM, but usually their prices tend to be rather high.  There is a variety of sellers on FeeBay who offer kits at much more reasonable numbers.  Some are so cheap the kits are often at or below my wholesale costs.   "Sportingforless" was a seller who used to rule that market, dont know if they still do.
I only order kits anymore as a favor as I dont make anything on them.

F) I agree about the angle fitting for the cables for the slide.. On many bikes its a wear point or can cause sticking of the slide when the cable cocks,,  On some bikes I use a spiral wrap and sealed in shrink tube to keep the cable run clean.   

G) The Yamaha XS twin crowd are HUGE consumers of these kits because the CV carbs stock are crap and expensive.. so the Mikuni and JRC/PKW carbs are big sellers to them,  MikesXS is kind of the Mecca for Yammie guys.  For some ideas

See: https://www.mikesxs.net/fuel-system/mikuni-aftermarket-vm-roundslide-carbs-and-parts.html
See: https://www.mikesxs.net/fuel-system/xs-pwk-performance-carbs-and-parts.html

H) The Mikuni roundslide VM carbs are awesome, but some feel a bit dated as some of the new versions with the flat slides are better, I have not done side by side testing, but it would appear there might be some validity to it.  In general the VM satisfies everything I need, But I will be looking into the newer versions
TM? Flat slides with the accy pumps, I hear great things.  I have a version of one of these going on my Buell this spring. 
**BUT** Here is the thing, The Monobloc is dead nuts simple and easy.  Most BI owners want just that and dont need anything more.  So, thats why my friend Bill started making the PKW/JRC carbs to suit that market.  The Mikunis VM roundslide is a very adjustable-tuneable and flexible instrument vastly improved and superior to those marzak pot metal door stops that came on our bikes.  However I liken them to Holley 4 barrel. For the guy who wants to dial in perfectly and every adjustment possible they are great.  But not everyone wants that level of sophistication.

I) Mikuni typically runs opposite other carbs in jet and slide numbers,  If an amal goes a bigger number thats richer.  Mikuni means its more air, thus leaner.  People get sideways with that all the time.

Remember that any advice received on a free internet forum is generally worth about 1/2 of what you paid for it.
We overcharge every 3rd customer to pass the savings onto you.
You can have High Quality, Low price, and fast turnaround. Pick any 2, Never all 3 at the same time.

Offline Sluggo

  • Serial Hoarder, or Eccentric Collector depending on viewpoint
  • Resident Legend
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jun 2017
  • Posts: 654
  • Karma: 11
Re: Mikuni VM30 advice
« Reply #7 on: 09.02. 2018 06:12 »
Other option,  Instead of the Mikuni VM round slides (Which I LOVE  *beer* *beer*) Depending on your needs, you MIGHT consider an easier and cheaper alternative.
So let me introduce you lads (if not familiar with already) The JRC/PWK carbs.  I have been a JRC Dealer and friends with the owner for a very long time and greatly admire Bill and his organization.  One of the nicest people in the business.
Some years back Bill knew that many BI owners were tired of trying to make those pot metal wonder Amals work.  (To be fair, I am mostly referring to the Concentrics,, I hate those).  Many BI owners dont  need aerospace level sophistication and just something simple that works and does NOT have the problems the Amals do.
So, he sent out his design brief and not a lot of enthusiasm in the market but came up with a clear winner.  This is a carb largely based on a Keihin flat slide.  Bill gets these made to his specs and makes adapters to suit our BI applications.  You CAN find other PWK carbs out there, but most are not set up for BI. (Generally 2 stroke apps).

These are so simple and easy to run its not funny, plus AMAL and vokes air cleaners fit, You can use Amal type cables  and you can opt for either the plunger or cable actuated enrichener circuits (just like Mikuni VMs use). 

Victory library has a great write up on these complete with pictures..
See: http://victorylibrary.com/brit/jrc-c.htm

If you think this is sacrilege, See what the Piled arms, newsletter of the BSA OC had to say on the topic.
See: https://www.bsaocsc.org/images/JRC_Carb_L_Bennet_4.pdf

If you lads dont have a UK distributor for these, PM me and we can work something out.  I am a dealer for these but if you have a local dealer, by all means support them.
Remember that any advice received on a free internet forum is generally worth about 1/2 of what you paid for it.
We overcharge every 3rd customer to pass the savings onto you.
You can have High Quality, Low price, and fast turnaround. Pick any 2, Never all 3 at the same time.

Offline Sluggo

  • Serial Hoarder, or Eccentric Collector depending on viewpoint
  • Resident Legend
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jun 2017
  • Posts: 654
  • Karma: 11
Re: Mikuni VM30 advice
« Reply #8 on: 09.02. 2018 08:05 »
Here is an older tuning and instructional manual from Mikuni USA,, (Its dated but still valid)

See: http://www.mikuni.com/pdf/vmmanual.pdf

A step by step guide to getting jetting correct

See: http://www.iwt.com.au/mikunicarb.htm

Vintage bike magazine from the Triumph TIOC excellent how to:

See: http://vintagebikemagazine.com/technical-articles/mikuni-and-general-carburetor-tuning/

Bushmans tuning guide (mikuni & Amal) Well respected expert

See: http://www.jba.bc.ca/Bushmans%20Carb%20Tuning.html

And a handy dandy chart for most every application worth considering assuming it loads correctly.
############# EDIT########## I cant get it to load, tried several times. Its a HTML file which is not supported here,.. However you can find the same chart from these nice guys. I have talked to them in the past and they gave me permission to use the material.  If someone can convert it into A supported file, ping me,

Go to this site/Chart... See: http://www.geckokustoms.com/blog/50-carb-jetting-table.html

*** NOTE*** A 30mm will work with a 650 BSA,, but typically a VM32 and VM 34 is specified for MOST 650 twin 4 stroke applications.  the setting for a VM34mm on a 650 Triumph single carb is:
Mikuni VM34   260   35   P6   6DH4   1.0   2.5   

Victory library lists these to start with, tune from there:
Setting up the VM Mikuni's for a British twin is not difficult. The following list is a starting point, make adjustments as required by road testing.

On a 650/750 Twin (Triumph &/or Norton) for a PAIR of Mikuni VM's 32mm dia, use pilot 20-25, throttle slide 2.5, needle jet type 159, needle jet size P-2, P-4, needle 6DH2, 3, or 4, Main 220-230, air jet 1.0.

On a 850 Norton for a SINGLE Mikuni VM 34mm dia, use pilot 30-35, throttle slide 3, needle jet type 159, needle jet size P-4, P-6, needle 6DH3 or 4, Main 260, air jet 1.0.

I have more material but most of its printed stuff, not digital or on the web.

Remember that any advice received on a free internet forum is generally worth about 1/2 of what you paid for it.
We overcharge every 3rd customer to pass the savings onto you.
You can have High Quality, Low price, and fast turnaround. Pick any 2, Never all 3 at the same time.

Online Billybream

  • Resident Legend
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jan 2012
  • Posts: 651
  • Karma: 8
Re: Mikuni VM30 advice
« Reply #9 on: 09.02. 2018 08:08 »
Many thanks Sluggo for your much detailed information on Mikuni, still not sure which way to go and have already investigated the JRC alternative, and we have a agent here in the UK.
Decided to fully strip my MK 1 Concentric and inspect, then make decision to make do or replace.
1960 Super Rocket, owned since 1966, back on the road 2012 after being laid up for 29yrs.

Offline Sluggo

  • Serial Hoarder, or Eccentric Collector depending on viewpoint
  • Resident Legend
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jun 2017
  • Posts: 654
  • Karma: 11
Re: Mikuni VM30 advice
« Reply #10 on: 09.02. 2018 08:27 »
well best of luck with the concentric.  If you do go that route, its generally advisable to buy one of the new modernized ones, but if refurbing the original type concentric I would advise updating the tickler plunger (Avoid stink finger) A "Stay up" float as modern fuels kill the originals , A modern Viton tip needle,  and read up on the service bulletins for setting float height, and making sure the pilot circuit is clean. 

I have milk crates full of the damn things, and last year started cycling them thru a commercial/Industrial Sonic cleaner at my wifes machine shop,, and then selling off the decent ones.  Its a big job and been stalled partway.  Some people like the concentrics although I cant imagine why.
Cheers!
Remember that any advice received on a free internet forum is generally worth about 1/2 of what you paid for it.
We overcharge every 3rd customer to pass the savings onto you.
You can have High Quality, Low price, and fast turnaround. Pick any 2, Never all 3 at the same time.

Offline muskrat

  • Global Moderator
  • Wise & Enlightened
  • **
  • Join Date: Jul 2009
  • Posts: 10780
  • Karma: 130
  • Lithgow NSW Oz
    • Shoalhaven Classic Motorcycle Club Inc
Re: Mikuni VM30 advice
« Reply #11 on: 09.02. 2018 09:49 »
I have two 30mm PWK's on my A10 Cafe. Took a lot to set'em up (didn't find any data for two on a modified A10) but luv'em now.
Sluggo, I haven't been able to find cable conversion for the enrichener with a spliter box to run two (a real pain getting to the inside knob, wish they came in left and right). Any ideas?
Cheers
'51 A7 plunger, '57 A7SS racer now a A10CR, '78 XT500, '83 CB1100F, 88 HD FXST, 2000 CBR929RR ex Honda Australia Superbike .
Australia
Muskys Plunger A7

Offline Sluggo

  • Serial Hoarder, or Eccentric Collector depending on viewpoint
  • Resident Legend
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jun 2017
  • Posts: 654
  • Karma: 11
Re: Mikuni VM30 advice
« Reply #12 on: 09.02. 2018 10:22 »
I will have to look at my invoice, But YES,, it IS possible to run the cable(s) for the enrichener.   I ordered a set for my friend Jeff.   This was last fall sometime.  Its being set up on his Vincent Rapide.  He had some Amal concentrics that were totally knackered & bodged on there (Along with a big blob of silicone sealant).

Originally we were going to use the stub manifolds and use Heavy duty radiator hose, and some stainless clamps to get that racer look as well as isolate the carbs from heat and vibes, But the problem arose with IDs and ODs and got too complicated. So, he ordered some specialist Vincent manifolds that go to a flange mount and we will refit the flanges on the PWks.

Jeff wanted a cable 2>1 setup for the enricheners.  Something I felt was slightly over complicated (not that my spigot setup wasnt)  But I supplied him a Amal type handlebar choke lever and we ordered some cables and I had some splitters in my parts stash.

The PROBLEM is, you may understand but few others do,, there really is no such thing as off the shelf cables that work perfectly.  So, some fettling required.  But I will look at the invoices but I BELIEVE we used shorty cables from an Amal setup for a 2>1.  I mocked some of this stuff up on the Vinnie already, but we had some other logistical issues and the project stalled.  (He is a military officer and off on duty, will return soon)  I planned to photo and document the whole project, and certain to upset the Vinnie community fussbudgets as they tend to be.

Edit:  Cables tend to be too long on the housings even if the overall length is okay, So trimming back the plastic sheathing and then the spiral wound metal and then refitting the top hats so the cables are not sloppy or binding.  Rarely ever do any cables fit these days and with the variety of throttles, levers, carbs, adjusters-spacers and such most manufacturers gave up and the cable MAY be XX inches/MM but the sheathing has to be fettled to fit.

But yes,, it certainly IS possible to do.
Remember that any advice received on a free internet forum is generally worth about 1/2 of what you paid for it.
We overcharge every 3rd customer to pass the savings onto you.
You can have High Quality, Low price, and fast turnaround. Pick any 2, Never all 3 at the same time.

Offline rocker21

  • A's Good Friend
  • ***
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 202
  • Karma: 2
Re: Mikuni VM30 advice
« Reply #13 on: 09.02. 2018 14:50 »
the JRC dealer in the uk is Brillbike parts  www.brillbikeparts.co.uk, he has most bits in stock and can be found at the kempton bike jumble, near paul goff.
1960 A7SS, 1954 Ariel fieldmaster 500 twin, motoguzzi Monza 500, motoguzzi V7III special, Yamaha sr400 (2014)

Offline muskrat

  • Global Moderator
  • Wise & Enlightened
  • **
  • Join Date: Jul 2009
  • Posts: 10780
  • Karma: 130
  • Lithgow NSW Oz
    • Shoalhaven Classic Motorcycle Club Inc
Re: Mikuni VM30 advice
« Reply #14 on: 09.02. 2018 19:41 »
G'day Sluggo.
I removed the flange off mine and got a pair of rubber manifold boots from a Lambretta, https://tinyurl.com/y9usos5r being able to spin the right side carb a little to adjust the pilot screw. Wish the were made handed R/L.
Thanks for that link rocker. I see they have the choke cable conversion. The page is 5 years old so prices will have risen.
The JRC/PWK carb is a good unit and great value and is jetted for a std A10. My problem was my A10 is anything but std. and most tuning is done with the needle but with so many to choose from it can be confusing https://tinyurl.com/ycsvynwo
Cheers
'51 A7 plunger, '57 A7SS racer now a A10CR, '78 XT500, '83 CB1100F, 88 HD FXST, 2000 CBR929RR ex Honda Australia Superbike .
Australia
Muskys Plunger A7