Author Topic: 1960 Super Rocket frame measurement required please  (Read 1056 times)

Offline Stillwaters

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Hi All,  I am dry building a 1960 Super Rocket basket case and although the swingarm pivot spindle nut was loose (and the cerrated lockwasher missing) when I got the frame, the swingarm does slightly rub on the inside of the near-side passenger footrest frame loop.

It is difficult to see how this could be corrected by fully tightening the spindle so I am looking for some measurements for how the swingarm sits relative to the frame so I can determine if anything is bent?

I have searched the forums but cannot find any dimension of swingarm/frame clearances or distance between rear footrest frame loops?

Can anyone help me here please?

Thanks.  Phil
1960 Super Rocket
1966 A65 Hornet
1962 Triton 500
1979 NVT Easy Rider
1972 BSA Ariel 3
1979 Suzuki Intruder 700 Rhino Trike

Online Klaus

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Re: 1960 Super Rocket frame measurement required please
« Reply #1 on: 21.03. 2017 19:59 »
It's Goldstar but should be the same messurements.


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Online JulianS

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Re: 1960 Super Rocket frame measurement required please
« Reply #2 on: 21.03. 2017 20:08 »
If the bike was used with a loose spindle nut then it is possible that the hole in the frame member has been hammered to a slight oversize or elongated, allowing the swinging arm to be slightly misaligned in the frame.

There is usually only little clearance between the swing arm and frame member - on my 1962 A10 about 55 thou. Thats with bike on centre stand, rear wheel clear of ground and rear unit set in mid poition.

Have you tightened the swinging arm nut to see what happens?

Offline Jules

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Re: 1960 Super Rocket frame measurement required please
« Reply #3 on: 22.03. 2017 01:34 »
I had my frame straightened and the swing arm is still slightly o/set to one side. I don't think these frames were ever "precision engineered" though, my experience with the headstock being something similar too. I have now ended up just ensuring that the wheels are aligned to the best of my ability and am hoping for the best  *eek*.
When I was exploring all this with the frame people, they repeatedly pointed out how bad Harleys are today for non alignment, yet they are still ridden every day!

Offline Stillwaters

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Re: 1960 Super Rocket frame measurement required please
« Reply #4 on: 23.03. 2017 18:28 »
Thanks people for your comments. I can't tighten the spindle nut as suggested because, as I have said, I lack the cerrated lock-washer under the nut which just locks up hard against a shoulder on the spindle, still leaving the whole spindle loose in the frame.

I am reassured however but would still like some guidance on the distance between rear foot peg frame loops and any ideas for how to check the swingarm for alignment. I figured that if the bike had ever had an impact on the rear offside then the rear wheel assembly would maintain distance across the end of the swingarm but both swingarm legs could be offset relative to the swingarm spindle?

It would have to be a fair wallop mind you and I can see no evidence of any such damage.

There is a little wear on the spindle-end frame hole but I still can't get more than about 25 thou clearance at best between swingarm and frame. Maybe I am worrying too much and all will be sorted with new silentblocs and all tightened up?

Phil


1960 Super Rocket
1966 A65 Hornet
1962 Triton 500
1979 NVT Easy Rider
1972 BSA Ariel 3
1979 Suzuki Intruder 700 Rhino Trike

Offline chaterlea25

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Re: 1960 Super Rocket frame measurement required please
« Reply #5 on: 23.03. 2017 19:48 »
Hi Phil,
I do not believe that you can rely on the footrest loops to judge or measure from
If the bike goes "down the road" the exhauts / pillion footrests bend the loop inwards
I had to "straighten" the loops on a couple of frames  *work* with a BFH  *bash*
I got them into a position by eye where they "looked" ok and nothing fouled
A 3/8 or 10mm bar which ever is a good fit in the pillion rest mounting holes should pass through from one side to the other when they are "straight" (ish)

The swing arm spindle needs to be a good tight fit in the frame plates, 25 thou at the spindle would give a lot of movement at the rear axle, I have repaired the frame holes by building up with weld and filing / grinding to give a tight fit

John
1961 Super Rocket
1963 RGS (ongoing)

Offline Stillwaters

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Re: 1960 Super Rocket frame measurement required please
« Reply #6 on: 23.03. 2017 20:55 »
Thanks. The 25 thou I mentioned was between the swingarm and frame loop when the slight wear in the spindle hole is taken up.

I shall fit the rear hub (I have no rim on it) and see how things look 'central wise' and then do as you suggest and bend the loop out a tad.

Thanks again.

Phil
1960 Super Rocket
1966 A65 Hornet
1962 Triton 500
1979 NVT Easy Rider
1972 BSA Ariel 3
1979 Suzuki Intruder 700 Rhino Trike

Offline Stillwaters

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Re: 1960 Super Rocket frame measurement required please
« Reply #7 on: 09.03. 2018 09:51 »
Continuing with my 1960 Super Rocket swing arm rebuild I purchased a pre-owned hollow spindle off of EBAY. It slid into the frame holes fine but the threaded end didn't protrude through the frame gusset enough to allow the nut to be screwed fully on.

I eventually found measurements for the hollow swing arm spindle on this forum and compared the measurements to mine.  I was looking for 10 5/8" from the face of the drive side pear-shaped retainer to the end of the threaded portions.  Ooops mine measures about 1/2" shorter than this so which explains why the nut won't go on!  *sad2*

Can anyone suggest what model the hollow spindle I have inadvertently bought might off please?

Also, regarding the silent bloc bushes I have been doing some investigating (You Tube) and I am going to cast my own bushes using either a liquid rubber or tufnol twin pack solution.  This is common practice in the auto industry and I can't see why it shouldn't work for this application.

The swing arm bearing is a simple but interesting design but I suspect it's design might be a little misunderstood. 

In the late 1960s I was in correspondnce with Stan Shenton of triumph racing fame about my Triton project.  The discussions centred around the pros and cons of fitting different engins into the Norton Featherbed frame.  Mr Shenton said that he had no experience of fitting a triumph unit into a Featherbed frame and their might be issues with resonance and harmonics.

This took my investigations into a totally different direction unearthing facts like a new factory race bike was brought into the pits with the rider complaining of bad vibration.  One of the old school mechanics cured the problem in ten minutes and the bike went on to finish without further vibration problems.

What the race mechanic did was pour molten lead into the handlebar thereby damping out resonance starting at the engine and moving into the frame and cycle parts.

Some years later I was talking to a engineer at Lotus cars about optimum tyre choice for my then new Talbot Sunbeam Lotus.  I was advised that the Pirelli Tyres factory fitted were the best option because unusually, they had a tread pattern which was not continuous around the tyre; it changed pattern half-way round. 

The Lotus engineer explained that early tests on the prototype cars found that due to the cars light weight and absence of shell cross-bracing the tyre tread pattern on running against the road would set up a high frequency vibration which travelled up the offside suspension into the body shell, across the roof panel and into the diagonally opposite suspension leg causing that wheel to run out of balance!

Back to the BSA A10 Silent Bloc Bushes I suspect that yes they would have provided a degree of torsional damping of the up/down action of the rear wheel as well as lateral stability of the swing arm but I wonder if the rubber also dampens out the resonance set up by the rear chain running over the sprocket which might otherwise have found a sympathetic or harmonic resonance in the frame itself or handlebars or foot pegs?

Vibrations are silent and invisible but when finding sympathetic harmonious structures to amplify or exacerbate them they can become totally destructive certainly very unpleasant for the rider.

And of course they are cheap!

Safe riding.

1960 Super Rocket
1966 A65 Hornet
1962 Triton 500
1979 NVT Easy Rider
1972 BSA Ariel 3
1979 Suzuki Intruder 700 Rhino Trike

Online Greybeard

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Re: 1960 Super Rocket frame measurement required please
« Reply #8 on: 09.03. 2018 10:07 »
Some interesting stuff. What did other contemporary bikes have for swing-arm pivots?
Greybeard (Neil)
2023 Gold Star
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Offline duTch

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Re: 1960 Super Rocket frame measurement required please
« Reply #9 on: 09.03. 2018 10:34 »

 I'm sure there's differing reasons, but have to ask why people replace their Silentboloc bushes ?
Started building in about 1977/8 a on average '52 A10 -built from bits 'n pieces never resto intended -maybe 'personalised'
Have a '74 850T Moto Guzzi since '92-best thing I ever bought doesn't need a kickstart 'cos it bump starts sooooooooo(mostly) easy
Australia

Offline chaterlea25

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Re: 1960 Super Rocket frame measurement required please
« Reply #10 on: 09.03. 2018 10:56 »
Hi Dutch and All,
Some reasons for changing the silentbloc bushes
On a high % of A7/10's the swing arm spindle will have corroded or seized into the bushes *problem*
This often means that the spindle has to be cut/ drilled free from the frame in order to repaint or what ever

If the spindle nut has been left loose the frame and spindle will wear, back to problem 1

If the swing arm is to be powder coated the rubber will not withstand the high temps involved

Owners see cracking on the outer surface of the rubber and assume its perished through so want to replace the bushes

John
1961 Super Rocket
1963 RGS (ongoing)

Offline Stillwaters

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Re: 1960 Super Rocket frame measurement required please
« Reply #11 on: 09.03. 2018 18:48 »
So does anyone know what this hollow spindle that is around 1/2"too short might be off? Thanks.
1960 Super Rocket
1966 A65 Hornet
1962 Triton 500
1979 NVT Easy Rider
1972 BSA Ariel 3
1979 Suzuki Intruder 700 Rhino Trike

Offline duTch

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Re: 1960 Super Rocket frame measurement required please
« Reply #12 on: 09.03. 2018 20:32 »

 Thanks John. The main reason for my curiousity  is because it sounds like a lot of headache to do the job and some cases *sound to me* like the bushes are still quite serviceable and being removed 'just because'...In the unlikely event that I had a swingarm with these, I'd seriously consider a  method of surface finish that doesn't require them be removed if they are still serviceable.

 I had my Gutzzi frame done about 20 years ago in some kind of epoxy but didn't do the swing arm for some reason, but did have it and some other bits powder coated since. I can't notice the difference- but don't sit admiring it, even over the past 2 weeks while it's apart to fix an oil leak.
Started building in about 1977/8 a on average '52 A10 -built from bits 'n pieces never resto intended -maybe 'personalised'
Have a '74 850T Moto Guzzi since '92-best thing I ever bought doesn't need a kickstart 'cos it bump starts sooooooooo(mostly) easy
Australia

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Re: 1960 Super Rocket frame measurement required please
« Reply #13 on: 10.03. 2018 19:52 »
G'day Stillwaters.
I can't say for certain but it could be from a single. Or another dodgy repro job.
Cheers
'51 A7 plunger, '57 A7SS racer now a A10CR, '78 XT500, '83 CB1100F, 88 HD FXST, 2000 CBR929RR ex Honda Australia Superbike .
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