Author Topic: Confession (anti-wet sumping valve)  (Read 682 times)

Offline Seabee

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Confession (anti-wet sumping valve)
« on: 09.10. 2018 21:24 »
I have always kind of pooh poohed the whole hysteria over anti-wet sumping check valves. I've had one on the Super Rocket for 15 years and it works great! I bought a different brand for the Road Rocket when I rebuilt it, because I couldn't find the same brand. I was doing my fall "cycling of the fleet" when I fired up the Road Rocket for the first time in at least a year. THANK GOD I also installed an oil pressure gauge on it. As it was idling up I noticed that there was zero oil pressure! Upon further investigation, the ball in the valve had stuck just enough that the oil pump could not unseat it. I imagine some moisture in the oil had settled around the ball and lightly seized it to the seat. It took little to free it up again, but then it went into the spare parts bin and a standard fitting was installed. I have a sump plate installed with a drain plug, so I'll just have to stop being so lazy and drain off what leaks through before I ride it. It is my show piece and rarely gets ridden anyway. The Super Rocket is the "rider quality" bike and gets ridden often enough to keep everything loose and nimble! Just thought I'd add this story to the great many out there.
1961 Super Rocket
1957 Road Rocket
2009 Harley Electra Glide Classic
1993 Harley Springer Softtail
1970 Harley Sportster Chopper
1957 Harley Panhead Chopper
1982 Yamaha XT550
2001 KTM EXC 400
1970 Honda CT70
Southern Illinois, USA

Offline Greybeard

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Re: Confession (anti-wet sumping valve)
« Reply #1 on: 09.10. 2018 21:35 »
Since I changed the check valve ball and spring; the one at the top of the pick-up pipe, my bike only retains the small amount of oil that should be in the sump after running. The engine has to be split to change that ball.

Online RichardL

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Re: Confession (anti-wet sumping valve)
« Reply #2 on: 10.10. 2018 02:50 »
Since I changed the check valve ball and spring; the one at the top of the pick-up pipe, my bike only retains the small amount of oil that should be in the sump after running. The engine has to be split to change that ball.

GB,

You say, "the one at the top of the pick-up pipe." Is that a plunger thing vs. the ball at the bottom of Popeye's pipe in a swingarm? Then you say, "The engine has to be split to change that ball." I know which one you mean, but I think there is a phrase missing to explain your point.

Now, about "check valves," I need to look up the real name for these types of valves that allow flow only when suction is present on the back side. I think of "check valves" as allowing all flow in the flow direction. I could be wrong, but you've noticed that.

Richard L.
Plan on signing up for the world-wide 2020 DISTINGUISHED GENTLEMAN'S RIDEon September 27, 2020 (if it's not cancelled and we are free to move about by then). Watch website at https://www.gentlemansride.com for details.

Online RichardL

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Re: Confession (anti-wet sumping valve)
« Reply #3 on: 10.10. 2018 03:23 »
Answering my own question. Just learned the term "cracking pressure" as applies to check valves. The in-line anti-sumping check valves only reach cracking pressure with suction on the downstream side in conjunction with oil by gravity on the upstream side. Duh!

Richard L.
Plan on signing up for the world-wide 2020 DISTINGUISHED GENTLEMAN'S RIDEon September 27, 2020 (if it's not cancelled and we are free to move about by then). Watch website at https://www.gentlemansride.com for details.

Online orabanda

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Re: Confession (anti-wet sumping valve)
« Reply #4 on: 10.10. 2018 03:33 »
I have a collection of anti-wet sumping valves in a box; have been removing them from my bikes.
No blow-ups because of them, but noticed that when air enters the oil galleries (ie; after having drained the oil from the tank and then re-filled during an oil change), sometimes the pump fails to prime.

Have decided that (Valentino Rossi like) I will get on my knees and bow to the bike before riding it (and also drain oil from sump plate at same time!).

To confirm the pump has primed after changing oil (especially if you continue to use the anti-sump valve), remove plugs, remove oil relief valve, and turn engine over until oil runs out of the relief valve port.

Offline Greybeard

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Re: Confession (anti-wet sumping valve)
« Reply #5 on: 10.10. 2018 11:22 »
Since I changed the check valve ball and spring; the one at the top of the pick-up pipe, my bike only retains the small amount of oil that should be in the sump after running. The engine has to be split to change that ball.
You say, "the one at the top of the pick-up pipe." Is that a plunger thing vs. the ball at the bottom of Popeye's pipe in a swingarm? Then you say, "The engine has to be split to change that ball." I know which one you mean, but I think there is a phrase missing to explain your point.

"the one at the top of the pick-up pipe." Sorry to mislead anyone; I was not thinking clearly.
As we know, the bottom of the pipe that goes into the sump has a loose ball. In the picture, you can see the top of that pickup pipe connected to the case. The spring-loaded anti-wet-sump ball valve is in the case. The picture shows the retaining screw for spring and ball. I don't know if this arrangement is only for early engines. I'm sure someone will enlighten us.

Online RichardL

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Re: Confession (anti-wet sumping valve)
« Reply #6 on: 10.10. 2018 12:11 »
Aha! The pic explains it. It is,  indeed, a plunger thing. In swingarms, the "mouthpiece" of the pick-up pipe presses into the crankcase casting just above the sump plate opening. So, not being plunger-centric, I didn't realize there was an additional tube that ran up by the anti-wetsump valve. Thanks for showing.

Richard L.
Plan on signing up for the world-wide 2020 DISTINGUISHED GENTLEMAN'S RIDEon September 27, 2020 (if it's not cancelled and we are free to move about by then). Watch website at https://www.gentlemansride.com for details.

Online RDfella

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Re: Confession (anti-wet sumping valve)
« Reply #7 on: 10.10. 2018 12:20 »
"The spring-loaded anti-wet-sump ball valve is in the case". I am confused. Which is not unusual. How can a valve on the scavenge pipe prevent wet sumping? The only oil it could restrain is that which lurks in the return to tank pipe (and oil cannot enter this pipe because the pipe exit in the tank is above the oil level). About a teaspoonfull is all this valve would hold back. Surely it's purpose is to ensure the scavenge side of the pump remains primed, not to prevent wet sumping, which comes from the feed side?
'49 B31, '49 M21, '53 DOT, '58 Flash, '00 Firestorm, Weslake sprint bike.

Offline Greybeard

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Re: Confession (anti-wet sumping valve)
« Reply #8 on: 10.10. 2018 12:36 »
"The spring-loaded anti-wet-sump ball valve is in the case". I am confused. Which is not unusual. How can a valve on the scavenge pipe prevent wet sumping? The only oil it could restrain is that which lurks in the return to tank pipe (and oil cannot enter this pipe because the pipe exit in the tank is above the oil level). About a teaspoonfull is all this valve would hold back. Surely it's purpose is to ensure the scavenge side of the pump remains primed, not to prevent wet sumping, which comes from the feed side?
BSA describe it as an Oil retaining ball. You may be right. I understood that changing this ball, or even reseating the old one was a possible cure for wet-sumping.

Offline a10gf

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Online RichardL

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Re: Confession (anti-wet sumping valve)
« Reply #10 on: 10.10. 2018 12:44 »
GB isn't talking about the ball in the scavenge pipe but the one that sits behind the pump and is serviced via the screw that looks like a pimple to the left of the pipe end in GB's pic. It's restraining oil from seepinig past the pump supply gears.

Richard L.

Edit: OK, it doesn't look so much like a pimple when you expand the pic.

Edit2: I didn't catch that A10GF posted pics before my "pimple" comment.
Plan on signing up for the world-wide 2020 DISTINGUISHED GENTLEMAN'S RIDEon September 27, 2020 (if it's not cancelled and we are free to move about by then). Watch website at https://www.gentlemansride.com for details.

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Re: Confession (anti-wet sumping valve)
« Reply #11 on: 10.10. 2018 14:33 »
About a year since I rebuilt my GF engine, so memory's not sharp on that valve. Richard is probably right - I hadn't expanded the pic previously and thought this was part of the scavenge system.
But that raises another issue - does cleaning / reseating this valve mean a complete engine strip? On the singles you only have to remove the timing cover and give the ball a sharp tap with a punch to reseat it. If you have to strip the engine on the A series then that's a pig's ear design. As we used to say in the trade 'designed by the director's girlfriend' - well, you had to give her a job of some sort or the wife would get suspicious.
'49 B31, '49 M21, '53 DOT, '58 Flash, '00 Firestorm, Weslake sprint bike.

Offline Greybeard

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Re: Confession (anti-wet sumping valve)
« Reply #12 on: 10.10. 2018 14:42 »
A job to do when you have the engine apart for cleaning out the sludge trap?

Offline bikerbob

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Re: Confession (anti-wet sumping valve)
« Reply #13 on: 10.10. 2018 15:19 »
 Greybeard is correct about this ball and spring I recently had my 1956 A7 swingarm engine stripped down for some remedial work and I took the opportunity to replace that ball and spring and it is surprising how much the wet sumping has improved, before strip down bike stood for  just over a week and you would have in excess of pint of oil in the sump since replacing the ball and spring the bike has stood for 6 weeks because of holidays and other commitments have just drained the sump this morning and there is less than a half pint of oil drained out.

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Re: Confession (anti-wet sumping valve)
« Reply #14 on: 10.10. 2018 15:42 »
At the risk of being pedantic, I do get irritated by misconceptions. The ‘sludge trap’ we speak of was not designed to collect sludge, as some appear to think. It is simply the hole created by the need to drill the crank to get a feed to the big ends, and just happens to get bunged up when using the non-detergent oils necessary where no oil filter is fitted. BSA call it an ‘oil hole’ with ‘oil hole plug’ not a sludge trap. Engine manufacturers would much rather sell you a new engine years later than spend time / money fitting something that might obviate that sale. The only true sludge trap I can think of was on a Fiat car (if I recall correctly) where there was a centrifugal sludge trap at the end of the crankshaft rather than an oil filter.
It’s the same with ‘freeze plugs’. That one really gets me. They are ‘core’ or ‘welch’ plugs. Manufacturers certainly do not fit them to save owners from their failure to protect against frost. The plugs are there to blank off holes left by the casting process, where sand cores had to be supported in order to create the water jacket.
'49 B31, '49 M21, '53 DOT, '58 Flash, '00 Firestorm, Weslake sprint bike.