Author Topic: original oil gallery  (Read 615 times)

Online RDfella

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original oil gallery
« on: 30.12. 2018 15:39 »
After ten days in hospital followed by a month recovering from the delight of being there I finally got the urge to start up the GF. It usually starts first kick, so I was surprised to get a hard kick-back at every prod. Odd, as nothing had been touched since I last rode it five or so weeks ago. Thought I’d check the sump whilst pondering the situation and, sure enough, entire contents of the oil tank were in the sump. Rather than filtering it and putting back as I usually do, I decided to put in some fresh 30. Tried to start it again and it fired first kick.
Which brings me to the wet-sumping issue – of which I’m getting rather tired. I don’t see why I should have to spend ten minutes on my knees draining oil before I can ride a bike, especially as none of my other bikes (some are BSA’s) are so severely afflicted.

My next job on the GF is to get her on the ramp and pull the dynamo which, like most things Lucas, doesn’t work. Of course, that’ll be an ideal time to pull the oil pump and fix – or at least alleviate – the wet-sumping.
Now I’m aware this subject has been discussed at length not long ago – indeed I recall adding my own comments – but what I need here is some clarity regarding the original (non-modified to roller main) set-up.
To have to completely strip an engine just to get to a ball valve has to be the height of bad engineering practise so, if anyone has a crankcase half on the bench (or has recently removed the screw locating the anti-sumping spring,) can they enlighten me as to the cross-section of the gallery it sits in?
My idea is that it should be possible to drill from the pump side and extract the ball and spring and replace with a spacer / spring so the ball then seats against the pump body. I attach two pics – one of the SRM conversion, and a modified pic showing what I presume is the original situation.
'49 B31, '49 M21, '53 DOT, '58 Flash, '00 Firestorm, Weslake sprint bike.

Offline coater87

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Re: original oil gallery
« Reply #1 on: 30.12. 2018 22:30 »
 I feel bad for you RD.  *sad2*

 I would March that motor right back down to the engineer that did the work and chew him a new ass for being incompetent.

 I think these are very easy motors to work on, even for a complete novice mechanic who can follow a few simple procedures.

 I would split the cases if you are going to drill. No matter how much grease you put in to collect swarf you never get it all.

 On top of that a magnet won't help you out. I think you will run chips through the entire motor and have even more problems.

 Lee

Central Wisconsin in the U.S.

Online chaterlea25

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Re: original oil gallery
« Reply #2 on: 30.12. 2018 23:04 »
Hi All,
If a compressed air line was to be connected to the PRV side of the oil gallery to the main bearing while the oilway
was being enlarged the swarf should be blown back along the drill flutes *conf2* *bright idea*
OK I'm not going to be the guineapig to try this
But I have helecoiled a few sparkplug holes using the airline method and open valve without removing the cylinder head, at the owners insistance  *eek*

John
1961 Super Rocket
1963 RGS (ongoing)

Offline coater87

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Re: original oil gallery
« Reply #3 on: 31.12. 2018 01:12 »
OK I'm not going to be the guineapig to try this
But I have helecoiled a few sparkplug holes using the airline method and open valve without removing the cylinder head, at the owners insistance  *eek*

John

 Timing plug hole on harley too. Always swarf left inside.

 Even if the air works great, there is always going to be that bit of doubt nagging you.

 Lee
Central Wisconsin in the U.S.

Offline worntorn

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Re: original oil gallery
« Reply #4 on: 31.12. 2018 02:03 »
After ten days in hospital followed by a month recovering from the delight of being there I finally got the urge to start up the GF. It usually starts first kick, so I was surprised to get a hard kick-back at every prod. Odd, as nothing had been touched since I last rode it five or so weeks ago. Thought I’d check the sump whilst pondering the situation and, sure enough, entire contents of the oil tank were in the sump. Rather than filtering it and putting back as I usually do, I decided to put in some fresh 30. Tried to start it again and it fired first kick.
Which brings me to the wet-sumping issue – of which I’m getting rather tired. I don’t see why I should have to spend ten minutes on my knees draining oil before I can ride a bike, especially as none of my other bikes (some are BSA’s) are so severely afflicted.

My next job on the GF is to get her on the ramp and pull the dynamo which, like most things Lucas, doesn’t work. Of course, that’ll be an ideal time to pull the oil pump and fix – or at least alleviate – the wet-sumping.
Now I’m aware this subject has been discussed at length not long ago – indeed I recall adding my own comments – but what I need here is some clarity regarding the original (non-modified to roller main) set-up.
To have to completely strip an engine just to get to a ball valve has to be the height of bad engineering practise so, if anyone has a crankcase half on the bench (or has recently removed the screw locating the anti-sumping spring,) can they enlighten me as to the cross-section of the gallery it sits in?
My idea is that it should be possible to drill from the pump side and extract the ball and spring and replace with a spacer / spring so the ball then seats against the pump body. I attach two pics – one of the SRM conversion, and a modified pic showing what I presume is the original situation.

I expect some won't care for it, but I installed a ballvalve on a problem wetsumper after all other remedial methods failed.
Strangely my BSA SR doesn't have need for such a thing, it's good for almost two months of sitting before it wetsumps badly enough to require draining. So I just make sure to start it now and then.
But I feel your pain,  I have some that are much less continent than the BSA.

The nice thing is that with the valve fitted, the bike doesn't make a mess on the floor even when parked up for months.
So it gets parked with the modern bikes.

You must have an ignition switch for  this setup to work. The key, or lack of it, is the failsafe.
I would not recommend any kind of valve that requires the operator to have a functioning memory. I also would not recommend any of the spring loaded automatic valves that are fitted in the feed line.

Glen


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Re: original oil gallery
« Reply #5 on: 31.12. 2018 15:08 »
Coater - I rebuilt the engine (have 50+ yrs of engine design / building to rely on). Had I known what a stupid design that ball valve was, I'd have re-designed it whilst the engine was apart, but wasn't aware at the time that this was an achilles heel. At least with the singles, one only needs to remove the timing cover and give the ball a tap with a punch to cure any wet-sumping. Have no intention of another strip down at present. If it ever does gets that far, I'll probably sling the engine and fit one of my own instead.

Chaterlea - that's exactly what I had in mind - an air hose to the pressure release port at, say, 20psi. Presumably, when I've got the pump off (still waiting to get the bike to my other workshop and on the lift) I'll be able to feel that ball with a piece of wire - and thereby mesaure the length of spacer I'll need behind the old spring?
In the meantime, can anyone confirm my diagram of what I presume that gallery looks like is approximately correct?
Thanks to everyone for extending a helping hand.
'49 B31, '49 M21, '53 DOT, '58 Flash, '00 Firestorm, Weslake sprint bike.

Online muskrat

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Re: original oil gallery
« Reply #6 on: 31.12. 2018 19:12 »
G'day RD.
That's pretty much it, less the galleries to the let and g.
Cheers
'51 A7 plunger, '57 A7SS now A10CR, '76 XT500, '77 AG175 '83 CB1100F, '81 CB900F project.
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Re: original oil gallery
« Reply #7 on: 31.12. 2018 21:45 »
Yes RD fella, it seems that the spring is not strong enough to seat the ball with enough pressure to make a good seal, so if it was strong enough would the pump be able to overcome it ? Dunno what do you think, a test arrangement would have to be set up but nobody has been bothered enough to sort it, cheers
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Re: original oil gallery
« Reply #8 on: 31.12. 2018 22:31 »
G'day kp.
I may be way off here.
I'm certainly no mathematician but to my way of thinking  *whistle*. Water has a SG of 1 and a head height of 1 foot gives a pressure of 0.433 pounds/sq". Oil is about 0.9 SG and would give 0.389 pounds/sq" at the ball valve.  So in theory the spring would only need to exert a little more pressure than that on the ball. A spring of 1/2 Lb should be ample.
Cheers
'51 A7 plunger, '57 A7SS now A10CR, '76 XT500, '77 AG175 '83 CB1100F, '81 CB900F project.
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Muskys Plunger A7

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Re: original oil gallery
« Reply #9 on: 01.01. 2019 00:07 »
Hi Musky, yeah all the maths probably don’t come into it as atmospheric pressure is the same no matter what height we are discussing which is :14.7lb or 100 Kpa height and size of oil pipe will determine volume. In any case I don’t know if any of this would make any difference as the oil has to trace through the pump first , the pump pressure as we know is fine when motor is going but do we know what the stationary pressure is on the ball? I am guessing that if the pump can produce 50/80lb then the spring could be increased to make a good seal, cheers.
 Ps. Would a ceramic ball be better/easier to push off of the seat?
 
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Online Brian

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Re: original oil gallery
« Reply #10 on: 01.01. 2019 00:20 »
What about something along these lines.

This is a neoprene non return valve, this particular one is about 15mm in dia so a bit large but I'm sure they are available in smaller diameters. They have a "O" ring around the outside for a seal and the plunger seats against a neoprene seat. Hard to tell just by pushing it but the plunger doesnt take much pressure to lift it off its seat. I'm thinking you would drill out the gallery behind the pump just as though you were changing to the A65 set up but push one of these in instead. Some research would have to be done to ensure they are capable of standing the heat and oil but otherwise seem to be ok.

The other alternative to all this is to just ride your bike more often.

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Re: original oil gallery
« Reply #11 on: 01.01. 2019 02:47 »
G'day Brian.
I like your other alternative. Going for a ride to test it.
Cheers
'51 A7 plunger, '57 A7SS now A10CR, '76 XT500, '77 AG175 '83 CB1100F, '81 CB900F project.
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Online RDfella

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Re: original oil gallery
« Reply #12 on: 01.01. 2019 10:26 »
Nice to see so many alternative ideas. Bit like a design team think-tank. I appreciate the view I should ride the GF more often, but I have other bikes, some classic cars and a few other interests that conspire to reduce my riding time. The GF usually gets a ride around once a week (in decent weather) so the oil-in-sump aggravation is one that's really getting on my wick. As I've posted elsewhere, both my BSA B31 and M21 wet-sump, but to a far lesser degree. Also, one can ride them to clear the sump if necessary, whereas the GF belches out smoke and pours oil out of the breather if I try that. And, as stated a couple of posts ago, they can easily be fixed anyway by giving the ball a tap with a punch. The A10 requires a full engine strip to do that. Madness. No wonder BSA woke up and modified the system for the A65.
The valve in oil line approach is risky and if using a key requires a bit of re-wiring too. What I'm looking for is the easiest / cheapest / most reliable way to solve the issue and it seems to me that converting to the A65 type set-up is the answer. Of course, the ideal time to do that is when an engine is stripped but, at the time I had it down, I was unaware of this design weakness. When I get around to pulling the cover and pump, if I find the conversion I propose feasible, I intend using an air blast through the pressure release valve orifice to help clear swarf and to drill slowly with coarse feed, thereby minimising small chip production. A second air gun with small tube placed at the rear of the hole should guarantee no swarf gets where it shouldn't.
Best wishes to everyone for 2019.
'49 B31, '49 M21, '53 DOT, '58 Flash, '00 Firestorm, Weslake sprint bike.

Offline wortluck

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Re: original oil gallery
« Reply #13 on: 01.01. 2019 12:08 »
Just to add a comic moment to the discussion (it's all I can do 'cause I'm not as smart as you lot with the maths/engineering).  When I was a teenager, I had to fix a stripped spark plug hole on an old Mazda 323.  Not having a clue, I got one of my Dad's old taps, measured it against a larger spark plug (by eye) *eek*, and proceeded to cut the thread.  When I'd finished, and being concerned about swarf in the cylinder, I took the other plugs out and spun it over a few times (to eject the swarf). :o  Amazingly, the plug went straight in and it ran perfectly for years after. *beer*  I also reasoned that the filter would pick up the really small bits of metal. *dunno2* 

You will be pleased to know that I am far more careful with the Beeza. *good3*

Have a great New Year - Spring is on the way. *loveit*

Offline worntorn

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Re: original oil gallery
« Reply #14 on: 01.01. 2019 19:26 »

The valve in oil line approach is risky and if using a key requires a bit of re-wiring too. What I'm looking for is the easiest / cheapest / most reliable way to solve the issue

A bit of rewiring,  yes, if the bike does not already have an keyed ignition switch.
Risky, no it is not. You can't start the bike without oil flow.
It's on a one off engine I can't afford to replace, a 1360 Vincent.

The valve absolutely does stop the leakage and it was cheap/easy to do.
But I understand that it's not everyone's favourite.

Glen